God's Effectual Call?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:


Why do you think that your bad example should inspire me to take time away from Bible study and study a man?

I didn't ask you to study a man but to consider what a man preached who started the Navigators and started the follow up work for Billy Graham.

You did make a comment about a man you studied named C.H. Spurgeon. He did not believe in ordination and was never ordained.

 

[El_Guero]

BUMP

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Jer 23: 21ff I did not send these prophets, yet they have run with their message; I did not speak to them, yet they have prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my council, they would have proclaimed my words to my people and would have turned them from their evil ways and from their evil deeds.

31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.'

Jer 35: 12, 15 Then the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah, saying: .... Again and again I sent ALL my servants the prophets to you

John 20: 21 Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."

Eph 4: 7, 11 But to each one of us grace has been given as Christ apportioned it.....It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,

 

[El_Guero]

You twist my words.

You twist God's Words.

 

[El_Guero]

But,

The ministry of The Navigators began in the 1930's through the call of God to a young Californian, Dawson Trotman. He began to teach high school students and local Sunday school classes. Then in 1933, he and his friends began to extend their work among sailors in the U.S. Navy.

The very man you ADMIRE more than God and His Word, was called.

 

[El_Guero]

FURTHER

Some guy with a screen name of gb93433 in reply to:

Where does Scripture require or even hint at a "call to ministry"?

replied with 1 Tim 3:1 . . .

It would seem that at least at some time, you believed in a "call to ministry" . . .

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
But,

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />The ministry of The Navigators began in the 1930's through the call of God to a young Californian, Dawson Trotman. He began to teach high school students and local Sunday school classes. Then in 1933, he and his friends began to extend their work among sailors in the U.S. Navy.

The very man you ADMIRE more than God and His Word, was called. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you. Dawson Trotman was never a pastor. My disagreement is over the issue about a pastor being called.

Calling is one thing, being called to pastor is quite another. I would contend that many are called but few are chosen. All Christians are called to make disciples. It is a command not an option. I just see no evidence of a pastor being called in scripture. It is a desire(passion not a calling).

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
It would seem that at least at some time, you believed in a "call to ministry" . . .

Absolutely. The very moment we receive Christ we are called into God's service. We are called as soldiers of Christ. I have seen new Christians lead others to Christ within a matter of a few hours.

My issue is not about God's call to all Christians to make disciples and walk humbly and holy with God. My issue is with a call to pastor. The call of God upon the believer to make disciples never changes but his desires will most likely.

A theology a man or denomination really holds is borne out in a its practice.

The SBC alone has over 40,000 preachers and churches.

Of those who start seminary only about 50% graduate. Of those who graduate about 20% are pastoring after five years and almost zero after 10 years. what is their call?

Doesn't there seem to be something wrong with the theology the SBC proclaims and what it sees in its people who are "called"? I would contend that so many today feel a sense of a "call" to pastor but have never made disciples and so do not fulfil the basic responsibility of every Christian. Every person who goes to seminary has to demonstrate some kind of "calling". Something tells me there is tremendous failure somewhere. The very thing it proclaims its people tell otherwise.

Some of those called men have become much more effective outside of the church by not being a pastor of a church. In fact SWBTS took a survey a few years ago among its theology students and 2/3 declared they did not want to be a pastor but to either start or work in a parachurch organization. What is their call?

Are the 2/3 going against God's call or is God redirecting them in this world to be as salt and light while the church as a whole is slowly declining in America. I would contend that God's call is to make disciples. Everyone has different passions and desires. Some desire to be missionaries. Some desire to be a pastor. Some desire to be a worker in a foreign country reaching people with the gospel. Some will desire to pastor and then later be a teacher in a seminary. Their basic passion does not change but their method may. Their health may dictate what they can and cannot do. But their passion to make disciples is still the same.

 

[gb93433]

A couple of quotes from Spurgeon:


I always have an objection-I must state it strongly-to calling a clergyman, or any man that
preaches, a priest. We are no more so than you are. All saints are priests.


If a man be truly called of God to the ministry, I will defy him to withhold himself from it. A man-who has really within him the inspiration of the Holy Ghost calling him to preach cannot help it. He must preach. As fire within the bones, so will that influence be until it blazes forth Friends may check him, foes criticise him, despisers sneer at him, the man is indomitable; he must preach if he has the call of heaven. All earth might forsake him; but he would preach to the barren mountain-tops. If he has the call of heaven, if he has no congregation, he would preach to the rippling waterfalls, and let the brooks hear his voice. He could not be silent.

 

[El_Guero]

You are full of double-speak.

 

[superdave]

Why, because he doesn't hold to some extra-biblical mystical "call of God"

We are all in full-time ministry (another phrase that burns me) and those who have chosen to make their vocation as a pastor, evangelist, or missionary are doing so, just as those of us who perform our ministries while also performing secular employment. Not that their service is not admirable, but it is not some special dispensation of grace. That type of perspective is what leads to some dangerous attitudes about the position of the pastor.

 

[gb93433]

El Guero:

Never once did you answer my question which I asked several times about 1 Tim 3:1. What is your interpretation of 1 Timothy 3:1.

You quoted Spuregeon earlier so I thought I would give you a quote from Spurgeon as well.

"I always have an objection-I must state it strongly-to calling a clergyman, or any man that
preaches, a priest. We are no more so than you are. All saints are priests."

If God only calls pastors Jesus struck out.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by superdave:
That type of perspective is what leads to some dangerous attitudes about the position of the pastor.

Some pastors think they are superheros and some congregations think the work of ministry is the pastor's work. Should it amaze us why so many churches are so small and not much is getting done?

 

[El_Guero]

gb

You misrepresent God, and you misrepresent me.

Maybe if you read my posts better than you read God's Word, you might have found that I answered your silly question on page twelve.

 

[El_Guero]

BUMP

 

[El_Guero]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
gb

You should say not. [This was in reference to your post - it will make little sence out of context, but you make little sence in context.]

Desiring to be president of the USofA is a 'good thing'. Something being desirable, does not have ANY BEARING upon reality.

God 'calls' men to ministry. Jesus called His disciples.

You act like serving God is a "J" "O" "B".

Timothy was instructed that being a pastor is a good thing, something to be desired.

 

[gb93433]

Thanks. I did see your response to 1 Timothy 3:1. From your last post it seems to me that you missed what I was aiming at. So I will try to be more specific. Take a closer look at I timothy 3:1 in Greek NT and take a look at the words for "aspires" and "desires".

oregetai is a present middle indicative.
epithumei is a present active indicative

Do a word study and see their usage in and outside of the NT.

As you take a look at that verse notice the middle voice and see who originates the action.

The great Southern Baptist A.T. Robertson wrote in his word pictures of the NT, " Faithful is the saying (pistos ho logos). Here the phrase points to the preceding words (not like #1:15 and should close the preceding paragraph.

If a man seeketh (ei tis oregetai). Condition of first class, assumed as true. Present middle indicative of oregô, old verb to reach out after something, governing the genitive. In N.T. only here, #6:10; Heb 11:16

The office of a bishop (episkopês). Genitive case after oregetai. Late and rare word outside of LXX and N.T. (in a Lycaonian inscription). From episkopeô and means "over-seership" as in
#Ac 1:20

I do not come to you lightly because I was challenged by this for a long time. After discussing this with my Greek professor and some serious study what I am giving you is not some fly by night casual idea.

You might be surprised at how many will not give you what you have been told by some you seem to trust.

I am challenging you to seriously take a look at that verse and digest it both theologically, textually and practically. If you do then I am convinced you will not be the same.

I really do not want to spend time discrediting another pastor. I know from experience that some are very diligent and hard working while others are lazy politicians.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
You twist my words.

You twist God's Words.

What did I twist? Give me proof.

 

[El_Guero]

I do not know why you are experiencing such a spiritual purgation . . . but, it must be painful.

I cannot fathom the depth of your pain, nor would I care to. God has allowed me to endure much pain as He has prepared me for His work. However, I have never experienced such pain that I would change my theology. Nor, have I found any scripture to support your change in theology.

 

[El_Guero]

I am challenging you to seriously take a look at that verse

I looked at that verse seriously the first time years ago. The second time was years ago. I have looked back at that verse seriously 4 times in the last 3 weeks.

I have yet to find your hidden meaning. Nor have I found ANY serious scholar that sees a hidden meaning there.