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God's Indisputable Sovereignty
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
I guess I should have put a smiley face there. I do not think of us as puppets. I think maybe you are just mocking me.
OK, I changed it. Now, back to the topic, God knows what you will choose at every instance in the future, and you will most certainly make every choice the way God knows you will. Your free choices are already know by God. Why does it make you feel better to say that those free choices are not ordained by God, even though the outcome is the same either way?
OK, I changed it. Now, back to the topic, God knows what you will choose at every instance in the future, and you will most certainly make every choice the way God knows you will. Your free choices are already know by God. Why does it make you feel better to say that those free choices are not ordained by God, even though the outcome is the same either way?
Then this quote by Christ refutes your theology
Matthew 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
God makes man rebel...so He can show how sovereign He is in destroying Him. I can't believe you guys believe this garbage
Then this quote by Christ refutes your theology
Matthew 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
God makes man rebel...so He can show how sovereign He is in destroying Him. I can't believe you guys believe this garbage
Second, you need to take your objection up with Paul. He says that if God were to create one destined for rebellion simply for the purpose of showing God's wrath on rebellion then you and I can have no rightful complaint. I can't believe that you don't believe Romans 9.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Then this quote by Christ refutes your theology
Matthew 12:25 Knowing their thoughts, He told them: "Every kingdom divided against itself is headed for destruction, and no city or house divided against itself will stand.
God makes man rebel...so He can show how sovereign He is in destroying Him. I can't believe you guys believe this garbage
Romans 9:17-22 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth." 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, "Why have you made me like this?" 21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor? 22 What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction
I am sorry if you don't like my theology. But it is taken word-for-word from Paul. It was his theology and it is mine.
If you accepts God's knowledge to be foreknowledge then you must accept"pedestination" and "election" as being part of God's foreknowledge also.
Now I strongly believe in personal witnessing being a "soulwinner" why do I do this, if predestination and election are set in stone(God's foreknowledge)? Simply because this knowledge is not my knowledge. If after a person clearly understands how they can be saved they just abruptly say no I am not interested, then I quickly hurried by that person I do so because I believe I've met a person whose choice(NO)was predetermined before the world was formed.
Now I strongly believe in personal witnessing being a "soulwinner" why do I do this, if predestination and election are set in stone(God's foreknowledge)? Simply because this knowledge is not my knowledge. If after a person clearly understands how they can be saved they just abruptly say no I am not interested, then I quickly hurried by that person I do so because I believe I've met a person whose choice(NO)was predetermined before the world was formed.
How do you not see it? Jesus' power was accused of being from satan because they wanted to reason that satan possesses a man, then satan throws the demon out of the possessed man. This is where Christ says that a kindom divided against itself will not stand. This would be the exact same thing reversed with Christ. Christ puts the demon in the man, then Christ demands the demon out of the man. Roman 9:17-22 contradicts this the way it is presented by calvinism, so yes, it refutes this theology.
Mima, with all due respect, it is exactly the kind of witnessing you are mentioning that I am so adamantly against and which I think causes so much damage.
Christ spent three years with the same people, helping them understand, becoming known to them, working with them.
But you hurry by.
Major difference in approach, I would say.
Christ spent three years with the same people, helping them understand, becoming known to them, working with them.
But you hurry by.
Major difference in approach, I would say.
How do you not see it? Jesus' power was accused of being from satan because they wanted to reason that satan possesses a man, then satan throws the demon out of the possessed man. This is where Christ says that a kindom divided against itself will not stand. This would be the exact same thing reversed with Christ. Christ puts the demon in the man, then Christ demands the demon out of the man. Roman 9:17-22 contradicts this the way it is presented by calvinism, so yes, it refutes this theology. </font>[/QUOTE]No, no, no, no, no. When we say that God foreordains everything we do not mean that He causes everything, in the sense that you mean it here. God does not cause men to sin and them command them to stop doing what He caused them to do. Foreordain <> cause.
Wow. I agree with you.
The fact that a person says "no" today does not mean that they will say "no" forever. That's why we need to build relationships with people and continually witness Christ to them, and we never know how God will be pleased to use our witness somewhere down the road.
Thank you for agreeing, but...
foreordain does not mean to cause to happen?
or·dain (ôr-dn)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains
1.
a. To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
b. To authorize as a rabbi.
2. To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
3. To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained. See Synonyms at dictate.
further down the page:
4. ordain - issue an order
predestine - decree or determine beforehand
will - decree or ordain; "God wills our existence"
destine, doom, fate, designate - decree or designate beforehand; "She was destined to become a great pianist"
decree - issue a decree; "The King only can decree"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ordain
Look at numbers 3 and 4. That is why I say you are mangling the English language by trying to say that foreordain (fore meaning 'ahead of time') does not mean something is ordered and decided ahead of time!
Now, either God causes everything or He doesn't. No one is arguing that He is the cause of existence. But if a man can sin, then either God caused the man to sin by giving the man no real option, or the man was able to choose to sin by having the option NOT to. Likewise, if a man is predetermined to be chosen, then nothing he does can alter that. In fact, everything he does is predetermined and he has no choice about anything he will do or say or think. He is an automaton of God. Similarly, if a man is not predetermined to be saved, then by the logic of A/non-A, he is predetermined to be condemned to hell/eternal punishment, no matter what he says or thinks or does. He, also, is an automaton of God. And God has therefore caused him to do whatever he does. That makes God the direct author of rebellion against Himself.
And yet Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand.
He was telling the truth or lying. If he was telling the truth, then Calvinism is out the window on not only biblical bases, but on logical ones as well. If He was lying, then He is not God.
foreordain does not mean to cause to happen?
or·dain (ôr-dn)
tr.v. or·dained, or·dain·ing, or·dains
1.
a. To invest with ministerial or priestly authority; confer holy orders on.
b. To authorize as a rabbi.
2. To order by virtue of superior authority; decree or enact.
3. To prearrange unalterably; predestine: by fate ordained. See Synonyms at dictate.
further down the page:
4. ordain - issue an order
predestine - decree or determine beforehand
will - decree or ordain; "God wills our existence"
destine, doom, fate, designate - decree or designate beforehand; "She was destined to become a great pianist"
decree - issue a decree; "The King only can decree"
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ordain
Look at numbers 3 and 4. That is why I say you are mangling the English language by trying to say that foreordain (fore meaning 'ahead of time') does not mean something is ordered and decided ahead of time!
Now, either God causes everything or He doesn't. No one is arguing that He is the cause of existence. But if a man can sin, then either God caused the man to sin by giving the man no real option, or the man was able to choose to sin by having the option NOT to. Likewise, if a man is predetermined to be chosen, then nothing he does can alter that. In fact, everything he does is predetermined and he has no choice about anything he will do or say or think. He is an automaton of God. Similarly, if a man is not predetermined to be saved, then by the logic of A/non-A, he is predetermined to be condemned to hell/eternal punishment, no matter what he says or thinks or does. He, also, is an automaton of God. And God has therefore caused him to do whatever he does. That makes God the direct author of rebellion against Himself.
And yet Jesus said that a house divided against itself cannot stand.
He was telling the truth or lying. If he was telling the truth, then Calvinism is out the window on not only biblical bases, but on logical ones as well. If He was lying, then He is not God.
You are still equating "ordered" and "decided ahead of time" with "caused". This is a classic case of "begging the question". Yes, "foreordained" means determined or decided ahead of time. I've been working from that definition all along, so giving me that definition only sidesteps the issue. It still does not prove that to "foreordain" or "predetermine" something is to "cause" it.
OK, you are saying that if God decides something will happen ahead of time, and orders it and foreordains it to happen, He nevertheless does not cause it to happen....????
He's GOD! If He decides something is going to happen, who else is going to cause it? In creation, He states "Let there be light" -- but He does not cause the light?
He's GOD! If He decides something is going to happen, who else is going to cause it? In creation, He states "Let there be light" -- but He does not cause the light?
He is the first cause or primary cause of all that happens, in the sense that by speaking the world into existence He set in motion all that He knew would happen. I think you would agree with this, maybe.
But yes, I am saying that to foreordain something is not necessarily to cause it. If God decides that something is going to happen then He also decides who will cause it. In creation He did cause the light, but that does not mean that He causes everything that He foreordains.
But yes, I am saying that to foreordain something is not necessarily to cause it. If God decides that something is going to happen then He also decides who will cause it. In creation He did cause the light, but that does not mean that He causes everything that He foreordains.
If He causes who causes the event, He is still responsible. If I hand a gun to you and tell you to shoot someone and you do that (forget free will, I have hypnotized you into doing everything I say...), then I am still responsible for the shooting.
You cannot back God up one step in Calvinism and say He is not responsible for evil in that doctrinal approach.
You cannot back God up one step in Calvinism and say He is not responsible for evil in that doctrinal approach.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Helen, I do agree with you that the type of "witnessing" we talk about today is much different from the sacrificial, time-consuming type of witnessing that took place in biblical times.
We have desired a fast-food approach to salvation, therefore, we have a fast-food approach to witnessing.
Calvibaptist
New Member
Helen, do you, and all other free-willers, have the same problem with the inspiration of Scripture? It is the exact same scenario. God superimposed himself on the writers of Scripture so that what was written was exactly what He wanted, yet the writers never lost their individuality or personalities. They were not automatons.
We take the same idea and apply it to God's sovereignty and man's choices universally. Why do you not have a problem with this when it comes to inspiration, but you do have a problem with it in every other area?
Back to the original tract .
The Will: The will is that faculty of the soul whereby we freely choose or refuse things . It is of the nature of the will to do freely whatsoever it wills .[But] it is unable , till it be changede by grace , to move itself towards God; and to will what is good , is of grace ; our will being free in respect of sinful acts , but bound in respect of good works , till it be made free by Christ . ( Ps.110:3 ;John 8:36; John 15:5; Phil 2:13 ) ( Cruden )
That docrine therefore which teaches ' that when grace is offered we may refuse it if we will , and if we will we may receive it ' is to be looked upon as contrary to the Scriptures .
We all acknowledge dark sayings in Scripture and things ' hard to be understood,' but the difficulty is not so much from the Word as from the natural unbelief , prejudice and darkness within , which are those crooked , wrinkled or discolored mediums men commonly look through at spiritual things .
The doctrine of general love will not stand with that of special election , yet the doctrine of special election will stand without that , and against it , for there is nothing more plain than that there is an election of men to salvation , as also the genuine imprt of election is , to choose one or more out of many , which necessarily implies the leaving or not choosing of some : and consequently the not willing of salvation to all universally . The will of God cannot be resisted successfuly because with His willing the end , He also wills the means . ' My counsel shall stand , I will do all my pleasure . ' ( Coles )
The Will: The will is that faculty of the soul whereby we freely choose or refuse things . It is of the nature of the will to do freely whatsoever it wills .[But] it is unable , till it be changede by grace , to move itself towards God; and to will what is good , is of grace ; our will being free in respect of sinful acts , but bound in respect of good works , till it be made free by Christ . ( Ps.110:3 ;John 8:36; John 15:5; Phil 2:13 ) ( Cruden )
That docrine therefore which teaches ' that when grace is offered we may refuse it if we will , and if we will we may receive it ' is to be looked upon as contrary to the Scriptures .
We all acknowledge dark sayings in Scripture and things ' hard to be understood,' but the difficulty is not so much from the Word as from the natural unbelief , prejudice and darkness within , which are those crooked , wrinkled or discolored mediums men commonly look through at spiritual things .
The doctrine of general love will not stand with that of special election , yet the doctrine of special election will stand without that , and against it , for there is nothing more plain than that there is an election of men to salvation , as also the genuine imprt of election is , to choose one or more out of many , which necessarily implies the leaving or not choosing of some : and consequently the not willing of salvation to all universally . The will of God cannot be resisted successfuly because with His willing the end , He also wills the means . ' My counsel shall stand , I will do all my pleasure . ' ( Coles )
It shows what reason we have to discard forever that groundless and blind opinion , which lays the stress of salvation on a thing of naught , for what else is the will of a frail and mutable man ? The grace of God is little beholden to that doctrine which would give the glry of it to a graceless thing -- man .
... To say that Christ died for all without exception and yet admitting that only a few are saved would seem to tax God of injustice or else that the sufferings of Christ were not sufficient to make a discharge due to them , or it insinuates a deficiency of power , or want of good will , to prosecute His design to perfection.
That election is founded upon grace or the good pleasure of God's will , is the only original cause and motive of election. ( Coles )
... To say that Christ died for all without exception and yet admitting that only a few are saved would seem to tax God of injustice or else that the sufferings of Christ were not sufficient to make a discharge due to them , or it insinuates a deficiency of power , or want of good will , to prosecute His design to perfection.
That election is founded upon grace or the good pleasure of God's will , is the only original cause and motive of election. ( Coles )