God's View of Unbelievers

[jbh28]

In your view only a regenerate person has the ability to come to Christ, it is utterly impossible for the unregenerate to be willing to come. It is not a POSSIBLE option for them.

The funny thing is, for once you gave an accurate definition of what a true choice is. You are coming along.

And as Quantum pointed out, God knows it is impossible for the unregenerate to be willing to believe if your doctrine is true. That would make God's offer empty, insincere, and even mocking of the unelect.

How anyone can believe this nonsense is beyond me.

Sorry, but I'm not going to play games with you. God could care less if you think he is fair or not. It's not possible because they are unwilling, not because God prevents them from coming.

Remember, in your view you have an atonement for everyone, yet God doesn't save everyone. Imagine if your child was in a burning building and you offered to save them, but because they said no, you watch the burn.....See, it works both ways. I'll just stick with the Scripture. The Scripture teaches that man's will is in bondage to sin. He sins because he wants to. He rejects God because he doesn't want to come. That's what the Scripture teaches. It's very fair. God has offered salvation. It is a sincere offer because God will save ALL that come to him. And insincere offer is one that God has no intention of keeping, such is not the case. God will save all that come to him. Every single person in hell will be there because they willingly choose to reject God.

 

[saturneptune]

The reason you don't get it is because it is a fallacy.

Why is it that every thread you touch seems to degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate. Not every doctrine of the Bible rotates around that one issue. There has been more endless, mindless, debate on this subject than any other. The bottom line is that we have Bible and Holy Spirit to guide us into all things the Lord wants us to know. All the debate in the world is merely man's opinion, as verse after verse has been used to support both sides and every shade in between. Since you have not been privy (as none of us have) to the mind of the Lord, and in all honesty, you do not understand exactly how God's sovereignty and man's responsibility works in some fashion, why not let it go. Let God be God. What possible difference of who ultimately wins the debate makes to the salvation of one soul? About as much difference as Bible versions, how long the Creation took, if and how the Rapture happens. How much time is spent making elaborate arguments for and against Calvinism, or free will, compared to how much time is spent telling others about Jesus?

 

[jbh28]

But no one has the desire to come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws them, so what you are saying is that God has chosen to not draw some people, thereby leaving them in their state of not desiring to come to God.

True.

They have no hope of salvation without the drawing of the Holy Spirit. But that is not what the bible teaches. There is hope for all men because Christ died for the whole world, not just part of it.

And his death is sufficient for everyone. God doesn't have to draw anyone. They will go to hell because they are a sinner. The arguments from some on here of an idea that God is somehow obligated to save anyone. God offers salvation, man rejects. God does draw some of these that have rejected to come to him. He's under no obligate to draw everyone just as he's under no obligate to save those that don't believe.

 

[Winman]

But no one has the desire to come to God unless the Holy Spirit draws them, so what you are saying is that God has chosen to not draw some people, thereby leaving them in their state of not desiring to come to God.

They have no hope of salvation without the drawing of the Holy Spirit. But that is not what the bible teaches. There is hope for all men because Christ died for the whole world, not just part of it.

It doesn't matter to JBH that God knows the unregenerate are unable to be willing to come to Christ. God offered them an impossible option, but JBH considers this a legitimate choice.

It's all word games. If this doctrine were true these games would be unnecessary.

 

[saturneptune]

It doesn't matter to JBH that God knows the unregenerate are unable to be willing to come to Christ. God offered them an impossible option, but JBH considers this a legitimate choice.

It's all word games. If this doctrine were true these games would be unnecessary.

Just because you do not understand it does not make it an impossible option. You do not know any more or less than the other side. It is all opinion, not Biblical doctrine.

 

[Winman]

Just because you do not understand it does not make it an impossible option. You do not know any more or less than the other side. It is all opinion, not Biblical doctrine.

By JBH's own definition, a choice consists of at least two POSSIBLE options. He is correct here, this is an accurate definition.

But in Calvinism it is not POSSIBLE for an unregenerate person to be willing to come to Christ. That is your doctrine. So the unregenerate, by JBH's own definition, do not have a choice of coming to Christ.

This is not difficult, perhaps it is you that does not understand your own doctrine.

 

[Amy.G]

True.

And his death is sufficient for everyone. God doesn't have to draw anyone. They will go to hell because they are a sinner. The arguments from some on here of an idea that God is somehow obligated to save anyone. God offers salvation, man rejects. God does draw some of these that have rejected to come to him. He's under no obligate to draw everyone just as he's under no obligate to save those that don't believe.

God has obligated Himself because His word says that He will draw all men to Himself. God cannot lie and He always keeps His word.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

 

[Amy.G]

True.

And his death is sufficient for everyone.

Not according to Calvinism. His death cannot be sufficient for "everyone" in the system of Calvinism because for the non elect Christ's death is meaningless. It has NO effect for them.

 

[saturneptune]

By JBH's own definition, a choice consists of at least two POSSIBLE options. He is correct here, this is an accurate definition.

But in Calvinism it is not POSSIBLE for an unregenerate person to be willing to come to Christ. That is your doctrine. So the unregenerate, by JBH's own definition, do not have a choice of coming to Christ.

This is not difficult, perhaps it is you that does not understand your own doctrine.

You see, that is how far off base you are. That is not my doctrine, and you have no idea what it is. You do not read posts. Only someone with a total lack of understanding (as much as has been revealed to us by the Lord), would deny elements of God's sovereignty or man' responsibility. I have not posted on this board in over a year, and you were doing the exact same thing when I left.

 

[Winman]

You see, that is how far off base you are. That is not my doctrine, and you have no idea what it is. You do not read posts. Only someone with a total lack of understanding (as much as has been revealed to us by the Lord), would deny elements of God's sovereignty or man' responsibility. I have not posted on this board in over a year, and you were doing the exact same thing when I left.

If you are a Calvinist and hold to the Calvinist doctrine of Total Depravity, then you believe that unregenerate men are unable to be willing to come to and believe Christ.

Do you believe it is possible for an unregenerate man to be willing to believe in Jesus?

 

[convicted1]

Not at all. Men choose sin and wickedness because of their wicked unregenerate hearts (John 3:19; 5:40 etc.). Man's inability is moral, not constitutional.

Steve

Uh, according to the DoG view, man is born already condemned. The choice has already been made for them. They have no choice.

 

[Iconoclast]

What he posted is exactly what Calvinism teaches. Please stop saying what we say we believe isn't what we believe. You notice how I accuse you of straw men, this is why. We say, we believe A, you say no, you believe B and argue against B. Why don't you just argue against what we say we believe instead of making stuff up about what we believe.

Exactly ...his position is flawed, so he has to make statements like this;

therefore it was God who gave you this sinful nature.

This should not be posted on a christian board.....you cast evil motive on those who believe the biblical testimony.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Why is it that every thread you touch seems to degenerate into a Calvin-free will debate. Not every doctrine of the Bible rotates around that one issue. There has been more endless, mindless, debate on this subject than any other. The bottom line is that we have Bible and Holy Spirit to guide us into all things the Lord wants us to know. All the debate in the world is merely man's opinion, as verse after verse has been used to support both sides and every shade in between. Since you have not been privy (as none of us have) to the mind of the Lord, and in all honesty, you do not understand exactly how God's sovereignty and man's responsibility works in some fashion, why not let it go. Let God be God. What possible difference of who ultimately wins the debate makes to the salvation of one soul? About as much difference as Bible versions, how long the Creation took, if and how the Rapture happens. How much time is spent making elaborate arguments for and against Calvinism, or free will, compared to how much time is spent telling others about Jesus?

Very valid point brother....thanks for posting! :thumbs:

 

[jbh28]

Not according to Calvinism. His death cannot be sufficient for "everyone" in the system of Calvinism because for the non elect Christ's death is meaningless. It has NO effect for them.

Yes, according to Calvinism. It is sufficient. It's not effective and neither is it in your system. It's not effective to those that die in unbelief. Read the Cannons of dort, it specifically states that the atonement was sufficient of all.

 

[jbh28]

God has obligated Himself because His word says that He will draw all men to Himself. God cannot lie and He always keeps His word.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Then all would be saved if all were drawn to him...read the context.

 

[jbh28]

By JBH's own definition, a choice consists of at least two POSSIBLE options. He is correct here, this is an accurate definition.

But in Calvinism it is not POSSIBLE for an unregenerate person to be willing to come to Christ. That is your doctrine. So the unregenerate, by JBH's own definition, do not have a choice of coming to Christ.

This is not difficult, perhaps it is you that does not understand your own doctrine.

Please don't misrepresent me. It's "possible" because humans have made the decision. It's "possible" because the choice is available. My inability doesn't change that. If God kept people from making the decision, then you might have a point. But that's not the case.

 

[Winman]

Please don't misrepresent me. It's "possible" because humans have made the decision. It's "possible" because the choice is available. My inability doesn't change that. If God kept people from making the decision, then you might have a point. But that's not the case.

In your view, God has determined the decision they will always make. They are like a robot that is programmed to always walk backward. You can offer the robot the choice of walking forward or backward, but the robot is hardwired by it's maker to always choose to go backward. The robot really has no choice what it will do regardless of the options you offer it.

Then you would have the maker being angry at his robot because it would only walk backward and destroying it for doing the only thing it can possibly do.

Now imagine you went to see a real robot like this and the maker wanted to give you a demonstration of it's abilities. You are told the maker hardwired it to always choose to walk backward. Now the maker commands it to go forward, but gets angry when it goes backward. What would you think of the maker? Wouldn't you think he was out of his mind? Who would you blame for the robot always choosing to walk backward, the robot, or his maker?

Silly, but this is exactly what Calvinism teaches. We are all created like robots that are hardwired to never be willing to obey God, but then God is angry at us for doing the only thing we can possibly do.

If you want to believe such nonsense, that is up to you, I will never believe that God could be such an unreasonable and unjust person as this.

 

[jbh28]

In your view, God has determined the decision they will always make. They are like a robot that is programmed to always walk backward. You can offer the robot the choice of walking forward or backward, but the robot is hardwired by it's maker to always choose to go backward. The robot really has no choice what it will do regardless of the options you offer it.

Then you would have the maker being angry at his robot because it would only walk backward and destroying it for doing the only thing it can possibly do.

Now imagine you went to see a real robot like this and the maker wanted to give you a demonstration of it's abilities. You are told the maker hardwired it to always choose to walk backward. Now the maker commands it to go forward, but gets angry when it goes backward. What would you think of the maker? Wouldn't you think he was out of his mind? Who would you blame for the robot always choosing to walk backward, the robot, or his maker?

Silly, but this is exactly what Calvinism teaches. We are all created like robots that are hardwired to never be willing to obey God, but then God is angry at us for doing the only thing we can possibly do.

If you want to believe such nonsense, that is up to you, I will never believe that God could be such an unreasonable and unjust person as this.

Now your back to the robot straw man.....If your comfortable with saying false things about your brothers in Christ....

 

[Winman]

Now your back to the robot straw man.....If your comfortable with saying false things about your brothers in Christ....

And you are back to your straw man argument to avoid addressing the issue.

How is this analogy inaccurate? Because you never call a person a robot does not make the comparison false.

 

[Amy.G]

Then all would be saved if all were drawn to him...read the context.

What did Jesus mean then? Please explain this verse.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.