God's word [and] Dispensationalism

[Covenanter]

So, I can't find fault with anyone rejecting dispensationalism because of the checkered past and overreaching doctrine of some of the individuals promotion thereof.

My own "dispensationalism" is largely redacted from the historical brand of Scofield, Dallas, etc.

However the one thing that greatly puzzles me would be the MYRIADS of unkept promises God has given to the nation of Israel if the distinction between Israel and the church is discarded.
.

HankD

Please give some examples of those unkept promises.

Were they given to the NATION of Israel or the PEOPLE of Israel?

Surely EVERY Israelite, every Jew, who comes to God in repentance & faith receives the promises. The fact that the scope of the promises includes the Church - all families on earth - in now way means God's promises to Israel are not being kept.

Isaiah 49:5 And now the Lord says –
he who formed me in the womb to be his servant
to bring Jacob back to him
and gather Israel to himself,
for I am honoured in the eyes of the Lord
and my God has been my strength –
6 he says:
‘It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.’
and my God has been my strength –
6 he says:
‘It is too small a thing for you to be my servant
to restore the tribes of Jacob
and bring back those of Israel I have kept.
I will also make you a light for the Gentiles,
that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.’​

 

[HankD]

Please give some examples of those unkept promises.

Were they given to the NATION of Israel or the PEOPLE of Israel?

Surely EVERY Israelite, every Jew, who comes to God in repentance & faith receives the promises. The fact that the scope of the promises includes the Church - all families on earth - in now way means God's promises to Israel are not being kept.

OK let me be more clear on this brother - I should have said that God has made many promises to Israel that remain to be fulfilled.

Zechariah 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

No. The Lord Jesus tells us specifically that He has bound the strong man to plunder his house, and Rev 20 tells us that Satan is bound so that he can deceive the nations no more. We have to take the two statements together to get at the truth (maybe also add Revelation 6:2). To go further than that is to go further than the Scriptures and we wouldn't want to do that, would we?

When do you see though the time when there shall be no wars/diseases/famines, and that all nations worship Jesus as Lord though?

 

[Yeshua1]

So, I can't find fault with anyone rejecting dispensationalism because of the checkered past and overreaching doctrine of some of the individuals promotion thereof.

My own "dispensationalism" is largely redacted from the historical brand of Scofield, Dallas, etc.

However the one thing that greatly puzzles me would be the MYRIADS of unkept promises God has given to the nation of Israel if the distinction between Israel and the church is discarded.
.

HankD

Paul cannot mean that Israel is now the Church, as Romans 11 seems to indicate both are in the plan of God!

 

[Revmitchell]

Paul cannot mean that Israel is now the Church, as Romans 11 seems to indicate both are in the plan of God!

that's right:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (in other words the church)

 

[HankD]

that's right:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (in other words the church)

And I have referenced that verse several times over the years here at the BB.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

that's right:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (in other words the church)

Yes, for to get to full Church replacement viewpoint, one has to see God totally rejecting the Jewish peoples, but paul makes it quite clear that God is not forever casting away them, for their temp rejection God used to bring salvation to us gentiles itself!

 

[Covenanter]

that's right:

Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. (in other words the church)

And I have referenced that verse several times over the years here at the BB.

HankD

What prophecy concerning the nation of Israel follows the fullness of the Gentiles & is it the same as the times of the Gentiles? There could a lot of serious discussion.

Note that there is no mention in Rom. 11 of the nation of Israel. The chapter begins - I say then, has God cast away His people?

That's why I asked:

Please give some examples of those unkept promises.

Were they given to the NATION of Israel or the PEOPLE of Israel?

Surely EVERY Israelite, every Jew, who comes to God in repentance & faith receives the promises. The fact that the scope of the promises includes the Church - all families on earth - in no way means God's promises to Israel are not being kept.
(typo corrected)

Not every promise to Israel was a promise of blessing of the nation; some amounted to very serious warnings. Peter preaches in Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.​

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

You might like to read this thread.​

My contributions start on Page 2 #30

 

[HankD]

What prophecy concerning the nation of Israel follows the fullness of the Gentiles & is it the same as the times of the Gentiles? There could a lot of serious discussion.

Note that there is no mention in Rom. 11 of the nation of Israel. The chapter begins - I say then, has God cast away His people?

That's why I asked:

Not every promise to Israel was a promise of blessing of the nation; some amounted to very serious warnings. Peter preaches in Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.​

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

You might like to read this thread.​

Covenanter you strain away at the details of some passages (Luke 21:24;Romans 15:25) but gloss over Zechariah 14 completely.

Zechariah 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When did this happen in Jesus ministry!?

HankD​

 

[percho]

What prophecy concerning the nation of Israel follows the fullness of the Gentiles & is it the same as the times of the Gentiles? There could a lot of serious discussion.

Note that there is no mention in Rom. 11 of the nation of Israel. The chapter begins - I say then, has God cast away His people?

That's why I asked:

Not every promise to Israel was a promise of blessing of the nation; some amounted to very serious warnings. Peter preaches in Acts 3:

22 For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you. 23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.​

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

You might like to read this thread.​

My contributions start on Page 2 #30

Amen!


I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. From Rom 11:1,2

Amos 3:1,2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.


For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. Rom 11:25

What is this? The fulness of the Gentiles? The church? The times of the Gentiles? Is it? I will punish you for all your iniquities.

Does it have anything to do with?
Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure. Because Ephraim hath made many altars to sin, altars shall be unto him to sin. I have written to him the great things of my law, but they were counted as a strange thing. They sacrifice flesh for the sacrifices of mine offerings, and eat it; but the LORD accepteth them not; now will he remember their iniquity, and visit their sins: they shall return to Egypt. From Hosea 8
And if ye will not yet for all this hearken unto me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins. Lev 26:18
And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ LXX ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν
Will be among fulness of Gentiles Gen 48:19

BTW I am only asking, I have nothing, chiseled in stone.

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter you strain away at the details of some passages (Luke 21:24;Romans 15:25) but gloss over Zechariah 14 completely.

Zechariah 14
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

When did this happen in Jesus ministry!?

HankD​

You obviously did not read my postings in the Zechariah 14 thread - I gave the link in the post you replied to - #68

 

[HankD]

You obviously did not read my postings in the Zechariah 14 thread - I gave the link in the post you replied to - #68

Refresh my memory please with your own words.

Thanks
HankD

 

[Covenanter]

Refresh my memory please with your own words.

Thanks
HankD

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

You might like to read this thread. ​

My contributions start on Page 2 #30

 

[HankD]

Zec. 14 comes at the end of a book of prophecies directly relating to Jesus & his ministry, particularly his last week.

You might like to read this thread. ​

My contributions start on Page 2 #30

Covenanter IMO You glossed over the passage I asked you to consider

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is all i could find concerning the given passage.

Verses 3-5 describe the LORD's presence & activity during the siege; the mount of Olives being split to allow the believers to flee. Thus the Lord my God will come, And all the saints with You.

There is no need to interpret this as the second coming/return of the Lord but as his presence with his people, protecting them from the great tribulation. I am with you always.

It seems you have spiritualized this portion of scripture.

I take it as a fulfillment of prophecy:

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives.

HankD

 

[David Kent]

Satan cannot be bound until the rightful King takes His throne here on earth!

Then no one can be saved?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Then no one can be saved?

David, how do you figure that? Are you looking at salvation as being those who no longer sin?

 

[Covenanter]

Covenanter IMO You glossed over the passage I asked you to consider

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is all i could find concerning the given passage.

It seems you have spiritualized this portion of scripture.

I take it as a fulfillment of prophecy:

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives.

HankD

I'll reply in the Zechariah 14 thread.

 

[David Kent]

David, how do you figure that? Are you looking at salvation as being those who no longer sin?

• 
  Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
• Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus must have bound the strong man, the king of this world, to enter his house.

 

[David Kent]

Covenanter IMO You glossed over the passage I asked you to consider

3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

This is all i could find concerning the given passage.


It seems you have spiritualized this portion of scripture.

I take it as a fulfillment of prophecy:

Acts 1
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey.

The promised visible literal bodily return of Jesus Christ to the place of His ascension - the Mount of Olives.

HankD

And is that the coming with his saints or another coming?

 

[Yeshua1]

• 
  Matthew 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
• Mark 3:27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.

Jesus must have bound the strong man, the king of this world, to enter his house.

Jesus bound satan in the sense that thru His death and resurrection, sinners are now saved, but there is still permitted satan to rage on this world, see las vegas!