I agree and disagree (depending on context).
I believe that Scripture can be complex, but at the same time we have a tendency to make it more complex (in ways) than it is.
We do use extra-biblical methods and understandings when we interpret, study, or even casually read our Bibles (a human limitation). And to study Scripture we need to understand the 1st century audience, idioms, symbolism, practices, etc. Add to this that we are talking about studying translations of an ancient text(s).
Another point that I would make is that when we read the Bible and form our understandings we need to make sure that we are not forming an understanding in isolation. Scripture has been around for a couple thousand years. Obviously there are new applications, but a new interpretation is a danger sign.
Yes...your new interpretations are a red flag. Denying that men like John Murray and pastor martin have not studied all the things listed is not a solid charge is it?
At the same time I believe that we have to be very careful not to stray from "what is written" when it comes to basic or foundational doctrines (especially doctrines upon which other doctrines are built).
That is why we have the once for all time faith delivered on the pages of scripture, and expounded by men throughout church history, especially after the invention of the printing press.
I do not believe God gave us Scripture then enabled a few men to understand these foundational doctrines so they can teach others.
Yet, that is exactly what we see in the book of Acts and explained in Eph.4:
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
One major problem with developing doctrines (again, foundational doctrines) thar are not actually in the text of Scripture us they cannot be tested.
The doctrines of grace are solidly in scripture and were foundational to all the local churches.
Many test what they believe the Bible teaches against what they believe is taught by the Bible
That is what you seem to do.
Many simply accept what men they agree with tell them.
or, they see it in scripture, and check with trusted guides to see if they saw the same things.
I learned this quickly speaking with Roman Catholics about certain doctrines. They believe the Bible as interpreted or explained by their church leaders.
That is why the reformation was used by God to set things right.
I have had Mormon and Jehovah Witness friends who did the same. They give you a list of scholars (and these are scholars, very intelligent and intellectual people) abd ask how dare we disagree with those experts.
I have never seen them do that. Any they follow do not confess the same Jesus.
Interpretations will always differ among Christians this side of the grave. But these should be interpretations of the Biblical text when it comes to foundational doctrines and not somebody expounding on what is written.
God has set up Pastors to expound scripture, to give the sense.
Here is my basic rule when it comes to discussing foundational doctrines and differences:
1. Make sure the doctrine is actually in God's Word.
The doctrines of grace are.
2. Provide the verses stating the doctrine.
many times it is a combination of verses, like to see the trinity for example.
3. Never add to God's Word to make it fit your presuppositions
we do not have to. We just need to properly understand what has been taught in scripture.
4. Discuss how you interpret those verses.
That is what this thread is for.
5.. Listen as the other person does the same.
we consider what is being offered.
6. Explain how and why you interpreted the passage as you did.
these men did just that in the other thread, of which no one refuted any of the material.
7. Listen as the other does the same.
8. Ignore any claim that is not an actual interpretation of the Biblical text.
that was the challenge that was offered, and no one accepted the challenge
9. Make sure both sides understand the opposing interpretation.
Yes, without questioning if the person knows English.
10. Agree to disagree about different interpretations of the actual text.
There are good books out there that help Christians learn to read Scripture. One of my favorites is Gradping God's Word by Duvall and Hays.
There are many good helps
Ahhhh.....you carried this over from our discussion.
You also missed my point.
When I asked you for passages that you believe proved your view you gave me paragraph after paragraph of the writings of people that you agreed with.
Having seen these truths in scripture, I always will check my conclusion with men who have a greater gift and knowledge. It is nice when we agree ,yes. Often I receive correction from them also. I do not lean on my own understanding as you and others seem to prefer most of the time.
You misunderstood my request. I was asking for Scripture so that we can see where we interpret the verses differently.
As I said, the links shared over 54 verses, and you have not shown any of them to mean something different. If you directly quoted and offered on the links directly, I did not see it, sorry if I missed any such attempt on your part. I think I asked you to do that 4 or 5 times!
For example - I believe that God will forgive the sinner when he or she repents (turns from a mind set on the flesh to a mind set on the Spirit, from wickedness to God).
Yes, but it helps to explain what enables such a turn from darkness to light. Are you saying a sinner can jsu do that on His own? I see that God must enable any sinner to do that. They are commanded to do it, but only God can enable them
These are a few of the verses that I believe supports my position:
Let the wicked abandon his way,
And the unrighteous person his thoughts;
And let him return to the Lord,
And He will have compassion on him,
And to our God,
For He will abundantly pardon. (Isaiah 55)
But if the wicked person turns from all his sins which he has committed and keeps all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall certainly live; he shall not die. 22 All his offenses which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord God, “[k]rather than that he would turn from his ways and live? (Ezekiel 18)
Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins,(Acts 2)
If my people who are called by my name humble themselves, and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sin and heal their land.(2 Chronicles 7)
Good verses, and I see that God grants such a repentance to life Acts 11:18
There are more, but this is just an example. I can be wrong, BUT it would be a misinterpretation of "what is written" rather than an addition to Scripture.
If I were to just make a claim, like Jesus experienced God's wrath instead of us, I would need to "show my work". I need to first provide the passage and then explain how I interpreted it. Otherwise its just extra-biblical theory.
page after page was provided on the other thread, but you did not really address those texts.
The readon this is important is we will not agree on which preachers teach correctly. BUT as Christians we should have God's Word in common.
Yes, we should. Thanks for this post and input.
