Gold dust and oily hands...

[xdisciplex]

Okay, Amy then answer me these questions:

-do tongues still exist today?

-is slain by the spirit biblical?

I bet you will say no to both answers but if I ask somebody else then he will say yes to both answers. But most likely you will simply insist on being right and say that the other christian is either deceived or not wanting the truth and this is exactly the kind of arrogance which I don't like. The others are always wrong or deceived or whatever.... :laugh:
Another thing which I notice is that those conservative christians which condemn everything and which claim to be so biblical hardly ever experience anything. Have you ever experienced a miracle or a healing? Have you ever prayed for somebody and he got healed?
Where is the sense of being ultra-critical and claiming to have the ultimate true christianity when it's totally dead?

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, Amy then answer me these questions:

-do tongues still exist today?

-is slain by the spirit biblical?QUOTE]
I answered your yes or no questions in post #53. Now you answer mine. Then I will address the above questions.

 

[xdisciplex]

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior?
Do you believe the Bible is God's word?

yes to both

but this doesn't mean that everything is totally easy now. if it was so easy and so clear in the bible then false teachings would have no chance at all. what also matters is the interpretation! when you simply take a few bible verses then you can also prove that God is a bird and has wings like a bird....
There are so many things which you can argue about where you simply cannot say who's right. For example wether Isaiah 53:5 is about real diseases or about sin. Christians argue about this and never come to a consens but everybody thinks he's right. This is so frustrating. Even when you think you finally got it right somebody else will come along and tell you that it's totally different....

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, Amy then answer me these questions:

-do tongues still exist today?

-is slain by the spirit biblical?

I bet you will say no to both answers but if I ask somebody else then he will say yes to both answers. But most likely you will simply insist on being right and say that the other christian is either deceived or not wanting the truth and this is exactly the kind of arrogance which I don't like. The others are always wrong or deceived or whatever.... :laugh:
Another thing which I notice is that those conservative christians which condemn everything and which claim to be so biblical hardly ever experience anything. Have you ever experienced a miracle or a healing? Have you ever prayed for somebody and he got healed?
Where is the sense of being ultra-critical and claiming to have the ultimate true christianity when it's totally dead?

You are assuming a lot here. It seems you've already decided what I'm going to say before I say it. I have not accused anyone of anything. As long as there are human beings there will be different opinions. I do not believe that tongues are in use today. There is no biblical evidence for being slain in the spirit. Could I be wrong? Yes. Does it have anything to do with my salvation or relationship with Christ? No. Yes I have prayed for someone's healing and yes they were healed. Yes I have had many prayers answered that could only have been the work of God. I am not looking for "experiences". I want something much deeper than that. As I said in an earlier post, in my early days as a Christian, I was involved in several different denoms one being charasmatic. Even with all their so called tongues and slayings, they were not one bit holier than anyone else. They sin, they mess up, they are learning and searching like the rest of us. You are free to believe whatever you want, but don't criticize me because I don't believe in those things. And don't use it as an excuse not to find out for yourself what is true.

 

[xdisciplex]

And don't use it as an excuse not to find out for yourself what is true.

This sounds as if everything is relative and if I think it's true then I shall go with it and somebody else believes in something else and sticks to this.

 

[Amy.G]

This sounds as if everything is relative and if I think it's true then I shall go with it and somebody else believes in something else and sticks to this.

What I meant was that you have to seek your own relationship with God. And rely on the things that you do know. You know that Jesus died for your sins, He wants us to love one another, follow the commandments, ask forgiveness when we sin..Pray for God to help you in this matter of confusion and be patient for His response. In the mean time, keep reading, praying and obeying. Sometimes it's hard being a follower of Christ and don't think He's left you just because you don't see a sign or an instant answer to prayer. None of us knows all the answers (yet) and anyone who says they do is just fooling themselves. Jesus said, "by this you will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." In times of confusion, go back to the basics. Focus on these things. God will answer all your questions in time. Just trust Him to do so and stop worrying that you don't know everything yet.
Remember this:
1 Corinthians
13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I have become sounding brass or a clanging cymbal.
13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, but have not love, it profits me nothing.

This is what is truly important.

 

[xdisciplex]

All this doesn't help me when I'm not able to discern wether spiritual stuff is from God or not. It's totally senseless when I don't know it. Then I see all these things and don't know what to do with them.

 

[donnA]

You compare them to scripture, scripture taken in context, that what you do find out if they are real or not.
And it doesn't matter what anyone says about slain in the psirit, it isn't in the bible, then it isn't of God.
Scripture is your source of truth and authority in spiritual matters.

 

[Amy.G]

All this doesn't help me when I'm not able to discern wether spiritual stuff is from God or not. It's totally senseless when I don't know it. Then I see all these things and don't know what to do with them.

What do you think will help you?

 

[xdisciplex]

I don't know.

It's not that easy. When you for example see christians standing there and shaking and bending over and making strange moves then how do you know what kind of manifestation that is?
Or when you see a christian leader who claims to have a gift of healing move his hands in the air and then the people move like puppets without being touched by him. How do you deal with such things? He will simply say that he has a special healing gift from God. Then how can you simply say that this isn't from God simply because the bible doesn't mention something like this? The bible doesn't go into detail with everything. Once I opened a thread here where I also posted a link to a video which I had uploaded where I asked for opinions but I think nobody cared enough to download and watch it. There was a christian who was able to let the energy (he said it's the holy spirit) flow through his hands, feet and even his eyes. He had all sick people stand in 1 row and then he stood before them and let the energy flow like a stream and they all stood in 1 row and started to shake. This was really weird and I had never seen anything like it before. How do you know if this is God or not? In such situations the bible doesn't help you. In such situations you needed to have some sort of spiritual discernment where God simply tells you if it's real or not.

Something which confused me even more is that a few weeks ago I watched TV and saw an occult chakra healer who also had the ability to heal and they showed him working on a woman and he made the very same movements with his hands like this christian. The woman stood there and he didn't touch her he only moved his hands in the air as if he was drawing something from her. This was really strange and I thought if this stuff which the christian did was from God then why does it look so similar to what this chakra healer does? But then again one might also simply say that Satan copies everything which is from God.
Do you see now how hard it is to see through today?

 

[Amy.G]

X, this is why we have to compare everything to scripture to see if it's true. Have you ever wondered why you don't hear of Benny Hinn going to hospitals to heal people? Ever heard of him going to Africa to heal the masses of aides? No. Because there is no profit ($$$$$) in it. Let's compare that to scripture. What did Jesus charge to heal people? What did the apostle Paul or the 12 charge to heal people? Zero. In fact the apostle Paul wouldn't accept any money. He worked to support himself. What about slaying in the spirit? What happened when Jesus touched people? Did they fall down in convulsions? No. You won't find any evidence of this phenomena in scripture at all. The prosperity crowd says that Jesus was rich, therefore we should be too. Jesus Himself said "foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." Luke 9:58. Jesus said there's a cost to following Him. If you compare the words and actions of these people you will know that they are false prophets. It's really not complicated. Do like the Bereans who searched the scriptures daily to see if these things were true (Acts 17:11). This is your responsibility as a Christian. Don't rely on other people to do it for you.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Incorrectly posted. Removed partial duplicate.

 

[Not_hard_to_find]

Do you see now how hard it is to see through today?

I've often wondered if your name indicates your position -- an ex disciple. Does it?

 

[xdisciplex]

X, this is why we have to compare everything to scripture to see if it's true. Have you ever wondered why you don't hear of Benny Hinn going to hospitals to heal people?

I know what you mean but I don't know if this argument is valid because where do you know what God even wants to do this? If God wanted to heal a person in front of the camera he could do it. Maybe God doesn't want to do this. You could as well ask why doesn't God simply appear on the heaven and show his face? He could also do this if he wanted to. None of the evangelists go to hospitals and heal everybody maybe simply because God doesn't tell them to because if God doesn't want them to do it they also couldn't heal anybody if they went there on their own.

And the "it's not in the bible" argument doesn't help at all to judge spiritual phenomena because Jesus also did things which seem weird to us for example the stuff with the blind man. And the bible also says that Jesus did many more things. Where do you know that people didn't also fall down and it simply wasn't written down?

@ not hard

no it does not

 

[Amy.G]

X, you have to trust scripture. If you don't then you will never be able to discern the truth. What if? What if? What if? Just a waste of precious time.

 

[Eric B]

Please review postings for examples of patience by many. Then inspect the fruit tree.

Again, quick answer, quick solution. Then, if he doesn't just show the "fruit" we think he should, when we think he should, the patience quickly vaporizes.

Eric,

xx has started 215 threads and interacted with his discussions over 900 times . . .

SOOOOO, for every important question (for which he cannot find a mentor) he interacts on average 3 more times with electronic mentors. That is up over the last 6 months from around 2 interactions per question (during about the last 300 posts).

So we have to be he mentors for now. Some peopke try to answer his questions, then you all tell him to avoid people like Benny Hinn who are overboard with the wild claims and stuff. Fine. But to get that frustrated and then begin questioning his salvation just because he doesnt react the way you think he should, is a bit much; and now all that stuff about "the dark night of the soul" (? If his confusion is so annoying, do you want to confuse him more? Why say something like that? I don't even get that post!)

I have offered to find him a mentor . . . at first xx came back with cute answers, then the answers migrated to the woman pastor that xx is under does not have time and she might be liberal . . . so xx goes from a liberal woman pastor to benny hinn for spiritual needs to be met - INSTEAD OF TO THE WORD OF GOD.

I remember that discourse, and I think the main problem was the distance. You know someone in Germany or wherever he is, or do you mean someone online?

Having offered to help a confused (?) young person find a good discipler, I, and no doubt others, do not believe that xx has ever sincerely looked for discipleship.

And as I believe that I have posted - whatever has to be sacrificed - discipleship is worth the price.

Thread after thread . . .

XX is looking for those that will tickle the ears. I serve a Risen Lord, His Words are not to tickle the ears and make one 'feel good', His Words bring pain and a reaction.

Either the reaction is repentance and submission to His command to be disciples, or it is a rejection of His Word . . . .

Wayne

And this is a highly unfair judgement! Even if he is unsaved, do you know how many people have been turned away from Christ (and often become the most hardnosed atheists) because of Christians being cold, especially when it came to questions? (This includes my father, who remains unsaved). Do we go out into the mission field to prospective converts angry that they are not already mature Christians? Do we count all of their questions like that and just hope they would stop and go away? Yes, he is asking a lot of questions, and many of them have no ready answer. Some do, but no one can seem to agree what the Word of God really says, as everyone has their system or arguments for their preconceived ideas (and the sabbath issue is a perfect example that I was thinking of). It took me a long time to realize that people can answer only but so many questions; and learn to just read for myself and make up my own mind. But it is true that that is hard to do when we realize it could be wrong. At least some like this want the real truth, and not just any quick interpretation that sounds good (contrary to that "tickling of the ears" remark). It seems questions have always been a problem for many Christians, and we have a reputation for dodging them. This ultimately hurts our whole testimony, even though some may buy our quick ready answers and silencing/pacifying techniques.

Yes, there are people playing games through questions, but xdisciple does look like an honest seeker. Yes, "Nowhere does Christ command us to become seekers of knowledge", but then a person has to start somewhere, and how do you expect him to believe in something with no knowledge of it? So whether he is saved or not, you are trying to push "discipleship" and now "repentance" on him, but if he does not understand, then coming down in judgment is not going to do anything but push him further away if he does happen to be unsaved--like he is really doing something to you because he has a lot of questions there are no easy answers for. As I said, this speaks alot about our faith, just as much or more than him. If he's just a faker playing games, then leave it to God; threats won;t faze him anyway. Meanwhile, we have had several supposed "confused Protestant questioners" recently who quickly went from questioning to trying to teach us "the truth" of the Catholic/Orthodox position, and I noticed nobody jumped on them like that, yet those are the ones people should have been suspecting.

So again, answer him if you can; admit you don't know the answer if necessary, tell him to avoid charlatans, and give them the scriptural reasons why that person is false, as some are doing. If you;re still that tired of him, just ignore him. But all the judgment and annoyance is not necessary, and can only cause more problems. You cannot shake everyone up through tough talk. Some people, yes, but everyone is different.

 

[El_Guero]

Eric,

Do you want to see me frustrated?

Frustrated? When I ran up to the car and the woman had glass in her eyes and no blood in them . . . death on impact and there was nothing that I could do for her or the boy that was cunvulsing . . . That frustrates me.

What frustrates you? Some child rejecting the Word of God and getting ready to condemn himself to the dark night of the soul because he is playing with demonism? He should be disipled . . . and if you think that 'electronic' works - prove he has grown in his faith at all, even a little bit.

Play on . . . play on.

 

[El_Guero]

Eric,

For your issues . . . I regret that your father is choosing to reject the Word of God . . . however, it reads like you are reacting to XX based upon a fear that you or I can change his heart.

Only the God that I (and you) fear can change a heart. As long as XX refuses to be changed, he won't be changed.

And since he is playing with fire, he will get burned.

I am a servant of God Almighty. If I was a fireman and did not tell you to not go into the burning house and you died, your family would sue me for not doing my 'j.o.b.'.

I serve God - when I warn someone of the coming judgment and they choose to ignore the warning God says that I have save myself from judgment . . . I FEAR GOD. (Ezekiel 3 & 33).

He needs navigators or even charismatic (conservative) discipleship. He does not need more ouiji board maneuvering.

 

[xdisciplex]

Very well said, Eric. :thumbsup:

I feel like in the end it simply boils down to simply making up your own mind and trying to get your own opinion but this is not satisfying to me. I don't want to simply get an own opinion where I can never be sure that I am really correct and then simply defend it in a stubborn manner and to simply trust that God will always make sure that I am always right and everybody who disagrees with me is simply wrong. Maybe some people can do this and I also admit that this makes life much easier because basically you simply put your blinders on and deny everything which doesn't fit into your wonderfully constructed, waterproof house of theology. Everybody has his own house of theology which was constructed over the years of listening to a pastor and which offers a closed worldview. But once you have your closed theology every kind of change is dangerous because it might cause instability. I think this is also a reason why some people strictly deny everything which is different, it's as if a person is simply raised as a baptists or charismatic or whatever and then they simply stick to it because learning something new and getting a new set of opinions is too difficult or requires too much effort.
I don't know in which direction I shall go. I don't want to learn something wrong and then become trapped by my own theological worldview which doesn't allow any changes. Once you make the decision in which direction you go everything is pretty much decided. Either you become totally conservative and then you're against everything which has something to do with miracles or spiritual manifestations or you decide to become pentecostal or charismatic and then you're open towards all these things.
I simply want the real stuff but somehow it's really like there are only these 2 options. Either a conservative church which is basically dead. I have been to a baptist church and seen their church service and it seemed pretty dead to me. I cannot say that I had the feeling that God is moving there. I think that something like this would start to bore me pretty fast. I want a pastor who really hears from God where you really notice that he doesn't only have theoretical knowledge and has studied all the great theologians. I want a pastor who really has authority who you can ask and where you don't only get an answer which is based on human wisdom. This is what I'm looking for. Somebody where you really feel like you're in good hands where you also have the feeling that God speaks to him. Not somebody who is basically as clueless as me.
If I lived in the USA then I know in which church I would go but I don't live there.

 

[xdisciplex]

What frustrates you? Some child rejecting the Word of God and getting ready to condemn himself to the dark night of the soul because he is playing with demonism? He should be disipled . . . and if you think that 'electronic' works - prove he has grown in his faith at all, even a little bit.

Play on . . . play on.

You, El_Guero are a real nut.
I cannot take you seriously anymore. To me you seem even stranger than those charismatics. I never said that I play with ouiji boards.
I know exactly what's going on with you. You're simply offended or angry because you feel like I don't listen to your unrealistic advice and now you behave like a child and decided to spam every single one of my threads.And now you go from spamming to your scare tactics trying to push buttons. This is all you're trying to do. Scaring me and pushing buttons trying to get a reaction from me. I think you should use your time for more useful things.