Good & Evil Angels

[just-want-peace]

The following quote from the "SUPER-GOD" thread.

First there was Super-God. He was holy, pure, righteous and loving, and he created God. But God rebelled against Super-God and became corrupt, and lost his immortality, but still had the power of creation. While in his corrupted state, God created the world, also in a corrupted state, but sometime after the creation, he repented of his sin and prayed to Super-God for salvation, which was granted. God's salvation was total and complete, and his immortality was restored, unlike the salvation given to man where we are set free from the ultimate consequences of sin but continue to live with its temporal consequences until we die and are raised again at the Last Day. God's salvation was so complete, it was as if he had never sinned in the first place, and he was elevated to a state where he could be worshipped by humans, and could give them salvation. But the world that he had created remained in its corrupted state, as it is to this day.

This brings to mind something that my wife once asked me & really got me to thinking.

Her question:

If Heaven was a perfect place, how did satan have the ability/capability to rebel?

To the best of my knowledge this question is never answered in scripture, but I have a theory.

No scriptural support for this that I'm aware of, but it does make sense; at least to me.

God created all (Heaven, earth, universe et al) in a perfect and pristine condition.

Before the fall, possibly before man's creation, the angels were similar to the first man in that, even being perfect, there was the potential for rebellion. Upon becoming very personally aware of his status & beauty, satan let pride push his ambitions a little too far. Hence his rebellion against God Himself.

At this point, God gave the angels the choice, again similar to ours, of following Him, or casting their lot with satan and his rebellious ambitions. Once their choice was made, their eternal destiny was firm, just as ours is after death, depending on our pre-death choice.

The angels are now living in their "eternity", just as we will be after death, in the once again perfect environment; but now with ZERO chance of sin.

Would love to see any scripture to validate OR refute this idea.

(Frankly I'm anxiously looking forward to that "sin-free" environment; if for no other reason than that my feelings & attitude toward others will change!!)

 

[just-want-peace]

Bump!!!

Looking over old postings, this is one I forgot about, but would really love to hear some serious input about.

Thanks!

 

[OldRegular]

I will start by questioning if the referenced thread was on this Baptist Forum and if it was why was such a heretical thread allowed?

 

[Marcia]

Just-want-peace, why did you post that thing about "Supergod?" What's the point you are trying to make with it? It's totally heretical.

 

[Amy.G]

The OP comes from THIS THREAD.

 

[Marcia]

OK, but I'm still not getting the connection.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, but I'm still not getting the connection.

Same here.

 

[Jim1999]

John Calvin, in his institutes, wrote: "angels are the dispensers and administrators of the divine beneficence toward us. They regard our safety, undertake our defense, direct our ways, and exercise a constant solicitude that no evil befall us."

An angel is the messenger of God, without a body, and created by God for a specific function.

Angels have more mention in scripture than does the devil, yet fewer books have been written about angels and even fewer sermons. Amazing!

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

John Calvin, in his institutes, wrote: "angels are the dispensers and administrators of the divine beneficence toward us. They regard our safety, undertake our defense, direct our ways, and exercise a constant solicitude that no evil befall us."

An angel is the messenger of God, without a body, and created by God for a specific function.

Angels have more mention in scripture than does the devil, yet fewer books have been written about angels and even fewer sermons. Amazing!

Cheers,

Jim

Maybe fewer Christian books, Jim, but tons of New Age books about angels are out there! New Agers love angels!

Btw, there is a new Rose Publishing brochure on Angels, "10 Q & A on Angels"
http://www.rose-publishing.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=1161

I wrote the answer to Question 6: Are all angels good and wonderful? My name is not on it since I only wrote the answer to one question, though. Rob Bowman is the author.

This gives me the chance to say:

I am the author of "10 Q & A on Magic, Spells, and Divination":
http://www.rose-publishing.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=999

And I was one of 4 contributors to "Christianity, Cults, and the Occult"
http://www.rose-publishing.com/productdetails.cfm?PC=731

(I wrote on the Church of Satan, the Kabbalah Centre, Astrology, scriptural warnings on the occult, and a glossary of occult terms).

These are only $3.99. (I get no royalties! :laugh: ).

Some of them have power point presentations as well.

 

[Jim1999]

You have been a busy lady. Bless you.

Poor me, I have only written one book in my lifetime and it was in 1948, a children's book in Wales, The Pony That Couldn't. It was in England and didn't even follow me to Canada..lol.

Back to angels. There is a need for more books on the truth of angels ad not the storybook falacies.

Billy Graham wrote a popular book back in 1965 (I think) on angels. I have over ten thousand books in my library and that is the only book I have on angels.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Marcia]

Ron Rhodes, a Christian author, has a book on angels:

Angels Among Us: Separating Fact from Fiction

 

[Jim1999]

Thanks Marcia. I have made note of the book and will have a look for it.

Cheers,

Jim

PS. I had a grandfather into Christian Science and a great aunt a follower of Madam Blavatsky...I know a little about the cults.

 

[just-want-peace]

Just-want-peace, why did you post that thing about "Supergod?" What's the point you are trying to make with it? It's totally heretical.

The only point I had was to tell how it brought to mind the question my wife once asked me.

Now, any thoughts on my OP from anyone?

 

[Marcia]

The only point I had was to tell how it brought to mind the question my wife once asked me.

Now, any thoughts on my OP from anyone?

I guess what you said is speculation and we can't know that's how it went. The only scriptural support is that we know Satan and his angels turned bad before man was created (since Satan came to tempt Adam), and that angels can't be saved (Heb. 1 and 2) because Jesus died only for men.

 

[just-want-peace]

I guess what you said is speculation and we can't know that's how it went. The only scriptural support is that we know Satan and his angels turned bad before man was created (since Satan came to tempt Adam), and that angels can't be saved (Heb. 1 and 2) because Jesus died only for men.

AFAIK you are correct about any scriptural reference to this situation, but that was just a theory I concocted from the question my wife asked.

And it is legitimate; if Heaven is SINLESS how did sin come to be in Heaven?

 

[Amy.G]

AFAIK you are correct about any scriptural reference to this situation, but that was just a theory I concocted from the question my wife asked.

And it is legitimate; if Heaven is SINLESS how did sin come to be in Heaven?

Where does it say that sin was ever in heaven? God threw Satan down, did He not? And sent the disobedient angels to the abyss.


Also, sin is not an entity in and of itself. It is transgression against God, nothing more, nothing less. Anyone with a free will can sin.

 

[Allan]

Where does it say that sin was ever in heaven? God threw Satan down, did He not? And sent the disobedient angels to the abyss.

Threw him down from where Amy?

Eze 28:14 Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Here is the ESV's rendition:

“You were an anointed guardian cherub.
I placed you;* you were on the holy mountain of God;
in the midst of the stones of fire you walked.

What is this angel (Satan) a guardian or better a watchman over?

It is a shadow of the Jewish Ark of the Covenant where the Cherub angels are 'covering/guarding/watching over'' the mercy seat and we also see this in Revelation 4:6 with Cherub angels who fly around the throne of God crying "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. "

Strongs states of a Cherub:
1) cherub, cherubim (pl)

a) an angelic being

1) as guardians of Eden

2) as flanking God's throne

3) as an image form hovering over the Ark of the Covenant

4) as the chariot of Jehovah (fig.)


So we know that the one we call Satan was both with God in His dwelling covering/watching over/guarding (Ezk 28:16), as well as 'in Eden the garden of God' (Ezk 28:13)
Thus if Satan was 'cast down' by God and Jesus states He saw Satan fall like lightening we can know that Sin touched heaven for however a brief moment. Let us not forget the war that is still yet to be raged in heaven (and for my Covenant brothers - that HAS already raged in heaven). Sin has/had to be present if they were there to do and doing battle. Also did you ever wonder why God was going to create a New Heaven and a New Earth? It was because He is going to remove all rememberance of sin.

Secondly,
Not all the fallen angels were placed in abyss. Scripture speaks of only some of them who are chained till it is time to loose them as part of His final judgment.
If they were all in the abyss then what was Jesus casting out, or after Him the Apostles, or after them believers. Why does scripture state that we "wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high [places]. " If that which we wrestle against is NOT flesh and blood but are something that has power and is a ruler of the darkness and spiritual wickedness - what is it them if not flesh and blood.

Answer: They are demons.

 

[OldRegular]

The OP is related to the gnostic heresy which appeared early in the Church and still rears its heretical head now and then. Some gnostics envisioned an array of gods, each one on a slightly lower level, until they reached a god who was low enough to create.

Although some believe that gnosticism did not appear in the Church until the 2nd century it is clear that certain aspects of the Apostle John's writings were against this heresy.

 

[Marcia]

The OP is related to the gnostic heresy which appeared early in the Church and still rears its heretical head now and then. Some gnostics envisioned an array of gods, each one on a slightly lower level, until they reached a god who was low enough to create.

Although some believe that gnosticism did not appear in the Church until the 2nd century it is clear that certain aspects of the Apostle John's writings were against this heresy.

As well as parts of Colossians.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Angel is just a Job title for these beings. Super-God verses a lesser God is no different the the AEONS that Ireaneus talks about with regard to gnostics.