God's purpose for evil's existence

[Salamander]

This "thought" was expressed in the thread about Warren's prayer.

What I have seen according to the remarks concerning the existence of evil as if it is God's will that evil exists so men will suffer due to evil, is it leaves one with an impression they must suffer to be in God's will.

I know the whole creation suffers and groans together, that is all people suffer, some more than others, but all do suffer.

What is an inevitable conclusion in the ideal that men suffer because God has an intended purpose of sorts, is that the sufferings of Christ were not enough and man "must" complete the suffering in order to be saved?

I'm addressing the thought of suffering being the will of God, not "how to be saved".

Didn't Jesus satisfy God in his sufferings? Or is it as some seem to be saying that we must also suffer because it is the purpose of God allowing evil to exist?

Suffering is due to sin in general as well as it can be for individual sin in recompense or result for sins.

I'm afraid that thinking suffering is allowed by God as in his having a purpose for the existence of evil hints too much towards a hyper-dispensation of our having to complete salvation.

I know of a very few who believe the sufferings of Paul completed salvation and we nned to lok to him instead of Jesus.

 

[Dr. Bob]

The more sin/wickedness is evident, the greater the praise and glory of God's grace

So many try to whitewash evil and by doing thus demean grace.

Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds!

Thus the underlying principle of why evil exists - to glorify God's grace!

 

[Revmitchell]

God did not create evil He did create the possibility of evil because of love. When there is no choice to love or not there is no love. Evil arises out of a failure to love.

 

[4His_glory]

The more sin/wickedness is evident, the greater the praise and glory of God's grace

So many try to whitewash evil and by doing thus demean grace.

Where sin abounds, grace super-abounds!

Thus the underlying principle of why evil exists - to glorify God's grace!

Amen. I totally agree.

I would also add that God´s punishment of evil glorifies His justice and holiness- again evil exists to glorify God.

Obviously He is not the source of evil as some have tried to claim.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I would also add that God´s punishment of evil glorifies His justice and holiness- again evil exists to glorify God.

From the first English Baptist Confession of faith (1644, revised 1689)
By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of His glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of His glorious justice.

GOD gets the glory of it all!

 

[Jim1999]

Please note in that quote, God does not predestinate both the elect and the evil. The latter are left to their own destiny.

Couldn't pass that by.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[preachinjesus]

I'm a big fan of Dr. Alvin Plantinga's Free Will Defense in answering the Evidential Problem of Evil.

To be honest, and not attempting to slight others, I just find the double determinist has a hard time justifying their view in light of the presentation of a benevolent God in the Scriptures. It just seems difficult for me.

 

[Salamander]

Question: does evil exist so we suffer for it to work out the completion of salvation?

Isn't what Jesus suffering and dying for man's sin enough? If so, then why is it some seem to think we must suffer?

Grace exists inspite of evil. Evil doesn't exist so grace might have fortitude, but since evil now exists, grace is more than evil or its ramifications could ever be.

 

[webdog]

Please note in that quote, God does not predestinate both the elect and the evil. The latter are left to their own destiny.

Couldn't pass that by.

Cheers,

Jim

...so they have a destiny that has been pre-planned, else where they end up is a surprise to God. That's predestination.

 

[Salamander]

...so they have a destiny that has been pre-planned, else where they end up is a surprise to God. That's predestination.

you're advocating slander against the Holy One of Israel.

 

[webdog]

you're advocating slander against the Holy One of Israel.

I'm not advocating anything, just stating a fact. If you have two groups of people, one is "chosen", then the destiny of those not "chosen" have been chosen by default, unless it surprised God. I say that facetiously.

 

[Salamander]

joking or jesting often inappropriately is mocking the Lord when you make ascertians about man's destiny when the Gospel is concerned about it's power to change the unrenerate into the regenerated.

 

[webdog]

joking or jesting often inappropriately is mocking the Lord when you make ascertians about man's destiny when the Gospel is concerned about it's power to change the unrenerate into the regenerated.

I'm only using the same strawman they are using when they call me an open theist. It's not "mocking". This coming from someone who is telling me the evil motivations and heart of a pastor called by God. The log and the speck fit perfectly here.

 

[Dr. Bob]

I'm not advocating anything, just stating a fact. If you have two groups of people, one is "chosen", then the destiny of those not "chosen" have been chosen by default, unless it surprised God. I say that facetiously.

Either our eternal God is sovereign or man (as "god") is sovereign. Can't surprise God with who gets saved. He selected them to receive His grace before the creation of planet earth - that's older than me!!

 

[webdog]

Either our eternal God is sovereign or man (as "god") is sovereign. Can't surprise God with who gets saved. He selected them to receive His grace before the creation of planet earth - that's older than me!!

That's a non sequitur. Of course God is sovereign, but He also remains sovereign in His permissive will.

 

[Salamander]

I'm only using the same strawman they are using when they call me an open theist. It's not "mocking". This coming from someone who is telling me the evil motivations and heart of a pastor called by God. The log and the speck fit perfectly here.

care to explain your whimsy there?

 

[Salamander]

Either our eternal God is sovereign or man (as "god") is sovereign. Can't surprise God with who gets saved. He selected them to receive His grace before the creation of planet earth - that's older than me!!

No "either/or's" with God or man. God is God and man is not God.

Man will either turn or burn, else there was no reason for Calvary.

 

[Jonah]

Yet another ambient post

One thing about suffering, it keeps you from being too proud of yourself.

If I build an airplane with the knowledge that someone could fly it into a building, it doesn't mean that was my intention. Does that mean airplanes should have never been built?

Consider the incomprehensible. What good is there in creating a being that has a choice? I mean if you create a boundary where that choice is contrary to your design then how is it a choice? But then again how could you have something and not have it at the same time.

We can't even predict our own inventions else programmers would create perfect code.
So how is it we are supposed to understand the question, why does God allow evil?

Paul says where evil abounds grace more abounds but thats not a reason to sin.
Romans 5:20 ...But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound... 6:1
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Which brings me to this. That it is neither my right or place to try to understand the mind of God and there are some things He has chosen not to explain in His word. And not only do I believe that He is not only capable, He knows all possible outcomes of our choices and the entire history of earth to the smallest detail, what will play out because I believe He is already there as well as here and is now present at the beginning of time.

Personally, if it were me I would have stopped at galaxies and solar-systems.
:godisgood:

 

[4His_glory]

One thing about suffering, it keeps you from being too proud of yourself.

It should, but how often do we seen our fallen society shake their fist at God when suffering befalls then instead of turn to Him in repentance and faith. But I know what you mean I think.

We can't even predict our own inventions else programmers would create perfect code.
So how is it we are supposed to understand the question, why does God allow evil?

We can understand the question because God reveals to us in His word why He allows evil to continue. True we may not understand the specific details of His purposes in a given situation, but we can understand that He does have a greater purpose for all that takes place including the evil devices of mankind. (again that does not mean God is the source of said evil)

The book of Habakkuk, I think, is good to study in relation to this topic. The prophet asks the question: "How long will you allow the evil of Judah to continue?" To Habbakkuk it seemed like an inconstancy in God´s justice. But God´s response further complicated the problem: "I am going to destroy Judah with the Chaldeans." To this the prophet asks: "How can you use an even more wicked people to punish your people." God says: "Because I am going to judge them as well." Again Habbakkuk struggles with this, but finally comes to grip, like Job; with the sovereign character of God. He learns that God is not to be worshiped for the blessings He gives or does not give, but because of Who He is.

I think the book of Habbakkuk does answer to a degree the reason God allows evil- again its so that in all things He might be glorified.

 

[Salamander]

One thing about suffering, it keeps you from being too proud of yourself.

If I build an airplane with the knowledge that someone could fly it into a building, it doesn't mean that was my intention. Does that mean airplanes should have never been built?

Consider the incomprehensible. What good is there in creating a being that has a choice? I mean if you create a boundary where that choice is contrary to your design then how is it a choice? But then again how could you have something and not have it at the same time.

We can't even predict our own inventions else programmers would create perfect code.
So how is it we are supposed to understand the question, why does God allow evil?

Paul says where evil abounds grace more abounds but thats not a reason to sin.
Romans 5:20 ...But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound... 6:1
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Which brings me to this. That it is neither my right or place to try to understand the mind of God and there are some things He has chosen not to explain in His word. And not only do I believe that He is not only capable, He knows all possible outcomes of our choices and the entire history of earth to the smallest detail, what will play out because I believe He is already there as well as here and is now present at the beginning of time.

Personally, if it were me I would have stopped at galaxies and solar-systems.
:godisgood:

Well reasoned, but in the overall picture we must remember this about God: He is the God of all mercy, and mercy as the cure for all evil. God is not cruel, neither is he a tyrant.

Evil is the essence of sin and is totally independent, and not of God.

I don't have to understand the mind of God and his reason for allowing evil to exist, I only have to lay myself down at His feet and trust in His mercy and grace for MY sin/evil actions.

I'm absolutely certain that alot of my own sufferings would never had occured if I had not sinned against God or man.

I do not even begin to believe that God instituted me sinning just so later he could make me suffer for it and then grant me only enough mercy so I could suffer some more! This ideal would be cruelty in its greatest measure.

I serve the mercifiul God, I'mnot sure what god so many others serve, or maybe they just don't YET understand the mercy of God?:godisgood: