At last, an honest answer.
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God's Sovereignty
- Thread starter mandym
- Start date
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil. When he chooses to do evil, he does not countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it. If in His absolute freedom God has willed to give man limited freedom, who is there to stay His hand or say, ‘What dost thou?’ Man’s will is free because God is sovereign. A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon his creatures. He would be afraid to do so." - AW Tozer
jonathan.borland
Active Member
Thanks for the Tozer quote. Could you provide the bibliographical info.? Thanks!
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
A.W. Tozer, The Knowledge of the Holy, chapter 22 "The Sovereignty of God"
Book can be found online here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060684127/?tag=baptis04-20
Book can be found online here:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/0060684127/?tag=baptis04-20
glfredrick
New Member
Which is precisely what I have been arguing forever...
But, discern from the Tozer post that God IS sovereign, even as man makes free MORAL choices.
saturneptune
New Member
And you do comprehend? God does not save nations in relation to eternal life, but He does judge them, and deals with them. Try 1 Chron 7:14. If others do not comprehend, why dont you tell us, in explicit detail, how God's sovereignty and man's free will mix and relate to each other where they meet in any given situation, according to the Scripture, not according to ten thousand opinions like the ones in this thread.
glfredrick
New Member
Equivocation... Nations are made of people. God judges people. As a group of people form a nation that nation is judged because of its citizens, not because it is an entity on the map.
The "nation" of Ninevah was made of an entirely different group of people 100 years after the fact of Job's crusade. We might look at Israel in the same light. God "saved" the people of the nation from Egypt and led them across the Red Sea and into the wilderness. That group rebelled against God and became condemned -- nation was STILL God's people -- but THOSE PEOPLE all died in the wilderness save Joshua and Caleb. An entire NEW generation crossed over the Jordan into the Promised Land -- again as God's People -- until they AGAIN sinned and were judged.
God sovereignly yielded sovereignty to man in this choice. Man's heart is in control, and on it's own accord chooses either good or evil. Just be honest like Cypress.
You do realize the Bible consists of 66 books and not just 4 verses, right?
quantumfaith
Active Member
Where does it say this?
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Let me break it down for you...
"God sovereignly decreed that man should be free."
"[God sovereignly decreed for man to be able] to exercise moral choice, and man from the beginning has fulfilled that decree by making his choice between good and evil."
"When he chooses to do evil, he does not countervail the sovereign will of God but fulfills it, inasmuch as the eternal decree decided not which choice the man should make but that he should be free to make it."
"Man’s will is free because God is sovereign."
"A God less than sovereign could not bestow moral freedom upon his creatures. He would be afraid to do so." - AW Tozer
No sir...That is spin and not genuine. The choice man has is given to him form God. Regardless of the choice of man, man could not receive salvation if God did not offer it. You definition of God's sovereignty is not found in scripture.
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
Sounds like you need to do the discerning because Tozer is NOT a Calvinist and would not affirm the claims of 'compatibilistic' teaching...(i.e. man is free as long as he is doing what he wants, but God is ultimately responsible for determining what man wants.)
God sovereignly decreed that man should be sovereign in his moral choices. That's what you're saying.
Last edited by a moderator:
Define freedom.
I didn't counter it. I simply rephrased it.
And this is your explaination of those 4 verses? Is this a discussion or not?
The natural man, void of the Spirit, will not choose to serve a spiritual God. 1 Cor 2:14.
Can you give me a scripture where God offers eternal salvation?