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God's Covenant with Abraham

Martin Marprelate

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It is hard to know how to approach this post; there is a bewildering amount of information on Abraham to be found in both Old and New Testaments. Also, the Abrahamic Covenant is the most controversial of all the covenants, having been very much tied in with the question of baptism. Now it goes without saying that Abraham was not himself baptized, nor did he ever baptize anyone, but nonetheless, paedobaptists argue that since male infants were circumcised in ancient Israel, the infant children of Christians ought to be baptized. In my opinion it is an error to start looking at a New Testament ordinance in the Old Testament; we should start with Christ, the Author and Perfecter of our faith (Heb 12:2). Here we shall consider the Abrahamic Covenant as a whole, but I hope to touch upon the question later.

The covenant with Abraham is revealed to us in four stages:-

Gen 12:1-3. The covenant Announced. The word ‘covenant’ is not mentioned here but Peter in Acts 3:25 makes it clear that God’s initial promises to Abram were part of the covenant. The three part of the covenant, Land, Nation, Seed are made clear.

Gen 15. The Covenant Transacted. The word ‘covenant’ is used in connection with Abraham for the first time, and a sacrifice is made. It is important to note that circumcision is not part of the covenant at this stage. The blessings promised to Abram are on the basis of his faith alone.

Gen 17. The Covenant Instituted. He receives a new name, and the sign of the covenant, circumcision,

Gen 23. The Covenant Confirmed. Abraham’s faith is proved by his actions (cf. Heb 11:17) and the promises repeated.

The Abrahamic Covenant, like the covenants with Noah and David, is a ‘covenant of promise’ (Ephesians 2:12). The word ‘promise’ is used very frequently in the New Testament with reference to Abraham (Acts 7:5; Rom 4:12; 9:4-9; Gal 3:5-29; 4:28; Heb 6:13-20; 11:9, 13, 17). The promises are ‘in Christ’ (Gal 3:17; cf. 2Cor 1:20) as well as ‘of Christ’ (Gal 3:16); that is, they refer to Christ and are for those who are His by faith. The ‘Seed of the woman,’ spoken of in Gen 3:15, is shown to be also the Seed of Abraham, but the blessing is to the whole world. The promises are entirely gracious. There was nothing in Abraham to make him worthy of being the recipient of these promises. He was not brought up in a household that worshipped Yahveh; ‘Your fathers, including Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, dwelt on the other side of the river in old times: and they served other gods’ (Joshua 24:2-3). It was not the piety of Abraham which commended him to God, but grace alone through God’s sovereign election. Nor could Abraham do anything to bring the promises about; he and Sarah might have been married for about fifty years before ever God spoke to him (cf. Gen 12:4), and they were doubtless already resigned to childlessness, but God was pleased to show him unmerited favour.

With whom was the Abrahamic Covenant made? Only with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. These last two received the Abrahamic promises not through their relationship to Abraham, but directly from God (Genesis 26:2-5; 28:12-15). The covenant is made with no one else. If I believe that God is going to make a great nation out of me, or make me a blessing to all nations, or give my descendants the Land of Canaan as a possession, I am more than likely to be deceiving myself. Nor could an Israelite appropriate the promises to himself; any of Abraham’s descendants other than Isaac and Jacob might be childless. But when we place our faith in the promised Seed, we may appropriate the promised blessing as we become a child of Abraham by faith (Galatians 3:7) and inherit the heavenly country that Abraham sought and found (Hebrews 11:15-16). The covenant ‘with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob’ is repeatedly mentioned in Scripture (Exodus 2:24; 32:13; Lev 26:42; Num 32:11; 2Kings 13:23; 1Chron 16:16ff; Psalms 105:9 etc.) but no one else is ever spoken of as being in the covenant with them.

We have said that the covenant promises to Abraham were of land, nation and seed. Each of these has both an earthly and a heavenly fulfilment. There is an earthly land of Canaan which the Israelites eventually came to inherit, but we are told in Romans 4:13 that the promise was for the whole world (cf. Matt 5:5; Rev 5:10), and in Hebrews 11:16 that Abraham looked forward to a heavenly city. These are fundamentally the same promise and refer to the new heavens and new earth and also to the heavenly Jerusalem of Rev 21;1-3 which Abraham will inherit along with all believers at the end of time. Likewise, there was an earthly nation descended from Abraham who came to live in Canaan, but we learn from Galatians 3:7 that believers of all nations are his true descendants and it is they who will inherit the heavenly promises.

This brings us nicely on to the two seeds of Abraham; for there are two seeds with two different promises. Firstly, there is a physical seed to whom are given physical promises- a great nation and a physical land for it to dwell in. These promises were received by Israel in full (Josh 21:43-45). This seed ‘after the flesh’ (Gal 4:29) is represented by Ishmael. It is most important to understand that Ishmael is not in the Covenant. ‘And Abraham said to God, “Oh, that Ishmael might live before you!” Then God said, “No, Sarah your wife shall bear you a son and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish My covenant with him”’ (Gen 17:18-19). Nothing could be clearer than this; Ishmael is not in the covenant, although he receives the covenant sign (v26). Ishmael, though not an Israelite, is a type of Israel after the flesh. He receives the earthly promises (Genesis 17:20) and the outward sign, but not the spiritual blessings (Gal 4:30; Acts 7:51-53). He persecutes the True Seed (Gen 21:9; John 8:37ff; Gal 4:29). His circumcision is of no avail to him since he lacks what circumcision symbolized; a humble, circumcised heart (Jeremiah 9:25-26).

There is also a spiritual seed of Abraham; those who are in Christ, the True Seed, by faith. These are they who are looking for a heavenly country just as Abraham was. Just as Abraham did not receive an earthly inheritance in his lifetime (Acts 7:5 etc), so the true Israelite knew that Canaan was not his true home (Psalms 119:19. cf. 1Peter 2:11). He put no confidence in his circumcision, but rather his circumcision spoke to him of the promised Seed of Abraham who should come (cf. Simeon: Luke 2:25-32; Phil 3:3).
[Continued]
 

Martin Marprelate

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So are there two Abrahamic covenants, one to the physical descendants of Abraham and one to his spiritual seed? No, for as we have seen, Ishmael receives certain promises, and is given the sign of circumcision, but he is not in the covenant. But what then of Gen 17:10ff, which says, “This is My covenant which you shall keep between me and you and your descendants (lit. ‘Seed’) after you. Every male child among you shall be circumcised; and you shall be circumcised in the flesh of your foreskins and it shall be a sign of the covenant between me and you………and the uncircumcised male child who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant”? How could someone break the covenant if he’s not in it?

As so often in the Scriptures, we can use the New Testament to shed light upon the Old. First, we can look at circumcision: ‘And [Abraham] received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also’ Rom 4:11). First we should note that circumcision was not a seal of anything to anybody but Abraham, and even to him it was simply a confirmation of the blessings that had been already promised to him. It was a divine pledge to him that from him should come that Seed through Whom all nations should be blessed. It was not a seal of his faith, but of the righteousness that should, in due time, be wrought by Christ in Whom he had believed (cf. John 8:56).

What then did circumcision signify to Abraham’s physical male progeny and to his male servants? Well, firstly it had nothing to do with faith. It was a requirement for service in Abraham’s household. If you wanted to work for Mr Abraham, you had the snip. Indeed, nowhere in the entire Bible will you find physical circumcision connected with anybody’s faith but Abraham’s. In itself it signified precisely nothing. From the descendants of Abraham, the Messiah would be born, but it did not follow that any particular descendant should be an ancestor of Christ. Circumcision was a sign, not to Abraham’s physical seed, but to those ‘Israelites indeed’ (John 1:47) who were looking forward to Christ by faith, that the promises of God should eventually be fulfilled.

Next we can look at the ‘promises:’ ‘Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, “And to seeds,” as of many, but as of one, “And to your Seed,” who is Christ……..and if you are Christ’s then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise’ (Gal 3:16, 29). The spiritual promises of the Abrahamic Covenant never applied to those who were physical descendants of Abraham, but to those of all nations (including Israel, of course) who are in Christ by faith. Very solemn are the words of our Lord on this matter: “And I say to you that many will come from east and west and will sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, but the sons of the kingdom will be cast into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matt 8:11-12).

So we see that the Abrahamic Covenant is tied up with the coming of the promised son- the miracle child (Gen 15:2-6). Isaac is not Christ, but he is a type or foreshadowing of Christ: long promised, born miraculously, persecuted by his own kin (Ishmael), offered up by his father, who received him (figuratively- Hebrews 11:19) back from the dead. The children of God come from him (Romans 9:7; Hebrews 3:5b).

So are Christians in some way ‘under’ the Abrahamic Covenant? The reader may search the whole Bible through but he will find no indication that they are. Believers are the true children of Abraham, and we read in Gal 3:14 that, ‘…….. the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.’ There is no promise here for the children of believers, any more than there was for Abraham’s children by Hagar or Keturah (Rom 9:7 again!). ‘Know therefore that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham’ (Gal 3:7).

In the words of A.W.Pink: “The grand design of God’s covenant with Abraham was to make known that through him should come the One who would bring blessing to all the families of the earth.” But in order for this design to come to pass, it was necessary for a nation to arise for Christ to be born into, so that His earthly genealogy might be preserved. Pink continues, “Abraham is called a ‘father’ neither in a federal nor in a spiritual sense, but because he is the head of the faith clan, the prototype to which all believers are conformed. Christians are not under the Abrahamic covenant, though they are ‘blessed with him’ by having their faith counted unto righteousness. Though New Testament believers are not under the Abrahamic covenant, they are, because of their union with Christ, heirs of its spiritual inheritance.”
 

Deacon

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What then did circumcision signify to Abraham’s physical male progeny and to his male servants? Well, firstly it had nothing to do with faith. It was a requirement for service in Abraham’s household. If you wanted to work for Mr Abraham, you had the snip. Indeed, nowhere in the entire Bible will you find physical circumcision connected with anybody’s faith but Abraham’s. In itself it signified precisely nothing. From the descendants of Abraham, the Messiah would be born, but it did not follow that any particular descendant should be an ancestor of Christ. Circumcision was a sign, not to Abraham’s physical seed, but to those ‘Israelites indeed’ (John 1:47) who were looking forward to Christ by faith, that the promises of God should eventually be fulfilled.

Some scattered thoughts:

(1) So if one day after working for your boss, he said he had a revelation from God, "If you want to keep working for me you'll have to 'snip'".
I'd guess Abraham's servants had a faith of a type too.

(2) I find it strange that we consider circumcision to be an "outward sign of faith" for the Jews.
Exactly how outward was it?
I mean, why do you think Paul would have Timothy circumcised in order to be a witness among the Jews?
You don't think that's something he might be able to keep hidden?
I get it that in Roman ruled areas, toilets were public areas... but it's something that isn't on full display.

(3) At some point in Israel's history, even the Hebrews understood circumcision as more than sign that they would be future recipients of Abraham's covenant.
>Deuteronomy 10:12–16 ...Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn...
>The loss of the Land was not only a national tragedy but a spiritual catastrophe. There was a remnant however, during the Babylonian diaspora, that continued to have faith in the promises of that covenant. That's where the hope of a Redeemer marinated. The focus of Jesus that confused them was that Jesus focused upon a personal redemption rather than a political one.

Rob
 
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37818

Well-Known Member
The following is not agreed on.
God had more than one covenant with Abraham.

First, Galatians 3:14-17.

Then there is,
Genesis 17: 10-13, . . . This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, . . . and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.
 

Martin Marprelate

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Some scattered thoughts:

(1) So if one day after working for your boss, he said he had a revelation from God, "If you want to keep working for me you'll have to 'snip'".
I'd guess Abraham's servants had a faith of a type too.

(2) I find it strange that we consider circumcision to be an "outward sign of faith" for the Jews.
Exactly how outward was it?
I mean, why do you think Paul would have Timothy circumcised in order to be a witness among the Jews?
You don't think that's something he might be able to keep hidden?
I get it that in Roman ruled areas, toilets were public areas... but it's something that isn't on full display.

(3) At some point in Israel's history, even the Hebrews understood circumcision as more than sign that they would be future recipients of Abraham's covenant.
>Deuteronomy 10:12–16 ...Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn...
>The loss of the Land was not only a national tragedy but a spiritual catastrophe. There was a remnant however, during the Babylonian diaspora, that continued to have faith in the promises of that covenant. That's where the hope of a Redeemer marinated. The focus of Jesus that confused them was that Jesus focused upon a personal redemption rather than a political one.

Rob
Interesting thoughts.
(1) If you look at Genesis 17:23, it appears that some of Abraham's servants were slaves, of the others, I guess they wanted to carry on working for him. I don't see any indication that he preached to them, though of course he may have done.
(2) I take your point, but Romans 2:28-29 describes 'regular' circumcision as being 'outward in the flesh, 'as opposed to that which is of the heart. As for Timothy, I suppose that he was circumcised so that he could truthfully say that he had been.
(3) Not only Moses, but also Jeremiah(4:4; 9:25-26) spoke of the circumcision of the heart. No doubt there were some (many?) Israelites whose hearts were indeed circumcised to God - that is, who had a true, repentant faith - but when the Jewish leaders claimed to be Abraham's children, our Lord told them exactly whose children they were (John 8:39-44).
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Galatians 3:26, . . . For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. . . .
 

kyredneck

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It is important to note that circumcision is not part of the covenant at this stage. The blessings promised to Abram are on the basis of his faith alone.

Abram was in a deep sleep when Jehovah pronounced His covenant with him, he was totally passive in it. His faith, let alone his faith 'alone', had zilch to do with establishing the covenant. Neither did his faith make him righteous, he was declared to be righteous.
 

Martin Marprelate

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Abram was in a deep sleep when Jehovah pronounced His covenant with him, he was totally passive in it. His faith, let alone his faith 'alone', had zilch to do with establishing the covenant. Neither did his faith make him righteous, he was declared to be righteous.
Abram was not asleep when he believed in the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). 'By grace through faith' (Ephesians 2:8). But I agree with your second point: his faith did not make him righteous.
 

kyredneck

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Abram was not asleep when he believed in the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). 'By grace through faith' (Ephesians 2:8). But I agree with your second point: his faith did not make him righteous.

This is an ambiguous post. Was Abram passive or not in this covenant?
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
@Martin Marprelate

Abram was not asleep when he believed in the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6).

Abrahams Faith/believing here gave evidence he was a righteous justified man, for he had believed God way before that Heb 11:8

8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

He was evidencing then he was a righteous man.
 

Martin Marprelate

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Abram was not asleep when he believed in the LORD and it was credited to him as righteousness (Genesis 15:6). 'By grace through faith' (Ephesians 2:8). But I agree with your second point: his faith did not make him righteous.
This is an ambiguous post. Was Abram passive or not in this covenant?
What is it about 'By grace through faith' that you don't understand? We are are told, 'Seek the LORD while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near' and 'You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul' and that 'He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.' All that doesn't sound very passive to me.
Yet the seeking is all of God. Unless He opens the heart of someone to seek, no one will look (Romans 3:11; Acts 16:14). It is all of God, yet it is by faith (Luke 7:50 etc.). Compare Joshua 24:3 with Hebrews 11:6.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
God's covenant with Abraham is sealed with an oath and cannot be altered and it must come true, every point. There are no codicils to it. Not only was this covenant given to Abraham but it was confirmed unto Isaac and to Jacob and to his offspring. It is said to be immutable. There are other covenants given this people but no modifications to this everlasting and foundational covenant with Abraham.

I suggest reading Psalm 105 and then asking yourself if you believe the words of this Psalm. There are 45 verses in this Psalm and it is God speaking. I will just quote it or no one will read it. BTW, Psalm 105 is one in a series of Psalms that tracks God and Israel through history from their time in Egypt until Jesus comes back to reign on the earth. Psa 109 is a prophecy about Judas who pictures the antichrist of the future.



Ps 105:1 O give thanks unto the LORD; call upon his name: make known his deeds among the people (of Israel).
2 Sing unto him, sing psalms unto him: talk ye of all his wondrous works.
3 Glory ye in his holy name: let the heart of them rejoice that seek the LORD.
4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
5 Remember his marvellous works that he hath done; his wonders, and the judgments of his mouth;
6 O ye seed of Abraham his servant, ye children of Jacob his chosen.

(It is children of Jacob, not children of Abraham)

7 He is the LORD our God: his judgments are in all the earth.

8 ¶ He hath remembered his covenant for ever, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations.
9 Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;
10 And confirmed the same unto Jacob for a law, and to Israel for an everlasting covenant:
11 Saying, Unto thee will I give the land of Canaan, the lot of your inheritance:
12 When they were but a few men in number; yea, very few, and strangers in it.
13 When they went from one nation to another, from one kingdom to another people;
14 He suffered no man to do them wrong: yea, he reproved kings for their sakes;
15 Saying, Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm.
16 Moreover he called for a famine upon the land: he brake the whole staff of bread.
17 He sent a man before them, even Joseph, who was sold for a servant:
18 Whose feet they hurt with fetters: he was laid in iron:
19 Until the time that his word came: the word of the LORD tried him.
20 The king sent and loosed him; even the ruler of the people, and let him go free.
21 He made him lord of his house, and ruler of all his substance:
22 To bind his princes at his pleasure; and teach his senators wisdom.
23 Israel also came into Egypt; and Jacob sojourned in the land of Ham.
24 And he increased his people greatly; and made them stronger than their enemies.

25 ¶ He turned their heart to hate his people, to deal subtilly with his servants.
26 He sent Moses his servant; and Aaron whom he had chosen.
27 They shewed his signs among them, and wonders in the land of Ham.
28 He sent darkness, and made it dark; and they rebelled not against his word.
29 He turned their waters into blood, and slew their fish.
30 Their land brought forth frogs in abundance, in the chambers of their kings.
31 He spake, and there came divers sorts of flies, and lice in all their coasts.
32 He gave them hail for rain, and flaming fire in their land.
33 He smote their vines also and their fig trees; and brake the trees of their coasts.
34 He spake, and the locusts came, and caterpillers, and that without number,
35 And did eat up all the herbs in their land, and devoured the fruit of their ground.
36 He smote also all the firstborn in their land, the chief of all their strength.
37 He brought them forth also with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes.
38 Egypt was glad when they departed: for the fear of them fell upon them.
39 He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.
40 The people asked, and he brought quails, and satisfied them with the bread of heaven.
41 He opened the rock, and the waters gushed out; they ran in the dry places like a river.
42 For he remembered his holy promise, and Abraham his servant.
43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen (that would be Jacob and his offspring, not Abraham, according to V6 above) with gladness:
44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.

It does not matter how one squeezes the words of the scriptures, the land of Canaan and the perpetual ownership and their physical occupation in it forever is a vital promise of the Abrahamic Covenant and if this cannot be believed, neither can anything else in the covenant.
 

kyredneck

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Was Abram passive or not in this covenant?

What is it about 'By grace through faith' that you don't understand? We are are told, 'Seek the LORD while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near' and 'You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul' and that 'He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.' All that doesn't sound very passive to me.
Yet the seeking is all of God. Unless He opens the heart of someone to seek, no one will look (Romans 3:11; Acts 16:14). It is all of God, yet it is by faith (Luke 7:50 etc.). Compare Joshua 24:3 with Hebrews 11:6.

It's a simple question Martin. Was Abram passive or not in this covenant? All the recorded covenants God made with men were unilateral except for the Sinai Covenant. Your ambiguity makes it appear like the Abrahamic Covenant was bilateral due to Abram's 'faith alone'.
 

percho

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Some scattered thoughts:

(1) So if one day after working for your boss, he said he had a revelation from God, "If you want to keep working for me you'll have to 'snip'".
I'd guess Abraham's servants had a faith of a type too.

(2) I find it strange that we consider circumcision to be an "outward sign of faith" for the Jews.
Exactly how outward was it?
I mean, why do you think Paul would have Timothy circumcised in order to be a witness among the Jews?
You don't think that's something he might be able to keep hidden?
I get it that in Roman ruled areas, toilets were public areas... but it's something that isn't on full display.

(3) At some point in Israel's history, even the Hebrews understood circumcision as more than sign that they would be future recipients of Abraham's covenant.
>Deuteronomy 10:12–16 ...Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no longer stubborn...
>The loss of the Land was not only a national tragedy but a spiritual catastrophe. There was a remnant however, during the Babylonian diaspora, that continued to have faith in the promises of that covenant. That's where the hope of a Redeemer marinated. The focus of Jesus that confused them was that Jesus focused upon a personal redemption rather than a political one.

Rob
I have always wondered if it was how Joseph reveled to his brothers who he was.
 

percho

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Abram was in a deep sleep when Jehovah pronounced His covenant with him, he was totally passive in it. His faith, let alone his faith 'alone', had zilch to do with establishing the covenant. Neither did his faith make him righteous, he was declared to be righteous.

I said I liked this and here is why. IMHO Abraham was declared righteous by the faith of the seed of him, Christ, who was going to die for him.

Abraham was called out of belief unto belief for the purpose of the seed of him.

I believe salvation is totally of God.
 

Martin Marprelate

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It's a simple question Martin. Was Abram passive or not in this covenant? All the recorded covenants God made with men were unilateral except for the Sinai Covenant. Your ambiguity makes it appear like the Abrahamic Covenant was bilateral due to Abram's 'faith alone'.
Simple answer then: He was not passive. 'By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called......' Hebrews 11:8.
There is a story of a Salvation Army girl in the 19th Century getting on a train and finding herself sitting next to a Church of England bishop in full regalia. This was more than she could resist. "Excuse me, Bishop," she said; "Are you saved?"
"My dear," he replied, "Do you mean, have I been saved, am I being saved or will I be saved?" What the Sally Army girl thought of that is not recorded. She probably went off and got a cup of coffee. But the bishop had a point. We are saved when God opens our hearts to receive the Gospel - monergism; but we still have to 'work out [our] own salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil. 2:12). Now although it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, we still have to do the work. Then, when we stand before the throne on the last day, we will hear our Lord say, "Well done, good and faithful servant ...... enter into the joy of your Lord" {Matt. 25:21).
I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints. We will persevere, but it is also necessary that we do.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Hebrews 6:13-14, For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
 

JD731

Well-Known Member
Simple answer then: He was not passive. 'By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called......' Hebrews 11:8.
There is a story of a Salvation Army girl in the 19th Century getting on a train and finding herself sitting next to a Church of England bishop in full regalia. This was more than she could resist. "Excuse me, Bishop," she said; "Are you saved?"
"My dear," he replied, "Do you mean, have I been saved, am I being saved or will I be saved?" What the Sally Army girl thought of that is not recorded. She probably went off and got a cup of coffee. But the bishop had a point. We are saved when God opens our hearts to receive the Gospel - monergism; but we still have to 'work out [our] own salvation in fear and trembling' (Phil. 2:12). Now although it is God who works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, we still have to do the work. Then, when we stand before the throne on the last day, we will hear our Lord say, "Well done, good and faithful servant ...... enter into the joy of your Lord" {Matt. 25:21).
I believe in the Perseverance of the Saints. We will persevere, but it is also necessary that we do.
Martin. Are you a proponent of the Reformed covenant theology and do you believe Abraham was a member of the church of Jesus Christ?
 

Martin Marprelate

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Hebrews 6:13-14, For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.
Amen! In the making of the covenant Abram was passive, but that wasn't what @kyredneck asked me. He asked if I thought that he was passive in the covenant. Clearly he was not.
I do believe in Reformed covenant theology, but from a baptistic viewpoint. Accepting that Abraham was a member of the Church opens the door to all sorts of paedobaptistic errors. It is clear that he was saved by grace through faith and is the father of all believers, but I incline to the view that the Church began at Pentecost.
 

Brightfame52

Well-Known Member
What is it about 'By grace through faith' that you don't understand? We are are told, 'Seek the LORD while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near' and 'You will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul' and that 'He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.' All that doesn't sound very passive to me.
Yet the seeking is all of God. Unless He opens the heart of someone to seek, no one will look (Romans 3:11; Acts 16:14). It is all of God, yet it is by faith (Luke 7:50 etc.). Compare Joshua 24:3 with Hebrews 11:6.
When man is commanded to seek, God has already made them spiritually alive. That command isnt to the natural man
 
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