I just knew you would say that! ROFL. did you see my earlier commentary to Tom Vols?
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God's double decree of predestination !
- Thread starter savedbymercy
- Start date
I just knew you would say that! ROFL. did you see my earlier commentary to Tom Vols?
quantumfaith
Active Member
I have read them and understand them (at least to some degree), however that does not mean that I do or must find myself in agreement with everything in them. They are after all also the work of men, men who are well intentioned, but men nonetheless. They do not rise to the level of scripture, would you agree?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Bill, not sure of your intent here, is that what you are convinced of, that God's purpose is to produce people for heaven?
Thinkingstuff
Active Member
No, however, I should like to read it.
Thanks but its not that scholarly....rather matter of fact winsome. In a nutshell, none of us are biblical scholars & theologians...at least Im not. So I rely on a set of standards (written confessions) like 1689 to help give me balance when I read & try to interpret scripture. Many intelligent (men like John Owen) labored to bring us these Confessional pieces. I just tend to believe them.
Now there are places where I disagree with some of these interpretations (like continuance of HS gifts) but in general these are my tools.....scripture, confessions, prayer.
Now I guarantee you, after I "Think" I've worked out everything, someone will come along and tell me im all wrong! Such is life.:smilewinkgrin:
quantumfaith
Active Member
savedbymercy
New Member
Jude writes of men who were of old, ordained to condemnation ! Jude 1:4
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Of old here means from eternity !
As men are Chosen from the beginning to Salvation 2 Thess 2:13, so as early men were Chosen from the beginning for condemnation.
4For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
Of old here means from eternity !
As men are Chosen from the beginning to Salvation 2 Thess 2:13, so as early men were Chosen from the beginning for condemnation.
quantumfaith
Active Member
rbell, there are indeed some who say this, but most qualify it by saying that God simply allows some (if not most) to their own devices.
Then Dave, how would a common man ever have "Quantum" understanding? They would be pretty much walking around blind without a cane.
quantumfaith
Active Member
I am no theologian, but your take on Jude 4, "I" think is a bit of a stretch, if I understand you to be saying this to be referring to those predestinated for hell.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Cannot the reading and personal study of the Word, aided by the Holy Spirit allow us to understand?
As long as we have human frailties, probably not. Have you considered the devils influence?
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Who's sovereign here, human frailties or the Holy Spirit?
& we still have to deal with the devil who rules the earth. Probably the NBA & NFL too the rat. Hell is watching Canadian Football.:tongue3:
savedbymercy
New Member
Predestination and Foreknowledge are determinate !
Acts 2:23-24
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Notice how in this place, the scripture uses the words determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.
This is the only place in scripture where the word determinate is used and its the greek word:
horizō:
to define
a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)
b) to determine, appoint
1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
2) to ordain, determine, appoint
Websters says :
Having defined limits; not uncertain or arbitrary; fixed; established; definite.[Websters]
5. Conclusive; decisive; positive.[Websters]
6. Determined or resolved upon.[Websters]
7. Of determined purpose; resolute.[Websters]
Now here in the text in Acts 2 it is used in connection with and preceding the word Foreknowledge.
Many today admit that Gods foreknowledge covers everything, but denies that He has definitely fixed the affairs of all things or that all things are not predestinated.
That thinking is in opposition however to scriptures such as the one being considered and these:
Acts 17:26
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Eph 1:11
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
With these in view, it appears certain that the biblical teaching is that His fixed determination [purpose or counsel] precedes His Foreknowledge, and or so closely integrated that His determinate counsel is used first.
This also should now dispel the false notion that Gods Foreknowledge is what He observes His creatures do, or doing or will do.
Its more associated with what He has determined to do.
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
24Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Notice how in this place, the scripture uses the words determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God.
This is the only place in scripture where the word determinate is used and its the greek word:
horizō:
to define
a) to mark out the boundaries or limits (of any place or thing)
b) to determine, appoint
1) that which has been determined, acc. to appointment, decree
2) to ordain, determine, appoint
Websters says :
Having defined limits; not uncertain or arbitrary; fixed; established; definite.[Websters]
5. Conclusive; decisive; positive.[Websters]
6. Determined or resolved upon.[Websters]
7. Of determined purpose; resolute.[Websters]
Now here in the text in Acts 2 it is used in connection with and preceding the word Foreknowledge.
Many today admit that Gods foreknowledge covers everything, but denies that He has definitely fixed the affairs of all things or that all things are not predestinated.
That thinking is in opposition however to scriptures such as the one being considered and these:
Acts 17:26
26And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Eph 1:11
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
With these in view, it appears certain that the biblical teaching is that His fixed determination [purpose or counsel] precedes His Foreknowledge, and or so closely integrated that His determinate counsel is used first.
This also should now dispel the false notion that Gods Foreknowledge is what He observes His creatures do, or doing or will do.
Its more associated with what He has determined to do.
>Bill, not sure of your intent here, is that what you are convinced of, that God's purpose is to produce people for heaven?
I don't know what God has in his mind. Bible says we judge intent by deeds but in God's case deeds equals intent, yes?
I have read that some dog breeders kill pups that are not up to standard. I can see that for an occasional cripple but what if the breeder killed 75% or more of every litter? How would we judge him?
In OT times the percentage of Jews (Abraham's Children and converts) were a very small percentage of the world's population. For the last 2000 years only a very small percentage of the population have heard about Jesus. So out of the maybe 10 or 15 billion people who have been born and died, how many have met Baptist bottom line minimum standard for admission to Heaven (believing in Jesus OR being a practicing Jew)? As many as 100 million? One out of 100? One out of 1000?
I don't know what God has in his mind. Bible says we judge intent by deeds but in God's case deeds equals intent, yes?
I have read that some dog breeders kill pups that are not up to standard. I can see that for an occasional cripple but what if the breeder killed 75% or more of every litter? How would we judge him?
In OT times the percentage of Jews (Abraham's Children and converts) were a very small percentage of the world's population. For the last 2000 years only a very small percentage of the population have heard about Jesus. So out of the maybe 10 or 15 billion people who have been born and died, how many have met Baptist bottom line minimum standard for admission to Heaven (believing in Jesus OR being a practicing Jew)? As many as 100 million? One out of 100? One out of 1000?
savedbymercy
New Member
Reprobation !
The Book of Romans, especially the First 11 Chapters, contains every important Gospel Truth that man must believe the EVIDENCES, Gospel Faith, or Faith Given to them of God, that embraces God's Truth, The Gospel of God Rom 1:1,15-16
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In it, the Righteousness of God is Revealed to Faith ! Now no doubt this means the Imputed Righteousness of God is Revealed to whom all Christ died in behalf of, His Church, but the word Righteousness also means something else:
His Justice:
Paul in the book of Romans proclaims both Divine Election and Divine Reprobation, which is His Justice ! Notice Rom 9:21
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Paul preaches the Gospel here as stated in Rom 1:15-16, and it includes this Truth in this passage, Election and Reprobation, Both Purposes of God premised on His Righteousness !
The Book of Romans, especially the First 11 Chapters, contains every important Gospel Truth that man must believe the EVIDENCES, Gospel Faith, or Faith Given to them of God, that embraces God's Truth, The Gospel of God Rom 1:1,15-16
1Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God
15So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
In it, the Righteousness of God is Revealed to Faith ! Now no doubt this means the Imputed Righteousness of God is Revealed to whom all Christ died in behalf of, His Church, but the word Righteousness also means something else:
His Justice:
Paul in the book of Romans proclaims both Divine Election and Divine Reprobation, which is His Justice ! Notice Rom 9:21
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Paul preaches the Gospel here as stated in Rom 1:15-16, and it includes this Truth in this passage, Election and Reprobation, Both Purposes of God premised on His Righteousness !
believe in single predestination, that the Bivble teaches that God elects to save a remnant from every tribe/tongue/group, but that he does NOT actively determined the unsaved, forcing them to be lost..
Saved granted new life inChrsit due to the Will of God, lost assigned to hell due to their Wills...They are sinners who also continue to willfully reject the Son of God!