God's knowledge vs foreknowledge?

[webdog]

Very good, and very honest question. Here's how I see it according to the scriptures. As sinners, our outward and inward man are in accord with one another. After being saved, the outward man still retains that sinful nature, whereas, the inner man seeks to always please his Master.

Thanks. Which will, then, do you believe man is bound to for the believer, and how is that reconciled with the competing will? For instance, if man is bound to his new nature, how can he sin, and vice versa?

 

[convicted1]

Thanks. Which will, then, do you believe man is bound to for the believer, and how is that reconciled with the competing will? For instance, if man is bound to his new nature, how can he sin, and vice versa?

Man was completely fallen, including his will. As I previously stated, the soul and body worked in complete harmony with each other. They enloyed each other's company, iow. When God changed the will of the inner man at the point of regeneration, He gave him the ability to see his own true vileness, lostness, ineptitude to recover himself from his fallen state. He placed a hunger and thirst for righteousness, which only God could satisfy. When Jesus stated, "Blessed are they which hunger and thirst after righteousness", it shows the blessing is already there, working a will and a do to come to Him in faith believing. God changes the will from loving ourself, to loving Him.

We, as christians, have a warfare of the flesh to contend with. Apostle Paul wrote about it as a "thorn of the flesh, a messenger of satan, sent to buffet him", and we have the same battles as well. The inward man is bound to the new will which God gave him, and it can not sin after being saved. It raises up and squahes the will of the outer man when it rises up and wants to do it own things. The outer man seeks to please itself and the inner man seeks to please God, and will battle each other until we're called home.

 

[webdog]

Man was completely fallen, including his will. As I previously stated, the soul and body worked in complete harmony with each other. They enloyed each other's company, iow. When God changed the will of the inner man at the point of regeneration, He gave him the ability to see his own true vileness, lostness, ineptitude to recover himself from his fallen state. He placed a hunger and thirst for righteousness, which only God could satisfy. When Jesus stated, "Blessed are they which hunger and thirst after righteousness", it shows the blessing is already there, working a will and a do to come to Him in faith believing. God changes the will from loving ourself, to loving Him.

We, as christians, have a warfare of the flesh to contend with. Apostle Paul wrote about it as a "thorn of the flesh, a messenger of satan, sent to buffet him", and we have the same battles as well. The inward man is bound to the new will which God gave him, and it can not sin after being saved. It raises up and squahes the will of the outer man when it rises up and wants to do it own things. The outer man seeks to please itself and the inner man seeks to please God, and will battle each other until we're called home.

I guess the part I'm not understanding is, if one is bound to their inner man, there would be no way the outer man (as you refer to it) would ever overcome the inner, meaning it would be impossible for one to sin. To me the regenerated believer should show that nobody is bound to their nature, be it unregenerated or regenerated. Unregenerate man still possesses the built in means to "...seek him and find him, although he is not far from any one of us". His nature is definitely a detriment, but not overcomeable.

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess the part I'm not understanding is, if one is bound to their inner man, there would be no way the outer man (as you refer to it) would ever overcome the inner, meaning it would be impossible for one to sin. To me the regenerated believer should show that nobody is bound to their nature, be it unregenerated or regenerated. Unregenerate man still possesses the built in means to "...seek him and find him, although he is not far from any one of us". His nature is definitely a detriment, but not overcomeable.

Your reasoning is good! And your conclusion would be true if the inner and outer nature in the lost were not both under the law of sin. In a saved person the inner nature is changed but the outer is still under the law of sin and that is why the saved man's will is still impotent to overcome the law of sin (Rom. 7:18) in the outward man except by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 7:24; 8:12-13).

Our outward man is still perishing because the law of sin still rules over it as it is still corruptible and death and dying are still active in it. In contrast what is born of God can never die (Jn. 11:26).

I am not trying to interfere with your discussion with Convicted, just sharing my insights with you in regard to a very good question and very good logic.

 

[convicted1]

I guess the part I'm not understanding is, if one is bound to their inner man, there would be no way the outer man (as you refer to it) would ever overcome the inner, meaning it would be impossible for one to sin. To me the regenerated believer should show that nobody is bound to their nature, be it unregenerated or regenerated. Unregenerate man still possesses the built in means to "...seek him and find him, although he is not far from any one of us". His nature is definitely a detriment, but not overcomeable.

If the unregenerate had/has the abilty to truly seek God, then why must we first be drawn? The outer man wants to things this his way, and always please himself. It hasn't be risen to the status the inner man has been risen to. It's nature is still in it's unchanged state, fallen.

 

[convicted1]

Your reasoning is good! And your conclusion would be true if the inner and outer nature in the lost were not both under the law of sin. In a saved person the inner nature is changed but the outer is still under the law of sin and that is why the saved man's will is still impotent to overcome the law of sin (Rom. 7:18) in the outward man except by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God (Rom. 7:24; 8:12-13).

Henceforth, the outer man will taste death because it still sins. The inward man will never taste death because it has been made alive forevermore.

Our outward man is still perishing because the law of sin still rules over it as it is still corruptible and death and dying are still active in it. In contrast what is born of God can never die (Jn. 11:26).

:thumbsup:

I am not trying to interfere with your discussion with Convicted, just sharing my insights with you in regard to a very good question and very good logic.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[webdog]

If the unregenerate had/has the abilty to truly seek God, then why must we first be drawn? The outer man wants to things this his way, and always please himself. It hasn't be risen to the status the inner man has been risen to. It's nature is still in it's unchanged state, fallen.

The seeking only occurs after that which has been given to him him from the onset, what I term the Four C's... creation, conscience (His law placed in their heart), circumstances (being placed in the precise location geographically and in history to seek Him), and Ceaselessness, the desire to live forever, Ecc. 3:11. Man was born with the flesh AND God's drawing already built in. There is no other way man could suppress the truth as we read in Romans 1.

 

[Luke2427]

The seeking only occurs after that which has been given to him him from the onset, what I term the Four C's... creation, conscience (His law placed in their heart), circumstances (being placed in the precise location geographically and in history to seek Him), and Ceaselessness, the desire to live forever, Ecc. 3:11. Man was born with the flesh AND God's drawing already built in. There is no other way man could suppress the truth as we read in Romans 1.

I like your four c's- I really do.

I think you are right about their existence and what they do.

Most Calvinists believe God uses means to bring people to himself. Now, many Calvinists espouse a mystical means- almost like Holy Spirit fairy dust that God sprinkles on a person's heart and they suddenly believe apart from the "four c's."

But others of us deny this mystical means.

The way it works is this:

The heavens SCREAM at a man every day- God is awesome and greatly to be feared! Humble yourself and repent of your sins against him!

The conscience cries within a man- this thing you are doing is not what a creature such as yourself OUGHT to do!

Circumstances (i. e. Providence)- hems a man in driving him to Christ.

Ceaselessness, the terror of death and eternity, keep him up at night pondering these things.

And eventually he bows to the Lordship of Christ and is saved.

God uses these very means that you describe here to regenerate a man.

But many do not get saved. Why? Because they cannot hear the message in these things because they do not have ears to hear.

The weird thing about the way the Gospel works is that the cure so that you can hear and be saved is the very same thing you must hear to be saved.

The message (in the stars AND in the Scriptures) opens the ears and enables one to hear.

God simply makes sure that the message that enables deaf ears to hear falls upon the ears of his elect.

 

[The Biblicist]

I like your four c's- I really do.



The heavens SCREAM at a man every day- God is awesome and greatly to be feared! Humble yourself and repent of your sins against him!

There is no gospel in nature. Romans 1:20-21 explains that nature conveys there is a God and He is one of power and order.

The conscience cries within a man- this thing you are doing is not what a creature such as yourself OUGHT to do!

Conscience convicts of wrong and approves of right but there is no gospel in conscience.

Circumstances (i. e. Providence)- hems a man in driving him to Christ.

No, but circumstances do drive man to the end of themselves (2 Cor. 1:8-10) but there is no gospel in circumstances.

Ceaselessness, the terror of death and eternity, keep him up at night pondering these things.

Until he sears his conscience as David describes the ungodly as having no terror in their death (Psa. 89).

And eventually he bows to the Lordship of Christ and is saved.

No, there is no bowing to the Lordship of Christ due to nature, conscience, circumstances or fear but rather the very reverse as those in Revelation 9 only became hardened and cursed God in spite of alll this.

God uses these very means that you describe here to regenerate a man.

God does not use any of these EXTERNAL means or any other means to regenerate but regeneration is a direct creative act of God that occurs INTERNALLY by God alone - 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10; James 1:18.

The best way to understand the use of the EXTERNAL gospel word and the INTERNAL Creative power of God in regeneration is the way Paul explained it by analogy in 2 Cor. 4:6-7 and 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

When God regenerates His elect, the EXTERNAL gospel spoken at the precise time chosen by God is infused with His creative power just as the word spoken in Genesis 1:3 was infused with the creative power of God so that light was created out of nothing. Likewise, there is a creative revelation/knowlegdge of Christ INTERNALLY that transfers them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, enabling ears to hear and willingness to believe so that power is of God and not of men.

 

[Luke2427]

There is no gospel in nature. Romans 1:20-21 explains that nature conveys there is a God and He is one of power and order.



Conscience convicts of wrong and approves of right but there is no gospel in conscience.



No, but circumstances do drive man to the end of themselves (2 Cor. 1:8-10) but there is no gospel in circumstances.



Until he sears his conscience as David describes the ungodly as having no terror in their death (Psa. 89).



No, there is no bowing to the Lordship of Christ due to nature, conscience, circumstances or fear but rather the very reverse as those in Revelation 9 only became hardened and cursed God in spite of alll this.



God does not use any of these EXTERNAL means or any other means to regenerate but regeneration is a direct creative act of God that occurs INTERNALLY by God alone - 2 Cor. 4:6; Eph. 2:10; James 1:18.

The best way to understand the use of the EXTERNAL gospel word and the INTERNAL Creative power of God in regeneration is the way Paul explained it by analogy in 2 Cor. 4:6-7 and 1 Thes. 1:4-5.

When God regenerates His elect, the EXTERNAL gospel spoken at the precise time chosen by God is infused with His creative power just as the word spoken in Genesis 1:3 was infused with the creative power of God so that light was created out of nothing. Likewise, there is a creative revelation/knowlegdge of Christ INTERNALLY that transfers them from the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of light, enabling ears to hear and willingness to believe so that power is of God and not of men.

No, God uses means to bring people to the truth.

Nature is one of those means.
I don't see why you think any of the verses you provided say otherwise.

 

[Skandelon]

No, God uses means to bring people to the truth.

Nature is one of those means.
I don't see why you think any of the verses you provided say otherwise.

We found a point we agree upon! Whoohooo! :thumbsup:

 

[Benjamin]

Your definition is irrational nonsense! Read my lips slowly - The will, regardless if it is God's or man's does not exist in a vacuum, it is not an isolated entity, it does not function apart from influence either external or internal, that kind of will does not exist and cannot exist or it would be another creature or being in an of itself.

Yet another fallacy with this smokescreen you offer while you talk out of both side of your mouth and make use of a strawman.

My view of free will holds (always!) to influence and response (that is why they 'choose") but you attempt to form a strawman as if they respond to nothing ("apart from influence" = "strawman" and you if you don't know that about the non-C its time to study up)! No credible non-C holds to your nonsensical suggestion that we believe a person's will is so free that they choose to believe without divine influence - which goes to every man in the whole world, not just the predestined elect world BTW ...again, (Rom 1:20).


Your view holds to predestination and determination of the will WHICH IS FAR from being free in any rational sense as my logical equation in my signature clearly spells out. Your view unavoidably rests on "cause and effect" rather than in "influence and response" yet in your last post, as usual the Determinists begin talking out of the other side their mouth to preserve a human freedom that cannot possibly exist in your deterministic system. Every part of your TULIP necessarily must logically hold to strict determinism - meaning a determined cause and must result in an irresistible effect.

Any honest person that is even vaguely familiar with critical thinking skills and logical principles can see that my equation logically holds to a true conclusion about the definition of "volition" being the conscious ability to choose. No DUH! they choose after an "influence" MR. Strawman.

You continually argue for a determined response to a irresistible influence and you know it. That is, until your Determinist system begins to be drug down into fatalistic theology then you backtrack with your illogical and "irrational nonsense" which my equation spells out for you.

 

[Iconoclast]

Luke2427.

Most Calvinists believe God uses means to bring people to himself. Now, many Calvinists espouse a mystical means- almost like Holy Spirit fairy dust that God sprinkles on a person's heart and they suddenly believe apart from the "four c's."

But others of us deny this mystical means.

I do not think that the work of the Spirit which is clearly revealed to be His direct working should be spoken of by you as....MYSTICAL MEANS.

Maybe I am not reading your post correctly.

25 And I have sprinkled over you clean water, And ye have been clean; From all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols, I do cleanse you.

26 And I have given to you a new heart, And a new spirit I give in your midst, And I have turned aside the heart of stone out of your flesh, And I have given to you a heart of flesh.

27 And My Spirit I give in your midst, And I have done this, so that in My statutes ye walk, And My judgments ye keep, and have done them.


Jesus described this in Jn 3-

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


This unseen work of the Spirit manifests itself from the inside out.

It is spiritual, not mystical......it is not just educational and mental.
The natural aspects of our human frame ,hearing ,seeing, thinking, are enabled by the Spirit to begin to correctly process the things freely given by the Spirit.

This is the effectual working of the Spirit.


10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.