God's Sovereignty

[Skandelon]

Who is in control over the heart of a man when he chooses whom he will serve? God or the man?

When man sins he is attempting to take control and be his own God. When man humbles himself, gives up, and let's God take control then God chooses to exalt man by his Grace and for His Glory. Thus, when man sins its all the man's fault, and when man gives up control it's all God's Glory!

Under your system where God is equally 'controlling' the sinful responses as he is his own responses, God is reduced to a puppeteer.

 

[Skandelon]

When one side accuses the other of not affirming "sovereignty" they are simply begging the question, because the very point up for debate is being assumed: Did God, who is sovereign, choose for men to make a contra-causally free choice in regard to their salvation?

By the way, you can exchange that attribute with other attributes as well: Did God, who is holy, choose for men to make a free choice?" etc... If one wants to make an actual argument (without fallacy) they must show how one view or the other is incompatible with the particular attribute.

 

[Iconoclast]

God works his plan based on the actions of men. .

The God of the bible does not base his plans on anything other than His will of purpose. Nothing outside of God himself causes Him to do anything.

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Except on the BB...where people always question God's ways...and ask what doest thou:thumbs:

In Scripture:

1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

On the BB the writer in proverbs must have not understood????
,
God waits to learn which way the king would like to go because he wanted to let the king choose...then God puts a stamp on it:BangHead:

 

[preacher4truth]

God works his plan based on the actions of men. Look at Nineveh for example. Had they not repented, he most certainly would have destroyed them. Same with Israel/Judah in so many cases. No need to argue a settled fact guys. That God does so doesn't make him less sovereign. Not doing so would negate other attributes.

Total nonsense.

If this is the case, (and yours certainly is a most unscriptural and spurious conclusion) then it is man that is sovereign, and not God, and God is waiting on man to do something so He can react like a bellhop. Utter foolishness and false teaching. This is the exact same ideology that Kenneth Copeland preaches.

By the way, it is God's goodness that leads to repentance, not mans decision at all, it is His enabling. Thus you're errant thoughts aren't even close to being 'settled facts.' They're actually fallacious teachings and anthropocentric driven errors.

I'm simply amazed at the droves of persons heading down the path of deconstructionist thinking in relation to the attributes of God, i.e. stripping sovereignty from God and giving this attribute to man all the while stating it makes God even more -or- it doesn't make Him any less Sovereign.

 

[Benjamin]

God works his plan based on the actions of men. Look at Nineveh for example. Had they not repented, he most certainly would have destroyed them. Same with Israel/Judah in so many cases. No need to argue a settled fact guys. That God does so doesn't make him less sovereign. Not doing so would negate other attributes.

Sorry, but consideration of other divine attributes doesn't fit in with the Determinist Doctrines, and apparently is doesn't matter how many are negated, their interpretation of sovereignty must hold above else for their doctrine to work and therefore THAT settles it! Don't like it? Lump it! Want to argue about? Oh, they will give you an argument all right! What it to be logical? Forget it! They have already told you their view of "sovereignty" settles it!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I'm simply amazed at the droves of persons heading down the path of deconstructionist thinking in relation to the attributes of God, i.e. stripping sovereignty from God and giving this attribute to man all the while stating it makes God even more -or- it doesn't make Him any less Sovereign.

Why brother would you be amazed? Throughout historical theology have you not seen people fight over these very points, probably starting with Augustine Vs Pelagian? All one needs to do to start an argument is suggest it as a topic of discussion. Then you get the back and forth.

 

[Forest]

God is sovereign when He opens the heart of man (His Sovereign choice) and gives him a choice to respond to him because that is the way God wants it done in His sovereignty. That is God's will and plan therefore this is not a Sovereignty issue.

You may disagree that this is the will of God but such a debate does not involve the sovereignty of God. We both see It seems to suggest that is only a pejorative and a way to beat others down. To engage this difference in this way is sophomoric, irresponsible, and dishonest.

God is sovereign in the eternal salvation of his elect. Man has no input to getting himself eternally saved. It is all according to God's will and God accomplishes his will. If it is God's will, which it is not, to save all mankind, then God is sovereign in his power and ability to carry out his will, Isa 50:2, Dan 4:35.

 

[Forest]

Agreed. Who put the law in the hearts of all men? Who made all that is created? Who set the desire to live forever in the hearts of all men? Who placed each and every human being in the perfect location and place geographically to seek Him "and perhaps find Him although He is not far from any of us". Who purchased us? Who gave The Gift?

The accusation any true believer does not hold to God being sovereign is "clueless"

We are all born into this world as natural beings, and the natural man has no desire to seek to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14. Ps 10:4, Ps 73:11. Job 21:14.

 

[preacher4truth]

Why brother would you be amazed? Throughout historical theology have you not seen people fight over these very points, probably starting with Augustine Vs Pelagian? All one needs to do to start an argument is suggest it as a topic of discussion. Then you get the back and forth.

What amazes me is these call themselves Baptists.

 

[Forest]

And this is the strawman made on this board all the time. It seems it is done as a result of tunnel vision that creates ignorance. When God opens up the heart of man and gives man the opportunity to accept or reject Him that is His sovereign will and activity.

God does not open up the heart of man until after God has quickened him to a spiritual life. 2 Cor 3:3, Paul's letter written to the church of God which is at Corinth, Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God, not in tables of stone, but in fleshly tables of the heart. God does not write the epistle of Christ in the natural man.

 

[Forest]

God works his plan based on the actions of men. Look at Nineveh for example. Had they not repented, he most certainly would have destroyed them. Same with Israel/Judah in so many cases. No need to argue a settled fact guys. That God does so doesn't make him less sovereign. Not doing so would negate other attributes.

The fact that God thought to chasten Nineveh, is evidence that the inhabitants of Nineveh were his elect children. God does not chasten those that are not his. Heb 12:6, Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scorgest every son whom he receiveth. If it is true, and it is, that God chastens all that he loves, then it would be true that if he does not chasten certian people he does not love them. Ps 73:5, They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued (divinly punished) like other men. Job 21:9, Their houses are safe from fear, neither is the rod of God upon them. Rom 8:9, Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

 

[Skandelon]

The fact that God thought to chasten Nineveh, is evidence that the inhabitants of Nineveh were his elect children.

Just food for thought. The Prophet Nahum calls judgment upon Nineveh not too long after Jonah was there. How does that fit with the concept of their being the effectually called elect of God?

 

[Forest]

Just food for thought. The Prophet Nahum calls judgment upon Nineveh not too long after Jonah was there. How does that fit with the concept of their being the effectually called elect of God?

God's elect are judged by God, chastened, while they live out their lives here on earth and will not taste of death at the last day, but will go into life eternal and the wicked will be judged at the last day and will go away into everlasting punishment. Matt 25:35-46.

 

[convicted1]

Just food for thought. The Prophet Nahum calls judgment upon Nineveh not too long after Jonah was there. How does that fit with the concept of their being the effectually called elect of God?

Approx. 100 years later, if I am thinking correctly, per my Nelson's KJV ref. bible.

 

[jonathan.borland]

And had Nineveh continued in following God he wouldn't have destroyed them. Their disobedient actions determined God's judgment against them. Pure reading of the word, folks.

 

[Aaron]

When man ... let's God take control...

So the man is in control of the decision to be saved, i.e., God has yielded His sovereignty over that decision to the heart of man.

 

[Cypress]

So the man is in control of the decision to be saved, i.e., God has yielded His sovereignty over that decision to the heart of man.

Why not Aaron?

 

[jonathan.borland]

So the man is in control of the decision to be saved, i.e., God has yielded His sovereignty over that decision to the heart of man.

God is no less sovereign when wars break out and kill millions of innocents than when a sinner chooses to repent when confronted with conviction of his sin through the Holy Spirit.

 

[Skandelon]

So the man is in control of the decision to be saved, i.e., God has yielded His sovereignty over that decision to the heart of man.

"Humble yourselves and you will be exalted" = "yield control and God will lift you up"

As a father, are you 'yielding authority' if you allow your child to freely respond to your command? Or must you physically force your child to obey EVERY time in order to maintain your authority and prove your strength is greater?

 

[glfredrick]

And had Nineveh continued in following God he wouldn't have destroyed them. Their disobedient actions determined God's judgment against them. Pure reading of the word, folks.

100 years in the future are a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT BUNCH OF PEOPLE. God doesn't save NATIONS, He saves INDIVIDUALS.

You guys are arguing stuff you cannot even comprehend.