God's Word to the Calvinist

[rockytopva]

I believe the message to the seven churches in Revelation was Christs way of addressing the issues that were to befall the churches in time. And Calvin existed in Sardisean times....

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:4

Which was, I believe, Christs way of addressing the issues of eternal security..

 

[rockytopva]

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22

I believe a full salvation is granted to those who finish well the race set before them.

 

[rockytopva]

How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? - Hebrews 2:3-4

I believe we pick experiences up along the way....

1. Salvation- simply believeing on the Lord Jesus Christ
2. Sanctification- Bible reading and learning you get along the way, which should purify the experience.
3. Infilling of the Holy Ghost- Reasonable fruits (Love, joy, peace, gentleness, etc), ministry callings, with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will.

 

[rockytopva]

Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy. - Revelation 3:4

Did John Calvin defile his garments in toasting Michael Servetus?

"Neither God nor his Spirit have counselled such an action. Christ did not treat those who negated him that way."- Italian poet Camillo Renato on the Servetus execution

"To kill a man is not to protect a doctrine, but it is to kill a man." - French humanist Sébastien Chateillon on the Servetus execution

"I consider it a serious matter to kill men because they are in error on some question of scriptural interpretation, when we know that even the elect ones may be led astray into error; - Michael Servetus

In 1908 a monument to Servetus was erected in the French city of Annemasse, some three miles [5 km] from the spot where he died. An inscription reads: "Michel Servetus, . . . geographer, physician, physiologist, contributed to the welfare of humanity by his scientific discoveries, his devotion to the sick and the poor, and the indomitable independence of his intelligence and his conscience. . . . His convictions were invincible. He made a sacrifice of his life for the cause of the truth."

And to try to bail himself out of hot water Calvin says... "Whoever shall maintain that wrong is done to heretics and blasphemers in punishing them makes himself an accomplice in their crime and guilty as they are. There is no question here of man's authority; it is God who speaks, and clear it is what law he will have kept in the church, even to the end of the world. Wherefore does he demand of us a so extreme severity, if not to show us that due honor is not paid him, so long as we set not his service above every human consideration, so that we spare not kin, nor blood of any, and forget all humanity when the matter is to combat for His glory."

It seemed like Calvin himself would pay for such criminal deeds as his health receded in his fifties.

Fatally ill, and with blood flowing from his mouth, the 54 year-old pastor-theologian was carried to Saint Pierre in a chair. He was a man acquainted with pain. He suffered from terrible hemorrhoids, asthma, kidney stones, pulmonary tuberculosis, and gout. Fever was a consistent companion, and now he had ruptured blood vessels in his lungs due to his violent coughing spells. This same month he wrote of his tribulations to the doctors of Montpellier:

"But at that time [20 years ago] I was not attacked by gout, knew nothing of the stone or the gravel, was not tormented with the gripings of colic nor afflicted with piles nor threatened with haemorrhages. At present all these enemies charge me like troops. As soon as I recovered from a quartan fever, I was taken with severe and acute pains in my calves, which, after being partly relieved, returned a second and then third time. At last they turned into a disease of the joints, which spread from my feet to my knees. An ulcer in the haemorrhoid veins long tortured me ..." - John Calvin

I think Calvin messed up big time in having Servetus executed. Possibly even to the extent to his immortal soul.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe Calvinist are a saved people, are part of the church, and have even enjoyed the teachings of John MacArthur, especially his teachings on the rapture...

 

[Barry Johnson]

And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. - Matthew 10:22

I believe a full salvation is granted to those who finish well the race set before them.

This verse is about physical death , during the Tribulation.' Endurance ' especially ' enduring to the end ' ( if this meant ' to be saved from the penalty of sin , from conversion till death) this would be works salvation. Thats how the cults use this verse .

 

[Dave G]

I think Calvin messed up big time in having Servetus executed. Possibly even to the extent to his immortal soul.

A comment if I may:

This makes perhaps the 3rd time in my short time here that I have seen the subject of Michael Servetus come up when discussing the doctrines of God's word...
As if his death should firmly establish that anything that John Calvin ( and anyone before him including William Tyndale ) may have said about the Bible was somehow negated by his apparent involvement in it.

Question:

What of the "Molinist" ( basically the same as "Wesleyan" in its teachings of salvation ) Roman Catholic Church and its supporters' execution of literally thousands ( including "Calvinists" ) during the religious wars of the "Protestant Reformation" during its own "counter-reformation"?

These included ( but were not limited to ) William Tyndale's strangling and burning at the stake by supporters of Catholic Emperor Charles V in 1536 for translating the Bible into English,
Catholic Queen Mary I of England's burning of over 200 "Protestants" at the stake during her reign 1553 to 1558,
and the single worst was the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of 1572 in which some 2,000 to 70,000 French "Huguenots" ( "Calvinists" ) were killed by Catholic mob violence, mainly in Paris, but extended throughout France.

A second question:

Why does Michael Servetus' death get seemingly front-page coverage on this forum, while the thousands killed by the prominent religious institutions of the day during his lifetime, far exceed what was ever done in Geneva?

Is there a particular reason that John Calvin and Michael Servetus keep being mentioned, but Rome and the European kings and queens of the time do not?


What I mean to say, is that if people continue to bring up Micheal Servetus, shouldn't we be talking about the deaths on both sides, and how terrible ( and unbiblical ) religious persecution ( both then and now ), really is?

 

[rockytopva]

The purpose of Revelation was to reveal what was going to come to pass....

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.... - Revelation 1:1

Which all of this was to heavy for just ordinary churches in Asia that did not amount to anything....

The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; - Revelation 1:20 - Revelation 2:1

Ephesus - Messianic - Beginning with the Apostle to the Circumcision, Peter
Smyrna - Martyr - Beginning with the Apostle to the Un-Circumcision, Paul
Pergamos - Orthodoxy formed in this time... Pergos is a tower... Needed in the dark ages
Thyatira - Catholicism formed in this time - The spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate.
Sardis - Protestantism formed in this time- A sardius is a gem - elegant yet hard and rigid
Philadelphia - Wesleyism formed in this time - To be sanctioned is to acquire it with love.
Laodicea - Charismatic movement formed in this time - Beginning with DL Moody, the first to make money off of ministry

Candlesticks - Seven church congregations
Stars - Individuals within the congregations, all held in the right hand of Christ
Seals - The seven seals sealed each congregation within the lambs book of life

And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. - Revelation 5:4

If this interpretation is not correct why all the ado?

Baptist - I believe the Baptist church is part of the Christian church that was born in Sardis, and influenced in Philadelphian and Laodicean times. Jerry Falwell Jr is an example of the Baptist Laodicean Christian, thankfully, though, not all are that way.

 

[rockytopva]

A comment if I may:

This makes perhaps the 3rd time in my short time here that I have seen the subject of Michael Servetus come up when discussing the doctrines of God's word...
As if his death should firmly establish that anything that John Calvin may have said about the Bible was somehow negated by his apparent involvement in it.

Question:

What of the "Molinist" ( basically the same as "Wesleyan" in its teachings of salvation ) Roman Catholic Church and its supporters' execution of literally thousands ( including "Calvinists" ) during the religious wars of the "Protestant Reformation" during its own "counter-reformation"?

These included ( but were not limited to ) William Tyndale's strangling and burning at the stake by supporters of Catholic Emperor Charles V in 1536 for translating the Bible into English,
Catholic Queen Mary I of England's commandments to burn over 200 "Protestants" at the stake during her reign 1553 to 1558,
and the single worst was the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre of 1572 in which some 2,000 to 70,000 French "Huguenots" ( "Calvinists" ) were killed by Catholic mob violence...
Mainly in Paris, but extended throughout France.

A second question:

Why does Michael Servetus' death get seemingly front-page coverage on this forum, while the thousands killed by the prominent religious institutions of the day during his lifetime, far exceed what was ever done in Geneva?

Is there a particular reason that John Calvin and Michael Servetus keeps being mentioned, but Rome does not?
What I mean to say, is that if people continue to bring up Micheal Servetus, shouldn't we be talking about the deaths on both sides, and how terrible ( and unbiblical ) religious persecution ( both then and now ), really is?

I believe the church of Rome came to life in Thyatirean times, and the Spirit of Jezebel was to control and to dominate. As Jezebel killed many of the saints so did the Catholic church in her time.

 

[Dave G]

I believe the church of Rome came to life in Thyatirean times, and the Spirit of Jezebel was to control and to dominate. As Jezebel killed many of the saints so did the Catholic church in her time.

I agree with the highlighted.
But what does the death of Michael Servetus have to do with the biblical doctrine of salvation and what the Scriptures say about it?

 

[rockytopva]

Perhaps.
But what does the death of Michael Servetus have to do with the biblical doctrine of salvation and what the Scriptures say about it?

The biblical doctrine of Salvation...

The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. - Romans 10:8-9

And the Apostle Paul said....

1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. - 1 Corinthians 2:1-5

But.... In Sardisean times both Martin Luther and John Calvin would hate folks for not going along with them...

"That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. ... Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine ... For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? ... Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches ... and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound ... to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders ... Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then ... we conclude that ... the stubborn sectaries must be put to death." -Martin Luther

"My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it. The rulers must act like a good physician who, when gangrene has set in proceeds without mercy to cut, saw, and burn flesh, veins, bone, and marrow. Such a procedure must also be followed in this instance. Burn down their synagogues, forbid all that I enumerated earlier, force them to work, and deal harshly with them. If this does not help we must drive them out like mad dogs." - Martin Luther from the book "On the Jews and their Lies"

 

[Dave G]

The biblical doctrine of Salvation...

But.... In Sardisean times both Martin Luther and John Calvin would hate folks for not going along with them...

I don't see an answer to my question here, so I'll state it again:

But what does the death of Michael Servetus have to do with the biblical doctrine of salvation and what the Scriptures say about it?

 

[rockytopva]

I don't see an answer to my question here, so I'll state it again:

John Calvin was also unkind to the Anabaptists.... Do you also go along with that?

"In these days an Anabaptist, when he was laying out foolish writings publicly for sale, was at my instigation arrested. You of course know the nature of these people from experience. But I have never been aware of such wild defiance before. Although I first addressed him politely, as is my custom, it did not suit him for a moment to talk otherwise with me than if he were dealing with a dog. When they led him to the city hall, he at once wanted to sit beside the first syndic; when he was turned away from there, he gave himself with raised head and rolling eyes the majestic aspect of a prophet and answered if it suited him with a few words the questions directed to him; frequently he was altogether silent. A dispute then arose between us on swearing. When I asked him if the law of the Lord did not give us directions for living, he uttered the horrible dogma of the Anabaptists: The Old Testament is done away! I quoted the words of Paul. All Scripture is profitable, that the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works (2 Timothy 3:16, 17). I insisted that he answer; but not a word could I get out of him. Therefore I now explained this entire question, so that everyone might recognize the invincible ignorance of this man together with his equally great impudence. When he saw himself thus pushed, he uttered the usual frivolous phrase of the sectarians, that no man has a more comfortable life than the parsons. I answered with a few words, not so much to defend our class as to ward off the boldness of this beast. Then he called me covetous. This produced general laughter; for all knew that I had just this year refused a large personal salary and indeed so seriously that I assured them under oath that I would not preach another sermon if they did not leave off. They knew too that I had not only refused such extraordinary generosity, but had even returned some of my regular salary, not less than 20 crowns. And so he was attacked by all with abusive terms. I answered modestly, he would probably be rich in my position; it was no sign of avarice if I am poor with all the opportunity of becoming rich; but he could be accused by me on a matter of life and death, namely of theft; if he denied it I would offer my head for punishment for slander if it were not true. For it was certain that he was selling broadsheets for two and a half sous which had cost him four deniers. And it was not due to a fixed tax that he sold them so dearly. When he was silent as usual I began to talk about the sinlessness of the Anabaptists. When he had sufficiently shown his defiance, he was expelled from the city. Two days later, when he was again seized in the city, he was beaten, his books publicly burned, and he himself was told not to come again, on penalty of the gallows. This is a man or rather a beast of desperate wickedness." - John Calvin

 

[Dave G]

John Calvin was also unkind to the Anabaptists.... Do you also go along with that?

Of course not.
I don't condone religious persecution of any kind, sir, and I definitely don't condone what happened to Michael Servetus.

But again:

I don't see an answer to my question here, so I'll state it again:

What does the death of Michael Servetus have to do with the biblical doctrine of salvation and what the Scriptures say about it?
In addition, what do the persecutions and deaths of thousands during the Protestant Reformation ( mainly on the Roman Catholic side of things ), have to do with the biblical doctrine of election?

 

[rockytopva]

Of course not.
But again:

But what does the death of Michael Servetus have to do with the biblical doctrine of salvation and what the Scriptures say about it?
Further, what do the deaths of thousands, mainly on the Roman Catholic side of things, have to do with the biblical doctrine of election?

Calvin also wrote a book called, "Calvin’s Treatises Against the Anabaptists and the Libertines" which I havent read. All of this to point that Calvin was not at all a kindhearted man. Yes... There were times he was correct, but not in the dealings of his enemies.

 

[Dave G]

Calvin also wrote a book called, "Calvin’s Treatises Against the Anabaptists and the Libertines" which I havent read. All of this to point that Calvin was not at all a kindhearted man. Yes... There were times he was correct, but not in the dealings of his enemies.

Rome convened the Council of Trent which ended in 1563.

In its Sixth Session, "On Justification", it cursed anything remotely resembling "Calvinism".
Then on St. Bartholomew's Day in 1572, the greatest single massacre of "Protestants" in France was carried out.
Those that were killed across France are now referred to as "Calvinists", when at the time, they were called "Huguenots".

Do you go along with that, sir?

 

[rockytopva]

I consider my church Philadelphian, in which the word says....

Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out.... - Revelation 3:12

If someone were to accuse me by saying, "But.... Rocky.... Your movement is no longer in revival...." I would have to bow my head and sorrow.

 

[rockytopva]

Rome convened the Council of Trent which ended in 1563.

In its Sixth Session, "On Justification", it cursed anything remotely resembling "Calvinism".
Then on St. Bartholomew's Day in 1572, the greatest single massacre of "Protestants" in France was carried out.
Those that were killed across France are now referred to as "Calvinists", when at the time, they were called "Huguenots".

Do you go along with that, sir?

I probably would have elected to be an Anabaptist and would have been persecuted as well. I do not regard the persecution of the Huguenots as a good thing and would speak harsher words towards the Catholic church for allowing it.

 

[Dave G]

I probably would have elected to be an Anabaptist and would have been persecuted as well. I do not regard the persecution of the Huguenots as a good thing and would speak harsher words towards the Catholic church for allowing it.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Please consider that, doctrines aside, there were far more persecutions and deaths on one side during that terrible time, than there were the other.
Regardless, God's word nowhere teaches that believers are to persecute or kill anyone for disagreeing with them over any doctrine.

Rather, it clearly says this:

" A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." ( Titus 3:10-11 ).

 

[rockytopva]

Thank you for clarifying that.

Please consider that, doctrines aside, there were far more persecutions and deaths on one side during that terrible time, than there were the other.
Regardless, God's word nowhere teaches that believers are to persecute or kill anyone for disagreeing with them over any doctrine.

Rather, it clearly says this:

" A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject;
11 knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself." ( Titus 3:10-11 ).

At least we are having dialog. In Europe disagreements were not discussed rather warred against. My favorite author of the time was John Bunyan, who spent many years in prison for going against the state church.