God's Effectual Call?

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I am challenging you to seriously take a look at that verse

I looked at that verse seriously the first time years ago. The second time was years ago. I have looked back at that verse seriously 4 times in the last 3 weeks.

I have yet to find your hidden meaning. Nor have I found ANY serious scholar that sees a hidden meaning there. </font>[/QUOTE]What serious scholars have you taken a look at?

There is no hidden meaning if you take a look at the Greek text. If you understand what the middle voice is then it is much easier to understand. The Greek word translated "aspires" in English is in the middle voice in the Greek text. Look up the usage and meaning of the two words I gave you earlier in that verse. Even a concordance would help to see how those words are translated in other verses.

If you look at the first part of that verse it begins with "If". That verse is a conditional sentence. It is an if-then statement. If anyone aspires. . . (then) he desires. . .

Every Greek work I have says the same thing about the words used there. I took a look at Blass-DeBrunner, A.T.Robertson's grammar, Wallace, Rogers & Rogers, BAGD and Louw & Nida. Either they are all wrong or they are all right. Because each of them say the same things about those words. Whe you combine those words with the middle voice it is rather clear. Any basic Greek grammar such as Summers or Drumwright will describe the middle voice rather easily.

There is a good discussion of it at http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/b-greek/2003-September/026254.html

Another is at http://www.sil.org/linguistics/GlossaryOfLinguisticTerms/WhatIsMiddleVoice.htm

Or if you do a search on middle voice there are many.

 

[El_Guero]

You need to learn English. Then if you learn Greek, you can try to transmit your hidden knowledge of Greek into English.

There is no hidden meaning in the text. The text stated that it is a good thing to aspire to being a pastor. The pastorate being a good aspiration DOES NOT extend God's call to you if you "just want it".

Calvin, Fee, Knight, Lock . . . I also have Robertson on the shelf - computers and cut and paste is boring.

Your attempt to obfuscate by talking about the reflexive (middle) usage of a verb does little to enhance your attempt to find gnostic meaning in the plain text.

 

[El_Guero]

So, I looked at it again (in Greek UBS 3 & 4 and NA 26 . . . hint I have all three and they are the same text . . . explanation: I am not bad in Greek)

There is NO hidden meaning in the text. If you desire to be a pastor, then you aspire to a good office. The text is simple clean and to the point. The text does not say, "If you desire to be a pastor THEN God will call you to your good aspiration."

 

[El_Guero]

PS

Tell brother (doctor) Conrad hello for me.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
There is no hidden meaning in the text. The text stated that it is a good thing to aspire to being a pastor. The pastorate being a good aspiration DOES NOT extend God's call to you if you "just want it".

Calvin, Fee, Knight, Lock . . . I also have Robertson on the shelf - computers and cut and paste is boring.

Your attempt to obfuscate by talking about the reflexive (middle) usage of a verb does little to enhance your attempt to find gnostic meaning in the plain text.

Whoever said their was hidden meaning in the text? It is very straight forward. But if you do not know the language and understand what was written it is much like telling a blind man about sight.

If you look up the words in the Greek text like I mentioned and study their usage in context you will find that it is not even remotely suggesting a complacent, lazy "if you want it." Sometime just look at BAGD and pull out a Greek concordance to see how those words are used in their context. Those words are talking about an intense passion. There are lots of dreamers today with intense misguided passion who spend their time dreaming wishing they were preaching when their ministry is useless because they are too lazy to get out the front door and meet people sharing their faith along the way. Years ago I pastored a church near to shutting its doors. When the people started praying and God began to move in and through us some pastors asked what I was doing. When I told them I was knocking on about 75 to 200 dooors and then began ot take some people with me each month almost everyone of them said they didn't have time or the people in their church wouldn't do it. They had all kinds of excuses to try and cover for their lack of passion.

There are only three cases of how a middle voice can be used--relexive, intensive and reciprocal. Two of them emphasize the action as coming from the subject. The other involves members of a plural subject. So whatever you pick it is hard to miss the point. The subject originates the action because it is not the members of a plural subject.

Most of the time I agree with Fee but there are time when his church background gets in the way. Fee is AOG and Calvin a Presbyterian.

Seeing as how you are unwilling to take a serious look at the grammar and text of 1 Timothy 1:3 then take a look at how the theology of the SBC who proclaims such a theology is working. Something is seriously wrong! If truly men are called of God to go to seminary and pastor then why is it that almose zero of those they accept to seminary in the SBC are not pastoring after ten years. Am I missing something?

As far as Dr. Conrad goes I have never met the man but I do know that my Greek professor who was at SWBTS for about 25 years who taught Greek to most of the doctoral students has a great respect for him.

[ November 11, 2005, 12:37 AM: Message edited by: gb93433 ]

 

[gb93433]

A good case to look at where the middle voice is used is in James 2:16. The English does not even come close to conveying the intensity of what that verse teaches.

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
There is NO hidden meaning in the text. If you desire to be a pastor, then you aspire to a good office. The text is simple clean and to the point. The text does not say, "If you desire to be a pastor THEN God will call you to your good aspiration."

You are right. Neither does the verse say if God calls you to be a pastor then it is a good work. It does read If you desire. . .

 

[El_Guero]

gb

You are a waste of time.

Seeing as how you are unwilling to take a serious look at the grammar and text of 1 Timothy 1:3

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
gb

You are a waste of time.

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Seeing as how you are unwilling to take a serious look at the grammar and text of 1 Timothy 1:3

</font>[/QUOTE]That is what those who do not want to know the truth say too.

It is those who support the SBC blindly who say such things too.

My Bible reads in Acts 17:111, "Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with great eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so."

Apparently your mind is made up and you do not want to study and be challenged any further. The truth is the truth but you are willing to hang with the crowd around you who choose to believe just like you and not challenge each other. But that is not okay because it was people just like you who let the SBC get away with the BFA (http://www.rickross.com/groups/bfa.html) without saying anything. I said something and received a lot of criticism from some other SBC pastors and deacons in the church I pastored who said I was wrong until they lost their money and the scheme hit the national news. It was those same SBC deacons who for about 25 years invited the Mormon bishop to come and preach at city events they sponsored. It was then when I found out how many studied their Bible and have any sense of what is biblical and what is worldly.

It is the same SBC who claims a calling from God who at the time I was student which published in the Houston Baptist University paper the weekly horoscope and posted the pictures of big money givers on the walls of the university. But today they honor the rich folks who give large sums of money. Is that the SBC you listen to and believe?

 

[superdave]

Some pastors think they are superheros and some congregations think the work of ministry is the pastor's work. Should it amaze us why so many churches are so small and not much is getting done?

Exactly what I was referring to. I am blessed with a pastor who not only says, "Its not about me" but demonstrates that by his actions.

The attitude you describe can be what leads to churches I have visited with reserved parking spaces for the pastor and deacons just beyond the handicapped spots, the "man of God" not wanting his opinions questioned, and at least hero worship, if not flat out idolatry being practiced.

We are called to the ministry, I choose to supplement mine by working for a technology company, and the pastors at my church are allowed to minister as a career by the giving of the body. I have no less of a call, and no less of a responsibility for ministry. God has providentially led each of us to the place we are, but it is not some mystical feeling

 

[gb93433]

When I was in seminary there was a student who sat next to me who believed he should go to seminary to be a better Sunday School teacher. Can you imagine what the church would look like if we had people in our churches who were that serious about God's work?

 

[Bible-boy]

Originally posted by El_Guero:
Now, before you get ignorant enough to:

... challenge me to a dual (a second time);

I never challenged you to a dual. I simply made the point that you and some of your professors disagee with me and some of my professors. Then I pointed out that trying to argue from such a point of view is as silly as six year olds claiming that their dads can beat up other six year old's dads. Let's stick to the Word and see what it has to say (and what it does not say) about this issue.

... Or misrepresent what I have exegeted by calling it eisegesis (again and again);

I have not misrepresented what you call exegesis. I took what you said about a passage of Scripture and pointed out how you had to ignore context, or import words and outside meanings onto the text of the Scripture to arrive at your presupposed conclusion, which is classic eisegesis.

... Or, misrepresenting my hermeneutical approach to this subject as faulty. (I do thank you that you would place the scholarship of no less a "prince of preachers" than Spurgeon into this category with)

I have not misrepresented your hermeneutical approach. When one engages in eisegesis there is a problem with one's hermeneutical approach. I am sorry but, you have engaged in eisegesis in an attempt to make your point.

I have gone to great lengths to point out and fully explain exactly how you engaged in eisegesis. You have made no clear attempt to refute my claims regarding eisegesis on your part. Nor have you attempted to further explain your use of the Scriptures to correct any misunderstanding (if any) on my part regarding your use of the Scriptures.

... Ask your self: "How is it that I, "Bible-Boy", no longer have a felt call from God for me, "Bible-Boy", to go into ministry?"

Again, this is the root of the discussion we are having. I am unwilling to claim that my personal subjective fellings equate to "God's effectual call on my life to ministry." You might ask me why I say such a thing? The answer is that I am only interested in the objective truth of the Scriptures and I can not find a single verse of Scripture that supports the idea that God does indeed "effectually call" (as you are using the term) all those who serve in ministry today. Likewise, I can not find a verse that supports that such a call (as you are using the term) is required of those who would serve in ministry today.

Personally, I fear the wrath of Almighty God too much to go into His ministry if He did not call me.

He did call you, me, and all other Christians to the ministry of making disciples (Matt. 28:19-20) as gb has pointed out. Likewise, there are additional general "calls" to the ministry of witnessing and making disciples (Mark 16:15; Luke 24:47; John 20:21-22; and Acts 1:8). However, there is no passage of Scripture that supports the idea of God "calling" specific men to specific places to be pastors (as you seem to be using the term).

But, I must guess that if you can loose a call from God, you might not fear Him as much as I do fear Him. (I guess, because you have not explained how you lost your calling).

Stop with the foolish personal attacks it is against the BB rules to attack another poster by calling his or her salvation (or fear of the Lord etc.) into question. Debate the issue and do not make ad hominem (meaning against the person) attacks. [I am speaking to you as a Moderator of this forum here].

Likewise, I have fully explained to you how and why I changed my theological position on this issue. It rests on recognizing presuppositions, setting them aside, and allowing the Word of God to speak for itself without importing words or adding outside meanings to the text. In other words I arrived at my position through the use of sound hermeneutics and solid exegesis of the Scriptures.

[ November 29, 2005, 02:33 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[gb93433]

Bible-boy you said it well.

 

[El_Guero]

Bible boy,

It is a compliment that you consider my exegesis to be on a par with those theologians of history that you disagree with: Spurgeon, Calvin, Graham, Luther, and others. I also appreciate that my hermeneutic is in agreement with those theologians, as well. I cannot wait until you place my logic on the same level as Augustine, Plato, Rousseau, and Descartes.

Have you sat down with Dr. Akin to find out why you have lost your calling?

 

[El_Guero]

Show me where Dr. Akin contradicts the exegesis and hermeneutic of Spurgeon, Calvin, Graham, Luther, and other scholars.

You have claimed that your basis is what South Eastern has taught you this new logic, new exegesis, and new hermeneutic. Show me that this is what South Eastern is teaching. Give me an article and page number. Give me a dissertation and page number. Surely, Dr. Akin knows the answer if you do not.

 

[Bible-boy]

It is a compliment that you consider my exegesis to be on a par with those theologians of history that you disagree with: Spurgeon, Calvin, Graham, Luther, and others.

Where in this discussion have I stated that I disagree with those you mention? Where have I said that your exegesis agrees with that of those you mention? I don’t recall making any such statements. Likewise, I don’t recall you using any of them as reference sources to support your position. Could you quote that part of our discussion where any of this has taken place?

I also appreciate that my hermeneutic is in agreement with those theologians, as well.

Is it? Have you provided a single reference to any of their works that supports your position? I don’t recall you having done so.

I cannot wait until you place my logic on the same level as Augustine, Plato, Rousseau, and Descartes.

Nonsense. If you want to debate the topic of the thread by all means let’s do so. However, if you just want to continue to attempt to try and score some kind of one-upmanship points based on nonsensical statements and/or wild accusations as above, then we can end our discussion right now.

Have you sat down with Dr. Akin to find out why you have lost your calling?

Nope. I never said that I was going to have such a conversation with him. What I did agree to do was talk to him about the Scriptures that you referenced in support of your definition of what “called” means. However, I still have not had time to sit down with him and discuss the matter at length. Maybe during the Christmas break after final exams are finished we will be able to talk about the Scriptures you suggested.

You have claimed that your basis is what South Eastern has taught you this new logic, new exegesis, and new hermeneutic.

There is no “new logic,” no “new exegesis,” and no “new hermeneutic” being used here. What in the world are you talking about? Are you saying that you believe that biblical interpretation and exegesis based on a literal, historical, grammatical reading and understanding of the text is some kind of “new hermeneutical” method? As far as questions regarding logic are concerned I have given you very specific references with page numbers to a well known and reliable logic textbook each time I have pointed out where you have fallen prey to fallacies.

Show me where Dr. Akin contradicts the exegesis and hermeneutic of Spurgeon, Calvin, Graham, Luther, and other scholars.

What? How does Dr. Akin figure into this discussion? Have I used him as a reference? Who said that he contradicts those you mention? How does any of this support your position?

Show me that this is what South Eastern is teaching. Give me an article and page number. Give me a dissertation and page number. Surely, Dr. Akin knows the answer if you do not.

Again, what does Dr. Akin have to do with this discussion between you and me? I have given you plenty of references to published works that have been used in the classroom here. Have you bothered to read any of them in full for yourself? As far as hermeneutics goes try the following:

Fee, Gordon D. and Douglas Stuart. How to Read the Bible for all its Worth: A Guide to Understanding the Bible, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1982.

Zuck, Roy B. Basic Bible Interpretation, Wheaton, IL: Victor Books, 1991.

I remember a quote from Fee’s book referring to literal, historical, grammatical reading and understanding the Bible that basically said, “You can never make the Bible say what it never said in the first place.” Dr. Gerald Cowen said that single quote made Fee’s book worth its entire price.

If you want more references do your own research and then we can talk.

[ December 08, 2005, 01:52 AM: Message edited by: Bible-boy ]

 

[gb93433]

Originally posted by El_Guero:

It is a compliment that you consider my exegesis to be on a par with those theologians of history that you disagree with: Spurgeon, Calvin, Graham, Luther, and others. I also appreciate that my hermeneutic is in agreement with those theologians, as well. I cannot wait until you place my logic on the same level as Augustine, Plato, Rousseau, and Descartes.

I hope your hermeneutic will far surpasses them in the future because of your serious study.

Discuss with us some of the scriptures you claim to support your ideas and how you would interpret them in light of their historical context.

A few days ago I talked with the top Greek professor in the SBC at one time who is now retired about this issue and he would not even come close to agreeing with you. But I'll not discuss what he believes because what scripture teaches is was matters.

We can discuss what you think others believe but I always thought Baptists claim to believe the Bible and not popes. So lets get down to the real issue of what scripture teaches not what you think someone else believes.

So tell us what you believe giving us scripture interpreted in light of its historical context.

If you believe Baptist leaders are always right then try doing some study on Whitsitt who was once a professor at SBTS.

 

[gb93433]

Some books which might be helpful in interpreting the Bible.

The Complete Text of The Earliest New Testament Manuscripts
Edited by David Barrett & Phil Comfort
Text of The Earliest New Testament Greek Manuscripts
Edited by David Barrett & Phil Comfort
The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and its Background in Early Judaism
by Roger Beckwith
New Testament Criticism & Interpretation Editors David Alan Black & David S. Dockery
New Testament Documents: Are They Reliable? By: F.F. Bruce
The Books and the Parchments bt F.F. Bruce
The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce
Exegetical Fallacies by D. A. Carson
Biblical Hermeneutics, A Comprehensive Introduction on Interpreting Scripture By Bruce Corley
Introduction to Interpreting Scripture By: B. Corley S. Lemke G. Lovejoy
The Origin of the Bible By: Philip Comfort
Biblical Interpretation Then and Now: Contemporary Hermeneutics in the Light of The Early Church by David Dockery
Letters in Primitive Christianity by William G. Doty, Dan O. Via (Editor)
New Testament Exegesis: A Handbook For Students And Pastors by Gordon Fee
Memory & Manuscript: Oral Tradition & Written Transmission with Tradition & Transmission In Early Christianity By: Birger Gerhardsson
Biblical Exegesis: A Beginner’s Handbook By John H. Hayes, Carl Holladay
Lexicography and Translation Edited by J.P. Louw pub by BSSA
Manuscripts of The Greek Bible: An Introduction To Palaeography by Bruce M. Metzger
The Bible in Translation: Ancient and English Versions by Bruce Metzger
The Canon Of The New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance
By Bruce M. Metzger
The Text of The New Testament: Its Transmission Corruption, and Restoration
By Bruce Metzger
Signs, Sense, Translation by Eugene Nida
Style And Discourse by E.A. Nida. J.P. Louw, A.H. Synman, J. v W. Cronje pub. by the Bible Society of South Africa
Toward An Exegetical Theology by Walter C. Kaiser, Jr.
Protestant Biblical Interpretation By: Bernard Ramm
Memory and Manuscript: OralTradition and Written Transmission in Rabbinic Judaism and Early Christianity: With Tradition and Transmission in Early Christianity by Eric J. Sharpe (Translator), Birger Gerhardsson, Jacob Neusner
Hermeneutics: Principles and Processes of Biblical Interpretation By: Henry Virkler
Discourse Perspectives on Hebrew Poetry in the Scriptures Ernst R. Wendland, Editor
Language, Society, and Bible Translation by Ernst R. Wendland pub by BSSA
Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament Based on Semantic Domains 2 vols.
By Louw & Nida
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament 1 vol or 10 vols. Pub. By Eerdmans
Theological Wordbook of the Old Testament 2 vols. Ed. By R. Laird Harris
Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament 14 vols.so far Pub. By Eerdmans
New International Dictionary Of Old Testament Theology & Exegesis 5 vols.
William A. VanGemeren, editor
Dictionary of Paul and His Letters pub. by IVP
Dictionary of The Later New Testament & Its Development pub. by IVP
Dictionary of Jesus and The Gospels pub. By IVP
Dictionary of Biblical Imagery pub. By IVP
Dictionary of Judaism In The Biblical Period pub. By Hendrickson
Backgrounds of Early Christianity by Everett Ferguson
The New Manners & Customs of Bible Times by Ralph Gower
Manners & Customs In The Bible by Victor H. Matthews
Jerusalem in The Times of Jesus Joachim Jeremias

 

[gb93433]

One would wonder about the theology of Dr. Akin, a professsor who uses both dispensational books and non-dispensational books in a class on hermeneutics.

 

[Bible-boy]

That ought to keep him busy for some time!