God's civil law for today?

[HankD]

Paul stated that the Law is perfect, shows to us Gd character and what He demands to live, and points us to Jesus, and then we get saved by grace, and walk in the Spirit...

We desire to kee the Law beingin Christ,and the Holy Spirit given to enable to now be able to do that...

We are still uner the Law as a reference point to how sould live, bu not in how to get saved and kept!

Those like SDA use law tha way...

There are 613 laws in the Torah. About 1/3 cannot be kept because there is no sanctified Judaic temple in existence, there is no ministerial levitical priesthood.

Break one break them all.

Even if there were a temple and an authorized priesthood and you were "under the law" you could not keep it.

119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Look at verses 5 and 6.

In verse 5 David complains because he is unable to keep it.
In verse 6 David confesses that he is ashamed that he is unable to comply.

Jesus is the way not Moses, look to Jesus not Moses.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HankD

 

[Iconoclast]

Welcome to the New Covenant Theology of not being under aw ofMoses, but of Christ!

New Covenant theology has antinomian leanings, I am not interested in it, thank you.

 

[Iconoclast]

There are 613 laws in the Torah. About 1/3 cannot be kept because there is no sanctified Judaic temple in existence, there is no ministerial levitical priesthood.

Break one break them all.

Even if there were a temple and an authorized priesthood and you were "under the law" you could not keep it.

119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.
4 Thou hast commanded us to keep thy precepts diligently.
5 O that my ways were directed to keep thy statutes!
6 Then shall I not be ashamed, when I have respect unto all thy commandments.

Look at verses 5 and 6.

In verse 5 David complains because he is unable to keep it.
In verse 6 David confesses that he is ashamed that he is unable to comply.

Jesus is the way not Moses, look to Jesus not Moses.

John 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

HankD

God gave the law to Moses. Moses did not invent it. Jesus was a law keeper

JonC and Iconoclast, would it ever be possible for you to kneel down and bow before an idol of the god Shiva and worship her?

Why not? It's not because of the 10 commandments is it?

Well yes it is.....
20 And God spake all these words, saying,

2 I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 

[JonC]

JonC and Iconoclast, would it ever be possible for you to kneel down and bow before an idol of the god Shiva and worship her?

Why not? It's not because of the 10 commandments is it?
Of course not. It's repulsive to you.

It's because you love the only true God.

You don't need the law to tell you to only worship the LORD your God, the one you love.
Israel NEEDED the law and they still went after Baalim, Ashteroth, etc, etc...

To need the law implies that there is something desperately wrong with you.

Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Sheep love green pastures and pure clean water, hogs love the swill trough.

You don't have to make a law to tell sheep to stay out of the cesspool (unless the sheep is a hog in disguise).



HankD

I think you may have misunderstood my position here. I do not believe we are under the Law or the Ten Commandments (and we never were). But they did express God's moral law based on His nature. God's "moral law" is eternal because it reflects the nature of an eternal God. The problem with sin, therefore, is not that it is opposed to the Law (or the Ten Commandments) but that it is opposed to God.

I agree with Icon that the moral aspects of the Law existed in eternity past. I do not consider this to the the Ten Commandments as I do not see these given as such except within that covenant with Israel (the Law). But it has always been a sin (it has always been against God's nature and intention for man) to murder, steal, etc. - not based on the Law but on God Himself.

 

[JonC]

The Cermonial/Civil aw was just given t Israel by God, and we are under the obligation to obey the Moral Law of God, but now we do it tin the empoering from/of the Holy Spirit in us, and not to keep Law for salvation, but to please God and to enjoy right living...

I agree that the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law was given to Israel alone. But when we speak of the Law it includes those moral aspects that are embodied within that covenant (within the Old Covenant). If we speak of the moral law as a part of the Law, then it cannot be separated from the whole. Remember Paul's admonishment to Peter when he refused to eat with Gentiles (which was not a moral law). The Law cannot be broken. By that standard Peter was already transgressing the Law.

It is an issue of authority. Jews were bound under the Law ("locked up" or "held captive"). The Ten Commandments were given as a part of the Law. Icon rightly identifies the connection between the Commandments and what springs from them throughout the Law (I would include, however and first and foremost, the command to love God). But the Law (and the Ten Commandments) held a specific authority or sway over Israel. They were given as a part of God's covenant with them through Moses (the Old Covenant). Paul goes through great pains explaining that this covenant, once given, cannot be changed. It is a promise of God (and in this case it served to foreshadow Christ).

If I were to steal money from my employer, that crime would be a violation of the Ten Commandments (it would be a violation of the Law). It would also be a violation of Strafgesetzbuch (the German penal code). It would be a violation of Sharia as well. But I am not Islamic, German, or a pre-Christian era Jew. My crime would be a transgression of all of those laws, although I, myself, wouldn’t be guilty under any of them because I do not belong to the peoples over which they have authority. I would, however, be guilty of violating God’s law based on God’s own nature and "creatorship". Does that make sense?

 

[HankD]

No problem. The law is all those wonderful things everyone is saying and indeed shows forth the holy character of God Himself.

Repeat: If you are born again of the Spirit you are not under the law but led of the Spirit.

Not a difficult concept

Galatians 5
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The primary purpose of the law for Israel and now the world generally - as a witness against the wickedness and desperation of the unregenerate human heart - to restrain it and reveal its need for the glorious gospel.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

The law will be used by God to condemn the world and shut every mouth depending on personal goodness.

Romans 3
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

I think perhaps we are in agreement and talking past each other. I guess I am anyway.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

I agree that the ceremonial and civil aspects of the Law was given to Israel alone. But when we speak of the Law it includes those moral aspects that are embodied within that covenant (within the Old Covenant). If we speak of the moral law as a part of the Law, then it cannot be separated from the whole. Remember Paul's admonishment to Peter when he refused to eat with Gentiles (which was not a moral law). The Law cannot be broken. By that standard Peter was already transgressing the Law.

It is an issue of authority. Jews were bound under the Law ("locked up" or "held captive"). The Ten Commandments were given as a part of the Law. Icon rightly identifies the connection between the Commandments and what springs from them throughout the Law (I would include, however and first and foremost, the command to love God). But the Law (and the Ten Commandments) held a specific authority or sway over Israel. They were given as a part of God's covenant with them through Moses (the Old Covenant). Paul goes through great pains explaining that this covenant, once given, cannot be changed. It is a promise of God (and in this case it served to foreshadow Christ).

If I were to steal money from my employer, that crime would be a violation of the Ten Commandments (it would be a violation of the Law). It would also be a violation of Strafgesetzbuch (the German penal code). It would be a violation of Sharia as well. But I am not Islamic, German, or a pre-Christian era Jew. My crime would be a transgression of all of those laws, although I, myself, wouldn’t be guilty under any of them because I do not belong to the peoples over which they have authority. I would, however, be guilty of violating God’s law based on God’s own nature and "creatorship". Does that make sense?

Yes, as all are help accountable to breaking the Moral law of God in our lives, but as you pointed out well, those of us now under New Covenant do not have the same view as its administration over us as Israel had under Old Covenant.

The Law points out to me when/where have sinned, but the Cross is my solution to that, and are now to live in enabling grace of the Holy Spirit now residing in me...

 

[JonC]

Yes, as all are help accountable to breaking the Moral law of God in our lives, but as you pointed out well, those of us now under New Covenant do not have the same view as its administration over us as Israel had under Old Covenant.

The Law points out to me when/where have sinned, but the Cross is my solution to that, and are now to live in enabling grace of the Holy Spirit now residing in me...

I've found over and over again that even atheists have a sense of sin as they typically will acknowledge that they have done wrong (that they have failed to live up to their standard of life). The difference between this and a biblical concept of sin is that the atheist views sin as a wrong against man rather than God. We need to be careful that we do not focus on sin but on God. What I mean is that people readily agree that they have at some time in their lives broken one of the Ten Commandments. This is where I think we need to focus more on the holiness of God and the guilt incurred based on His perfect nature than we do the Law itself (this is what the Law pointed to). It's not about becoming right with the Law but being made right with God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hank

]No problem. The law is all those wonderful things everyone is saying and indeed shows forth the holy character of God Himself.

Repeat: If you are born again of the Spirit you are not under the law but led of the Spirit.

Not a difficult concept

from precept Austin;
(1) First, there is an expected pattern of behavior. There is a law, if you like, a code, to which we are expected to conform.

Many Christians make the mistake of thinking that to be free from legalism you must become free from any law whatsoever. Nothing is further from the truth. The Scriptures never endorse that notion. I know that we sing,

Free from the Law, O happy condition

Jesus hath bled, and there is remission,

but what we are talking about is not freedom from the Law but freedom from the curse of the Law (Ed note: In other words, the law cannot condemn Christians because Christ has fully paid the penalty of the law). That is something quite different.

There always must be law. This is a law-governed universe because the law reflects the character of God. God Himself is reality. God is behind all things, and His character is the law which governs everything. Therefore Christians must always be related to law -- the law of the character of Christ, of the law of the Ten Commandments -- it is the same thing. The Ten Commandments simply describe the nature of God's character. So true Christianity isn't freedom from the existence of law. There is always a standard, always a code of conduct to be observed. That is essential. But be careful what the standard is! You can go wrong selecting the law. You can be legalistic in the standard you have set.

(3) The third essential is a motive which moves us to action -- a powerful, compelling hunger for the glory of God, an urge that God be honored and glorified.

If I can put all the foregoing in another way, the true Christian life is fulfilling a law by means of a unique power because of an overwhelming desire.

It requires: An outward standard or code of behavior, an inward power which makes it possible to meet it, and a motive which drives us on to do so.

But it takes all three. You cannot manifest genuine Christianity without all three. If it fails at any one point it immediately becomes legality. The other two can be perfect and yet it still will be legality. You can go wrong at any one of three places.


A similar truth about the believers freedom in Christ is presented in Romans 8 where Paul states that…

the law (principle) of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law (principle) of sin and of death (see note Romans 8:2)

In this Romans 8 passage Paul is telling us that even in the face of an unceasing internal spiritual war, victory is possible because of the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling every believer and energizing our new inner man for victory over the sin and the flesh. Hallelujah! The war will continue, but victory can be ours in the individual battles that are being waged in our mind and heart daily and even moment by moment

 

[HankD]

Iconoclast, I agree with your warning:

"But be careful what the standard is! You can go wrong selecting the law. You can be legalistic in the standard you have set".

Luke 18
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

HankD

 

[JonC]

Hank

from precept Austin;
(1) First, there is an expected pattern of behavior. There is a law, if you like, a code, to which we are expected to conform.

Many Christians make the mistake of thinking that to be free from legalism you must become free from any law whatsoever. Nothing is further from the truth. The Scriptures never endorse that notion. I know that we sing,

Free from the Law, O happy condition

Jesus hath bled, and there is remission,

but what we are talking about is not freedom from the Law but freedom from the curse of the Law (Ed note: In other words, the law cannot condemn Christians because Christ has fully paid the penalty of the law). That is something quite different.

There always must be law. This is a law-governed universe because the law reflects the character of God. God Himself is reality. God is behind all things, and His character is the law which governs everything. Therefore Christians must always be related to law -- the law of the character of Christ, of the law of the Ten Commandments -- it is the same thing. The Ten Commandments simply describe the nature of God's character. So true Christianity isn't freedom from the existence of law. There is always a standard, always a code of conduct to be observed. That is essential. But be careful what the standard is! You can go wrong selecting the law. You can be legalistic in the standard you have set.

(3) The third essential is a motive which moves us to action -- a powerful, compelling hunger for the glory of God, an urge that God be honored and glorified.

If I can put all the foregoing in another way, the true Christian life is fulfilling a law by means of a unique power because of an overwhelming desire.

It requires: An outward standard or code of behavior, an inward power which makes it possible to meet it, and a motive which drives us on to do so.

But it takes all three. You cannot manifest genuine Christianity without all three. If it fails at any one point it immediately becomes legality. The other two can be perfect and yet it still will be legality. You can go wrong at any one of three places.


A similar truth about the believers freedom in Christ is presented in Romans 8 where Paul states that…

the law (principle) of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law (principle) of sin and of death (see note Romans 8:2)

In this Romans 8 passage Paul is telling us that even in the face of an unceasing internal spiritual war, victory is possible because of the presence of the Holy Spirit indwelling every believer and energizing our new inner man for victory over the sin and the flesh. Hallelujah! The war will continue, but victory can be ours in the individual battles that are being waged in our mind and heart daily and even moment by moment

If I understand correctly, we are free but we are free in Christ. Our freedom, if we truly practice this freedom, always results in obedience (disobedience is to once again fall under the power of sin).

 

[HankD]

If I understand correctly, we are free but we are free in Christ. Our freedom, if we truly practice this freedom, always results in obedience (disobedience is to once again fall under the power of sin).

There is an issue in churches where there is law, any law, but it is misplaced on those who do not need the law.
Legalism is a disease which infects many, maybe most Christians because they do not understand the primary basis of the law.

Condemnation of our depravity and restraint of that depravity plain and simple.

If you need ANY law apart from the love of love infused into your spirit by the Holy Spirit you are either a sick sheep or perhaps not a sheep at all.

As I said you do not need a law to keep the sheep out of the cesspool unless of course the sheep is a hog in disguise.

Here is another analogy: What would happen if you went to a doctor and complained that you have Dutch Elm disease?

IMO that is equivalent to Christians who say they must keep the 10 commandments (the law).

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
...
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

However:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If any of these things typify one's life then they should examine their life, their walk in life to determine whether one's faith is of the head or of the heart.

This is what should typify the Christians life without the threat of the curse of the law

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If one behaves like a sheep (b-a-a-a, b-a-a-a) and does sheep things out of his sheep nature then he is a sheep; if one behaves like a pig (oink, oink) and does piggy things, chances are he is a pig.



HankD

 

[JonC]

There is an issue in churches where there is law, any law, but it is misplaced on those who do not need the law.
Legalism is a disease which infects many, maybe most Christians because they do not understand the primary basis of the law.

Condemnation of our depravity and restraint of that depravity plain and simple.

If you need ANY law apart from the love of love infused into your spirit by the Holy Spirit you are either a sick sheep or perhaps not a sheep at all.

As I said you do not need a law to keep the sheep out of the cesspool unless of course the sheep is a hog in disguise.

Here is another analogy: What would happen if you went to a doctor and complained that you have Dutch Elm disease?

IMO that is equivalent to Christians who say they must keep the 10 commandments (the law).

Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
...
5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
...
23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

However:
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

If any of these things typify one's life then they should examine their life, their walk in life to determine whether one's faith is of the head or of the heart.

This is what should typify the Christians life without the threat of the curse of the law

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

If one behaves like a sheep (b-a-a-a, b-a-a-a) and does sheep things out of his sheep nature then he is a sheep; if one behaves like a pig (oink, oink) and does piggy things, chances are he is a pig.



HankD

I believe that this is why Paul tells us to judge within the church, to exercise discipline, and to expel the wicked and the unrepentant.

When we are walking in the Light we are walking as believers. However, when we are walking in the darkness we are not walking as believers. Our walk reflects our states (even within those who are saved....i.e., "I believe, God help my unbelief". We can look at God's commandments and see if we are obeying them. We don't obey to be saved, but if we are saved then the fruit of that salvation is obedience.

 

[Iconoclast]

If I understand correctly, we are free but we are free in Christ. Our freedom, if we truly practice this freedom, always results in obedience (disobedience is to once again fall under the power of sin).

yes......gal5
13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

 

[Iconoclast]

I believe that this is why Paul tells us to judge within the church, to exercise discipline, and to expel the wicked and the unrepentant.

When we are walking in the Light we are walking as believers. However, when we are walking in the darkness we are not walking as believers. Our walk reflects our states (even within those who are saved....i.e., "I believe, God help my unbelief". We can look at God's commandments and see if we are obeying them. We don't obey to be saved, but if we are saved then the fruit of that salvation is obedience.

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Jesus was the True Image bearer....He was the True light...a law keeper....He always DID the Fathers will.....We are to seek to do the same....
8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

9 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth

10 Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

 

[HankD]

I believe that this is why Paul tells us to judge within the church, to exercise discipline, and to expel the wicked and the unrepentant.

When we are walking in the Light we are walking as believers. However, when we are walking in the darkness we are not walking as believers. Our walk reflects our states (even within those who are saved....i.e., "I believe, God help my unbelief". We can look at God's commandments and see if we are obeying them. We don't obey to be saved, but if we are saved then the fruit of that salvation is obedience.

IMO, It's not a question so much of obedience but of love.

Revelation 2:4 ... I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

HankD