God's Wisdom versus Earthly, Sensual, and Demonic Wisdom about Instrumental Music

[Scripture More Accurately]

James 3:13 Who is a wise man and endued with knowledge among you? let him shew out of a good conversation his works with meekness of wisdom. 14 But if ye have bitter envying and strife in your hearts, glory not, and lie not against the truth. 15 This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. 16 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. 17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. 18 And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

In any area of doctrine or practice, heeding earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom instead of the wisdom that descends from above makes the unity, peace, and righteousness that God wants among His people in that area impossible. What God's people believe and do in the realm of the instrumental music that they play and listen to is not an exception to this all-encompassing truth.

 

[Ben1445]

I agree that the flesh and the Devil can use many things, music included to distract and cause Christians to be fruitless by choking out the Word they have heard.
There is also something to be said for not pulling out the tares before the time. Not that that is what you are trying to do but it is something to remember.

But to say that any particular instrument only makes a sound that is demonic is to attribute too much to the realm of wickedness.
God made sound waves. The way in which they are used is the important thing to consider. It is not whether the sound comes from an approved piece of physical apparatus.
Were this the case, one would have to say that some people should not be allowed to speak. This is clearly not right.
An instrument, no matter what it is, can only make the sounds that God has enabled it to make under the laws of physics.
The expression of the instrumentalist is the only thing that can be judged. There is not going to be a pile of instruments burning in Hell for their part in this world.
Inanimate objects are not evil in and of themselves. It is all in how they are used.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

But to say that any particular instrument only makes a sound that is demonic is to attribute too much to the realm of wickedness.
God made sound waves. The way in which they are used is the important thing to consider. It is not whether the sound comes from an approved piece of physical apparatus.
Were this the case, one would have to say that some people should not be allowed to speak. This is clearly not right.
An instrument, no matter what it is, can only make the sounds that God has enabled it to make under the laws of physics.
The expression of the instrumentalist is the only thing that can be judged. There is not going to be a pile of instruments burning in Hell for their part in this world.
Inanimate objects are not evil in and of themselves. It is all in how they are used.

It is true that God made the properties of sound. You have provided no evidence for your view that "it is not whether the sound comes from an approved piece of physical apparatus." Your attempt to liken that to human speech is faulty because God makes all people, but He does not make all the musical instruments that humans make.

God created the laws of chemistry and physics about how physical materials burn. Nonetheless, Nadab and Abihu offered an unacceptable combination of aromatic materials and were incinerated by God for doing so.

It is not true that only the "expression" or intent of the person performing the act is what matters. What is offered also matters and how it is offered does as well.

Inanimate objects certainly can be evil in and of themselves. Pornographic materials are wicked regardless of whether they are viewed by anyone or not.

 

[Ben1445]

It is true that God made the properties of sound. You have provided no evidence for your view that "it is not whether the sound comes from an approved piece of physical apparatus."

You are going to have to explain what makes an individual instrument sinful.
I am not going to name every instrument and find a biblical blessing for it. That would be an outrageous expectation.

Your attempt to liken that to human speech is faulty because God makes all people, but He does not make all the musical instruments that humans make.

I said it because Jesus told some people that they were of their father the devil. By the same standard, these people should be refrained from speaking.

God created the laws of chemistry and physics about how physical materials burn. Nonetheless, Nadab and Abihu offered an unacceptable combination of aromatic materials and were incinerated by God for doing so.

It is not true that only the "expression" or intent of the person performing the act is what matters. What is offered also matters and how it is offered does as well.

As far as I can tell, nobody is offering their instruments as if it were a sacrifice.

Inanimate objects certainly can be evil in and of themselves. Pornographic materials are wicked regardless of whether they are viewed by anyone or not.

Pictures are expressions of the people who make them, whether it be by brush, film, or digital. There is an intent involved.

A proper parallel would be saying that certain brands of cameras or brushes are inherently evil.
You are comparing the tools in music to the product of imagery.
I’m 100% against pornography. But to liken a particular work of photography to a particular tool is inaccurate.
Certain brands of knives are not bad because they are used for crime.
Guns are the same issue.
How they are used is the issue.

 

[Ascetic X]

I do not know if any musical instruments are inherently evil, and Scripture More Accurately who made the claim refuses to name the evil instruments, but…

Different kinds of music can certainly open minds to spiritual effects. The Bible declares this truth.

I Samuel 16:23

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

 

[Ben1445]

I do not know if any musical instruments are inherently evil, and Scripture More Accurately who made the claim refuses to name the evil instruments, but…

Different kinds of music can certainly open minds to spiritual effects. The Bible declares this truth.

I Samuel 16:23

And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.

I also agree that the opposite of what happened to Saul is true. I believe that there is also music that has the opposite effect as it had on Saul.
But I can’t just write a blank check statement and say that any instrument is evil.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

You are going to have to explain what makes an individual instrument sinful.
I am not going to name every instrument and find a biblical blessing for it. That would be an outrageous expectation.


I said it because Jesus told some people that they were of their father the devil. By the same standard, these people should be refrained from speaking.


As far as I can tell, nobody is offering their instruments as if it were a sacrifice.


Pictures are expressions of the people who make them, whether it be by brush, film, or digital. There is an intent involved.

A proper parallel would be saying that certain brands of cameras or brushes are inherently evil.
You are comparing the tools in music to the product of imagery.
I’m 100% against pornography. But to liken a particular work of photography to a particular tool is inaccurate.
Certain brands of knives are not bad because they are used for crime.
Guns are the same issue.
How they are used is the issue.

Actually, no, it is not possible for ordinary humans to explain specifically and exhaustively what makes certain musical instruments sinful beyond saying that those musical instruments that have been made with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom are evil instruments. No human who does not have supernatural knowledge that humans cannot have apart from either divine revelation or involvement in wicked occult activities can explain to you in any detail how and why demonic things are demonic.

What Jesus said about people being of their father the devil still does not mean that the devil made them. God made them. God did not make the evil instruments that evil humans have made.

Whether people are offering their instruments as sacrifices is not the point; evil humans can and have made evil musical instruments made from combining materials, just as Nadab and Abihu made a combination of aromatic materials that were unacceptable to God for any use in worship.

Saying that there is evil intent in the making of pornographic materials is true. Saying that does not change the truth that once those evil objects have been made, they are objects that are in and of themselves evil.

You are asserting that no "tool" can be inherently evil. You have to prove that from Scripture--merely asserting it does not make it so.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I also agree that the opposite of what happened to Saul is true. I believe that there is also music that has the opposite effect as it had on Saul.
But I can’t just write a blank check statement and say that any instrument is evil.

Who has written "a blank check statement" that says "that any [in the sense of every] instrument is evil"? I certainly have not made any such statements.

 

[Ben1445]

Is there earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about instrumental music?​

Yes, it exists. But that doesn’t mean that all wisdom about instrumental music is earthly, sensual, or demonic.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Is there earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom about instrumental music?​

Yes, it exists. But that doesn’t mean that all wisdom about instrumental music is earthly, sensual, or demonic.

I fully agree that not all wisdom about instrumental music is earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom and have never said otherwise.

 

[Ben1445]

Actually, no, it is not possible for ordinary humans to explain specifically and exhaustively what makes certain musical instruments sinful beyond saying that those musical instruments that have been made with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom are evil instruments. No human who does not have supernatural knowledge that humans cannot have apart from either divine revelation or involvement in wicked occult activities can explain to you how and why demonic things are demonic.

What Jesus said about people being of their father the devil still does not mean that the devil made them. God made them. God did not make the evil instruments that evil humans have made.

Whether people are offering their instruments as sacrifices is not the point; evil humans can and have made evil instrumental musical entities made from combining materials, just as Nadab and Abihu made a combination of aromatic materials that were unacceptable to God for any use in worship.

Saying that there is evil intent in the making of pornographic materials is true. Saying that does not change the truth that once those evil objects have been made, they are objects that are in and of themselves evil.

You are asserting that no "tool" can be inherently evil. You have to prove that from Scripture--merely asserting it does not make it so.

There is nothing unclean of itself.

Name me one thing that will be judged because of its sinful physical constitution.

It may come as a surprise to you but there are legitimate and non pornographic uses of images that would be considered that in the possession of the wrong person.
Medical imaging is not sinful.
I have heard of cases where parents have saved their children from abusive child protective services programs by taking pictures of their children before they were removed from their home. When the case came to court the parents were able to show that the bruises were caused by the system and not from the home they were removed from.

Life is not as cut and dried as you might think it is.

 

[Ben1445]

Who has written "a blank check statement" that says "that any [in the sense of every] instrument is evil"? I certainly have not made any such statements.

I meant any as in any in particular. Please don’t change what I said.

 

[Ben1445]

You are asserting that no "tool" can be inherently evil. You have to prove that from Scripture--merely asserting it does not make it so.

You are asserting that an inanimate object can be evil. Show us in Scripture that physical objects can be evil solely by their existence without being used.
As you say, merely asserting it does not make it so.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

I meant any as in any in particular. Please don’t change what I said.

I did not change what you said. It was unclear to me what was meant by your statement, so I explained what I am talking about with my parenthetical insertion.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

There is nothing unclean of itself.

Name me one thing that will be judged because of its sinful physical constitution.

It may come as a surprise to you but there are legitimate and non pornographic uses of images that would be considered that in the possession of the wrong person.
Medical imaging is not sinful.
I have heard of cases where parents have saved their children from abusive child protective services programs by taking pictures of their children before they were removed from their home. When the case came to court the parents were able to show that the bruises were caused by the system and not from the home they were removed from.

Life is not as cut and dried as you might think it is.

I do not believe what you believe about nothing being unclean of itself. What Paul says in Romans 14 does not establish what you believe. Scripture has more to say about that matter than just what is in Romans 14 and what Romans 14 says is in a specific context and limited to what is under discussion in that passage.

I am well-aware of the attempts that people make to try to say that not all pornographic images, etc. are illegitimate. I do not buy those attempts.

For the sake of not getting too explicit, I am not going to specify further what kinds of pornographic images do not have any legitimate uses whatever.

 

[Ben1445]

I do not believe what you believe about nothing being unclean of itself. What Paul says in Romans 14 does not establish what you believe. Scripture has more to say about that matter than just what is in Romans 14 and what Romans 14 says is in a specific context and limited to what is under discussion in that passage.

I am well aware of the attempts that people make to try to say that not all pornographic images, etc. are illegitimate. I do not buy those attempts.

For the sake of not getting too explicit, I am not going to specify further what kinds of pornographic images do not have any legitimate uses whatever.

Inanimate objects have no volition. They cannot err because they cannot do anything.

If you see one of these (yet unidentified) evil instruments, have you sinned?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Inanimate objects have no volition. They cannot err because they cannot do anything.

If you see one of these (yet unidentified) evil instruments, have you sinned?

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It is irrelevant that they do not have volition; that is not the point.

Sinful humans can and have taken materials that God never intended to be used in the ways that they have been used in the making of certain occult musical instruments. Those occult musical instruments are wicked entities not because they are doing anything of themselves; they are wicked entities with which the righteous must not have anything to do ("touch not the unclean thing" [2 Cor. 6:17]).

 

[DaveXR650]

"Zappa celebrated the tone of a “good ol’ distorted electric guitar,” calling it a “universe of sound that transcends the actual noise that is coming out. It just says something that no other instrument says. It has emotional content that goes beyond other instruments. And nothing is more blasphemous than a properly played distorted guitar. It is capable of making blasphemous noises.”

The avant-garde rocker went on to describe guitar tones as “extremely evil-sounding” and “smutty,” adding that he believed the best guitar playing matched speech patterns, not scales. “If you listen to a guy playing nice, neat scale patterns and things like that, no matter how skillful he is in making his stuff land on the beat, you always hear it as music. Capital ‘M’ music. If you want to get beyond music into emotional content, you have to break through that and just talk on your instrument.”

I get a kick out of some Christians who show animosity towards a fundamentalist who dares to criticize rock music when in fact the smart guys who produced it agree and brag that they know exactly what they are doing. The above is from Frank Zappa. If you want to read some other informative stuff on this just read Alan Bloom from "The Closing of the American Mind". Although coming from the opposite direction from Bloom, and from @Scripture More Accurately, Zappa agreed that rock music had a specific sound, a sound designed to communicate something, often evil, and that it had a powerful ability to influence the mind.

As Christians we tend to be naive and we shouldn't feel bad about that. I remember reading where someone was laughing at Christians at a wedding celebration all singing "YMCA", not realizing at all what they were singing about. My only point is that we do the best we can and try to use some discernment balanced with tolerance for other people's backgrounds and preferences. But I just notice that we seem quick nowadays to rip into a fundamentalist for not being tolerant of other music but don't seem to sense any need to be tolerant of the fundamentalist who has a different view. But that's the way "tolerance" works nowadays I guess.

 

[Ascetic X]

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It is irrelevant that they do not have volition; that is not the point.

Sinful humans can and have taken materials that God never intended to be used in the ways that they have been used in the making of certain occult musical instruments. Those occult musical instruments are wicked entities not because they are doing anything of themselves; they are wicked entities with which the righteous must not have anything to do ("touch not the unclean thing" [2 Cor. 6:17]).

You are just blabbering and jacking people around.

You keep evading the question about which musical instruments are occult or evil. You must derive pleasure from being vague and repeating yourself over and over, imparting zero insights or wisdom, just baiting people to interact with you.

Your absurd, non-informative statements include: “it is not possible for ordinary humans to explain specifically and exhaustively what makes certain musical instruments sinful beyond saying that those musical instruments that have been made with earthly, sensual, and demonic wisdom are evil instruments. No human who does not have supernatural knowledge that humans cannot have apart from either divine revelation or involvement in wicked occult activities can explain to you in any detail how and why demonic things are demonic.”

Since you refuse to name a single “evil occult demonic musical instruments”, you obviously don’t know what you’re talking about. I bet you think a kazoo, banjo, saxophone, or thumb piano is in this category.

How long will you play this game?

 

[Ben1445]

You are misunderstanding what I am getting at. It is irrelevant that they do not have volition; that is not the point.

Sinful humans can and have taken materials that God never intended to be used in the ways that they have been used in the making of certain occult musical instruments. Those occult musical instruments are wicked entities not because they are doing anything of themselves; they are wicked entities with which the righteous must not have anything to do ("touch not the unclean thing" [2 Cor. 6:17]).

Romans 14:14
I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

But again, the unclean thing is unclean because of its use. There were images in the temple. Why was that okay? There were ornate works in the temple. There are religious groups that think that copying anything is making an image of something and is sinful. So all cameras would be used for wicked purposes. Missionary prayer cards would be sinful to use. We would be in lots of trouble.

There are absolutely things that I don’t and won’t own because of how other people use them. But that doesn’t mean I would be sinful if I ever saw, touched, heard, or even owned one.
Suppose you inherited an estate that had one of these things. Do you superstitiously never touch it? Or does “touch not” mean something more than “the outside of the cup?” Should we not be concerned with the inside?