<tapping foot waiting for Scripture, not philosophy>
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God's election
- Thread starter Carico
- Start date
We were having our final night of area wide revival last night, and one of the pastors brought a chair up for an example. He asked if you had faith that it would hold you if you sat in it. Yes that faith very much equates.
Please provide scriptural justification that saving faith is of the same species as any other "kind of faith we use in our lives" WD.
You use your personal philosophy to support non-scriptural teaching.
Yes, I have seen and heard that illustration, and it is good to prove a point: that faith has an object and the object is not oneself. However, someone's illustration does not constitute actual Bible doctrine. Someone's extrabiblical illustration does not prove that Gospel faith is the same as a realistic expectation by intuition that something that was engineered for a specific purpose is indeed fit for that purpose. A chair holding someone up is a matter of the science of weights and measures as well as the engineering of materials and structures. Gospel faith is upon something that is unseen (Heb 11:1-3).
<still tapping foot>
The burden of proof is on you, not me. We know what faith is, YOU need to prove there is a different one than the one we already know.
No, you apparently do not know what true faith is. You think that saving faith is a common thing much like having faith in a chair to support your weight. You demean the God-given faith which the Scriptures maintain.
I know exactly what it is, it is the substance of what is hoped for and the evidence for what is not seen. We use this everyday in our lives, and I demean nothing.
Now...Scripture instead of the normal ad hominem?
All faith is unseen in nature.
We practice faith every day. I take the word of the Ford Dealership and what is written in its manual, that when I put the key in the ignition and turn it, that the car will start. I cannot see the Ford Co. who told me that. But I trust their word. When I see the consequence of my faith--my car starting, then I am satisfied.
Faith is confidence in the word of another (that what he says is true).
I have faith in the bus driver when I board the transit bus, that if I ask him if this bus will take me to the center of the city, that he will tell me the truth and not take me to the airport.
--We put our faith in the word of others everyday that what they say is true. The more we know the person, the more we are able to trust them, the more confidence we are able to put in them.
My confidence (faith) in my wife is far greater than the faith I put in my next door neighbor. Why? My relationship with her has developed with her to a much deeper and fuller extent over these many years.
So it is with the Word of God. Man is not perfect. I may put faith in my car. But my car is made by fallible men. It is a fallible product, and it will in time break down.
But God is perfect. His promises will never break down, will never fail. His word is perfect. He is a perfect God, with a perfect record of faithfulness to his people, to all that come to him. He never breaks his promises. I can have complete faith in him.
BTW, my faith in a bus driver doesn't come from God (if I am unsaved), and my faith in God (if I am unsaved) won't come from God either. God doesn't give faith to an unsaved person--even to get saved.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
If ordinary, garden-variety faith is used every day in our lives that means the same thing to you as saving faith? Garden-variety faith according to use is the substance of what is hoped for and the evidence of things not seen?! That is indeed a great degradation of biblical saving faith.
Same faith, different object. Why is that so hard to understand? You are propping up faith itself as something mysitcal and powerful, not the object of the faith. That is idolatry.
So after He gives it, who's faith is it? Either way you are stuck in a corner that it is OUR faith in Christ that leads to salvation, regardless of where it came from.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I posted the following on another thread. It appears that it would be appropriate here, not that anyone will change their mind or recognize the truth!
Martyn Lloyd-Jones, The Holy Spirit, page 140 makes the following argument [Paraphrased for brevity.]
It is unfortunate that all too often saving faith is compared to the choices that people make in life. The argument is as follows :
Faith is a natural faculty that every person has. You are always exercising faith in your life, you couldn’t live a day without doing so. You exercise faith when you go out to start your car. You exercise faith when you board an airplane. Just as you trust that the car will start and the airplane will arrive safely, why don’t you trust Jesus Christ as Savior?
In fact starting a car or boarding an airplane have nothing to do with faith, rather they have to do with an understanding [to a greater or lesser degree] that the probability of the desired event will happen. Therefore, such a comparison is meaningless.
What truth? We are not talking about starting a car or boarding a plane, and besides Mr. Lloyd-Jones is dead wrong and playing the semantics game.
Yes, he is just changing the definitions of words to suit his purpose. But look up the words, faith, trust, or believe in any concordance and you will see the exact same word with the exact same meaning is used to describe faith in things other than Christ.
Jer 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
This is the very same word that is used to describe trust or faith in God.
2 Kings 18:20 Thou sayest, (but they are but vain words,) I have counsel and strength for the war. Now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
21 Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.
22 But if ye say unto me, We trust in the LORD our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem?
Here the word trust is used four times, and each time it is the same word with the exact same meaning. And it is God himself speaking here. And he is speaking both of trusting on Egypt and Pharaoh, and of trusting in the LORD.
Go through your concordance, there are literally dozens of examples like this. The very same word "trust" is applied to believeing or trusting on God as is used in trusting on chariots and horsemen, and false idols made of wood and stone.
Jer 7:1 The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4 Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5 For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6 If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7 Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8 Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
This is the very same word that is used to describe trust or faith in God.
2 Kings 18:20 Thou sayest, (but they are but vain words,) I have counsel and strength for the war. Now on whom dost thou trust, that thou rebellest against me?
21 Now, behold, thou trustest upon the staff of this bruised reed, even upon Egypt, on which if a man lean, it will go into his hand, and pierce it: so is Pharaoh king of Egypt unto all that trust on him.
22 But if ye say unto me, We trust in the LORD our God: is not that he, whose high places and whose altars Hezekiah hath taken away, and hath said to Judah and Jerusalem, Ye shall worship before this altar in Jerusalem?
Here the word trust is used four times, and each time it is the same word with the exact same meaning. And it is God himself speaking here. And he is speaking both of trusting on Egypt and Pharaoh, and of trusting in the LORD.
Go through your concordance, there are literally dozens of examples like this. The very same word "trust" is applied to believeing or trusting on God as is used in trusting on chariots and horsemen, and false idols made of wood and stone.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The misunderstanding of the use if the word "faith" is the reason that Scripture teaches that understanding is granted by the Holy Spirit.
That is a ridiculous argument. God's word itself uses the very same exact word to express faith in God as it does other things like horses and chariots.
Psa 44:6 For I will not trust in my bow, neither shall my sword save me.
Here the Psalmist is saying they will not trust in their own strength or might, nor in their weapons to give them victory over their enemies, but God. The word trust here is the exact same word as used many times when the scriptures say a man's trust is in God.
Psa 25:2 O my God, I trust in thee: let me not be ashamed, let not mine enemies triumph over me.
You are arguing that the Holy Spirit contradicts the scriptures.
You are also taking the opinions of a man over the scriptures themselves.
Faith is trust, the ability to put your confidence in the word of another.
Do you trust your neighbor, your wife, your boss, your pastor?
Every person exercises a certain amount of faith everyday, and that faith is not given by God.
That same kind of faith is used by the unsaved person to put in the promises of God that God will keep his promise to save him. God will not give faith to an unsaved him. If you think he will, go back to Romans 12 where some of the spiritual gifts are listed to the believers.
Romans 12:6-7 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
--A measure of faith is given to believers, not to unbelievers. Only believers are given faith. The Bible says nothing about unbelievers being given a gift of faith. That would be going contrary to God's Word. Does God give spiritual gifts to the unsaved?? I certainly hope not!
The faith that an unsaved person puts in God is not different than the faith you would put in your wife. Do you trust her? Do you trust God?
Concerning salvation an unsaved person cannot be saved without the convicting presence of the Holy Spirit. He also is God, not simply an esoteric influence. He came to convict: of sin, of righteousness and of judgment. And he does fulfill his duty.
Great post, especially when you showed that the faith given in Romans 12 is to believers. As you said, God does not give spiritual gifts to the unsaved.
Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to reprove the world (the unsaved) of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He does not say the Holy Spirit was sent to give faith to the unsaved.
John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
The word reprove from Strong's Concordance means;
1) to convict, refute, confute
a) generally with a suggestion of shame of the person convicted
b) by conviction to bring to the light, to expose
2) to find fault with, correct
a) by word
1) to reprehend severely, chide, admonish, reprove
2) to call to account, show one his fault, demand an explanation
b) by deed
1) to chasten, to punish
When Peter preached to the Jews on the Day of Pentacost, it says their hearts were pricked.
Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
These men were convicted by the word of God. And you can see they desired to know how to be saved, being yet unsaved, because Peter told them they needed to repent after they asked this question. And Peter also said that after they repent, or turn from unbelief to trust on Christ, that afterward they would receive the Holy Spirit.
The order shown is always,
#1 Hear the word of God
#2 Believe
#3 Receive the Holy Spirit.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
This is always the order of salvation shown in the scriptures. These Jews heard the word of God and were convicted by hearing it. They then repented from unbelief to trust in Christ, and then afterward received the Holy Spirit.
It is perfectly shown in Revelations 3:20
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Jesus is on the outside. He calls out to you, he knocks on your door. This is the word of God. But you must open the door of your own free will. If you will open the door, Jesus has promised to come in. This is when you receive the Spirit.
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