Good vs Evil 2

[Luke2427]

His 'free-self' or his 'determined-self?'

His SELF self.

See what you are doing? You are presuming that the SELF couldn't have been created to be free, which is question begging. You have to PROVE that the SELF couldn't have been created free.

Define "free" because by that it seems that you mean the ability to make decisions without reasons for having made them.

If that is the case then you have people making unreasonable decisions.

I don't have that burden on me, because I've gladly admitted that the determined self is a possible theory to the answer of our mystery. You are the one claiming that a 'free-self' is beyond God's creative capacity and thus you LIMIT what God could do based on a mystery and a presumed theory.

That would be like saying, "You limit God when you say God could not create an eternal or an almighty being based on mystery as to HOW he could do it."

The burden lies squarely on you to prove your theory HAS to be the right answer to our mystery and that mine is impossible. Good luck with that.

New theory. The Spaghetti Monster makes us choose what we choose.

That's every bit as good as NOTHING is the reason we choose what we choose.

And that something else has to be God, who Himself has a will based on His Self and you get to the exact same appeal to mystery to answer that same mysterious question of how the will works, but by putting it off onto God you have the dreaded Dahmer issue where God's will is indistinguishable from the will of His evil creatures.

For the umpteenth time, it is NOT the same thing because God is not us. Comparing the mystery involved in the eternal, almighty, everywhere present, all-knowing God to the mystery within a human being is terrible equivocation.

That is a violation of his holiness and clear biblical revelation...so why do it? Why put it off onto God? Why not appeal to mystery one step before you do instead of IMPOSING YOUR THEORY of determinism upon a mysterious issues that we couldn't possibly fully comprehend with our finite linear logic???

Because it is NOT a violation of his holiness and it is clearly revealed in Scripture.

God's independency is one of his incommunicable attributes. God can no more make a man with the ability to make things out of nothing than God can make a man who is eternal, almighty and exhaustively sovereign.

It is NOT a mystery how men make decisions. You SAYING there is this mysterious aspect does not mean that it is a valid assertion.

It is no more valid than saying the Flying Spaghettie monster makes people make decisions.

We know, and you admit, that there are a myriad of influential factors outside of the will that move the will. Why assume there is anything else besides those factors?

There is no reason. You just make it up because you don't like to think of a God who is in complete control of everything (or at least you are following somebody who made it up).

 

[Skandelon]

His SELF self.

which you are presuming is a determined self...that was my point.

Define "free" because by that it seems that you mean the ability to make decisions without reasons for having made them.

No, as I have said elsewhere. Reasons are just that...REASONS...reasonings of the will. If reasons made determinations then they would be called determiners. They are reasonings, nothing more. A determiner makes determinations. And while influences, desires and other 'reasonings' speak to the choice, it is the chooser who chooses...the determiner who determines. You are taking the will out of the equation by presuming that something besides the will is doing the willing.

If that is the case then you have people making unreasonable decisions.

By that logic, God's decisions must necessarily be unreasonable. God is the ultimate reason for his choices, just as we are the reason for our choices. Why? Because that is the way God made us.

That would be like saying, "You limit God when you say God could not create an eternal or an almighty being based on mystery as to HOW he could do it."

I actually suppose God could do so if He wanted, because I can imagine God is omnipotent enough to do so. But I'm not claiming God is creating an almighty creature, just a responsible one.

That's every bit as good as NOTHING is the reason we choose what we choose.

Sigh...I give up.

 

[Luke2427]

which you are presuming is a determined self...that was my point.

No, I am presuming it is a created self- a contingent being.

Everything we observe indicates that we are dependent beings. We depend on forces outside of ourselves to create ourselves and sustain ourselves.

Everything we have and do depends on things provided to us. That includes our wills.

There is no reason to assume the will is somehow independent. This is especially true since we know it depends on life (which is not self-sustained), the brain, the desires (which are not self-made), etc...

Now these are facts- no matter how much you dislike the implications of those facts (we are just puppets, God is the author of evil or whatever else you think they mean) they are reality.

No, as I have said elsewhere. Reasons are just that...REASONS...reasonings of the will. If reasons made determinations then they would be called determiners. They are reasonings, nothing more. A determiner makes determinations. And while influences, desires and other 'reasonings' speak to the choice, it is the chooser who chooses...

The choose chooses BASED on reasons which the will did not create nor does the will sustain.

The REASON you choose a hamburger over a hotdog is because of your taste buds, past experiences, genetic make-up, environment in which your desires were formed, etc, etc, etc...

Those things DETERMINE what your choice will be.

That's as plain as the nose on your face.

You want what you want because you are what you are. You are what you are because that is what you were made to be. No matter how unpleasant the implications of that fact are, you don't get to INVENT impossible notionis and call them possible and when questioned how they are possible just say- IT'S A MYSTERY!!

There is no more reason to think that man can create choices out of nothing than to think that man can be God.

Choices are BASED on things. Those things (desires, environment, etc...) determine what the choices will be. Since you do not control those things, you really do not control the choices.

By that logic, God's decisions must necessarily be unreasonable. God is the ultimate reason for his choices, just as we are the reason for our choices. Why? Because that is the way God made us.

You continue with this equivocation.

You are not God. Not even close. The mystery level when it comes to God cannot be intelligently compared to the mystery level of men.

EVERYTHING about God is a mystery. Man is not that mysterious.

I actually suppose God could do so if He wanted, because I can imagine God is omnipotent enough to do so. But I'm not claiming God is creating an almighty creature, just a responsible one.

Then you don't understand omnipotence at all. Furthermore you don't understand theology proper and God's incommunicable attributes.

Sigh...I give up.

I would think so.

 

[Skandelon]

No, I am presuming it is a created self- a contingent being.

Whose will is determined by his maker...that is what you are presuming onto the word "self." You completely disavow even the possibility that a creature could have been created to be free...

Everything we observe indicates that we are dependent beings. We depend on forces outside of ourselves to create ourselves and sustain ourselves.

Equivocation. You seem to think that our dependence on our Creator for existence equals our dependence on Him to make choices...even the evil ones. Again, it presumes that to exist is to be determined.

Everything we have and do depends on things provided to us. That includes our wills.

That's not a WILL, Luke. That is an instinct. You have reduced mankind to the animal kingdom.

There is no reason to assume the will is somehow independent. This is especially true since we know it depends on life (which is not self-sustained), the brain, the desires (which are not self-made), etc...

You know at this point I might be tempted to accuse you of making men like robots but even they have more independence from their creators than what you presume about mankind.

The REASON you choose a hamburger over a hotdog is because of your taste buds, past experiences, genetic make-up, environment in which your desires were formed, etc, etc, etc...

Those things DETERMINE what your choice will be.

Those "things" are determiners? Then why don't they spend an eternity in Hell for making those evil determinations?

I think you mean that GOD determined what your choice will be, right? Those things didn't determine anything....things don't make determinations. Things don't make choices. Apparently, at least in your system, only God makes determinations/choices...and based on previous conversations you con't even believe God makes actual choices because that too would violate your finite logic.

That's as plain as the nose on your face.

And yet for some reason God determined for me not to see it like he determined you to see it. That is what is so ironic about this discussion. The very fact that you engage this debate proves that you really don't believe what you say you believe...unless you just like the idea of debating God's puppet on the other hand.

There is no more reason to think that man can create choices out of nothing than to think that man can be God.

Here we go again...

A will is not nothing, Luke. A chooser is not nothing. A person is not nothing.

And no one said that man can be God...you know that. That is equivocation.

EVERYTHING about God is a mystery. Man is not that mysterious.

WOW...that is interesting. That shows how little you really know about mankind. Just take a few courses on anatomy, physiology, psychology, cognitive science, anthropology and even a few more on theology to see that we as humans know VERY little about all that God has created, especially as it relates to those created in his very image.

How can you conclude that God is such a mysterious Being, while presuming that the crown of his creation, those created in his very image are nothing more than programmed, predetermined drones that have little mysterious aspects?

Explain LOVE and HOPE and human creativity! You CAN'T! You can't even begin to fully define the scope and abilities of the human mind, much less the emotional and creative abilities. You can try, but the most notable scholars on these subjects are the first to admit there is SOOO much we don't even know yet.

What you just said, would be like an Astronaut concluding that there is nothing that mysterious about space and that we have really uncovered all that can really be known. EVERY other scholar in the field would denounce such a small minded and short sighted comment as that.

I would think so.

You would say that. It gets tiring for you to continue to conclude that the will is nothing...that men are nothing...that determiners are nothing...all the while giving determination abilities to "THINGS". Amazing!!!

 

[Luke2427]

Those "things" are determiners? Then why don't they spend an eternity in Hell for making those evil determinations?

Those things- desires, intellect- you don't think they determine the choices one makes?

I desire a hamburger over a hot dog so I CHOOSE a hamburger over a hotdog.

The SO in that sentence indicates that my desires determined what my choice would be.

Now, it's not JUST desires, but the choice does hinge upon those things.

I think you mean that GOD determined what your choice will be, right?

God made those things what they are, too. Yes.

And yet for some reason God determined for me not to see it like he determined you to see it.

It would not be the first time he has hardened someone's heart to serve his own purposes.

Here we go again...

A will is not nothing, Luke. A chooser is not nothing. A person is not nothing.

I did not say the will is nothing.

I am saying the will makes choices BECAUSE of things.

One can say, "My will chose the hamburger BECAUSE..."

The root word of "because" is "cause".

Something caused the will to choose the hamburger over the hotdog.

That thing or things may be desires, taste buds, intellect, or a number of other things that caused the will to choose what it chose.

We all KNOW that this is true. The only ones who deny it are the ones who DESPISE the implications of this truth (man is a puppet, blah, blah, blah).

And no one said that man can be God...you know that. That is equivocation.

Yes, I am equivocating your claim that man can create things out of himself without any cause outside of himself or reason outside of himself to do so with the claim that man can be God.

Yes, that is what I am doing.

WOW...that is interesting. That shows how little you really know about mankind. Just take a few courses on anatomy, physiology, psychology, cognitive science, anthropology and even a few more on theology to see that we as humans know VERY little about all that God has created, especially as it relates to those created in his very image.

So then you think the mystery level when it comes to man rivals the mystery level when it comes to GOD!?!!?


AMAZING!!!

How can you conclude that God is such a mysterious Being, while presuming that the crown of his creation, those created in his very image are nothing more than programmed, predetermined drones that have little mysterious aspects?

Who said little??

I said man is not THAT mysterious linking to my previous statement that God is infinitely mysterious.

Explain LOVE and HOPE and human creativity!

I can at least say that love is OF God and so is the power to create and that he is the well spring of all hope.

There is no reason to think that choices are not fully reliant upon God as well.


What you are reduced to is this.

Either man makes decisions BECAUSE of things or for no reason whatsoever.

If he makes decisions because of things (yes, things God made and ordered),those things determine his choices.

If he makes decision for no reason, not based on desires which he does not create or "self-cause", not the intellect which is the culmination over time of information and knowledge which is external to him, and not for any other external reason- then all of his decisions are unreasonable.

The answer to the question, "For what cause did you choose that?" is "For NO CAUSE WHATSOEVER."

 

[Skandelon]

Those things- desires, intellect- you don't think they determine the choices one makes?

Your answer is in the question...notice what YOU wrote..."the choices one makes." The agent, YOU, are MAKING or CREATING a CHOICE. You said it yourself. The other THINGS are just THINGS...they influence and speak to the chooser but HE and only HE is RESPONSIBLE for that choice.

I desire a hamburger over a hot dog so I CHOOSE a hamburger over a hotdog.

The SO in that sentence indicates that my desires determined what my choice would be.

You chose to act (eat a hotdog) based upon that desire, you could have chosen the competing desire for a hamburger and chose to act based on that desire. You are not an animal, like a lion who would have to "choose" to eat a steak over a leaf.

So then you think the mystery level when it comes to man rivals the mystery level when it comes to GOD!?!!?Who said little??

I said man is not THAT mysterious linking to my previous statement that God is infinitely mysterious.

Oh, ok. I can accept that. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you didn't think mankind was mysterious, but now that I see it as a comparative to God statement, it makes sense.

My point is that if God is SOO mysterious (which we both agree He is) then why is it so hard to accept the POSSIBILITY that the creature made in His image and uniquely held responsible for his choices might contain a level of mystery similar to that of God in regard to that responsibility?

 

[Luke2427]

Your answer is in the question...notice what YOU wrote..."the choices one makes." The agent, YOU, are MAKING or CREATING a CHOICE. You said it yourself.

That's never been a matter of contention.

Men make billions of things. But they don't make them out of nothing and they don't make them based on nothing.

They use things that are there to make them and there are REASONS why the make what they make.

The other THINGS are just THINGS...they influence and speak to the chooser but HE and only HE is RESPONSIBLE for that choice.

He determines based on WHAT?

You chose to act (eat a hotdog) based upon that desire, you could have chosen the competing desire for a hamburger and chose to act based on that desire. You are not an animal, like a lion who would have to "choose" to eat a steak over a leaf.

Exactly. And you choose which ever one you desire the most. So a man is bound by his desires. Where do the desires come from?

Oh, ok. I can accept that. I misunderstood. I thought you were saying you didn't think mankind was mysterious, but now that I see it as a comparative to God statement, it makes sense.

My point is that if God is SOO mysterious (which we both agree He is) then why is it so hard to accept the POSSIBILITY that the creature made in His image and uniquely held responsible for his choices might contain a level of mystery similar to that of God in regard to that responsibility?

Because everything that makes God mysterious is his Godness- his "I am-ness"- his absence of contingency, his independency, his ability to exist and do things without anything to do them with- that is the very thing that identifies him as transcendent above all created beings.

You are trying to take attributes, incommunicable attributes, that only God can have and that are the essence of what God IS and make man have them, too.

Are there REASONS why man choose what he chooses?

Where do those reasons come from? (forgive the ending of sentences in prepositions)

What compels man to choose what he chooses and when you say he compels himself- how? With what does he compel himself?

Why assume he DOES compel himself when everything about us indicates that men make decisions based on desires that they did not create and that they do not sustain?

What is different about what you are claiming and the claim that the Spaghetti Monster causes our choices? In other words, why should we think your claim is any more credible?

Finally, is this not just one tremendous exercise to deny the facts because you don't like the implications of those facts?

 

[Skandelon]

That's never been a matter of contention.

Men make billions of things. But they don't make them out of nothing and they don't make them based on nothing.

I have never said they do make decision out of nothing. They make them out of their wills, just like God makes his decisions. And I never said they didn't base those decisions on reasons. The reasonings of the will are numerous and unmeasurable, thus I appeal to mystery as to all the influential factors involved in the working of the will (whether human or divine). That doesn't negate the given fact the the determination is made by the determiner and God is not the only determiner in this universe...as that is not the way HE CHOSE to design it. In other words, it is our contention that God determined not to be the determiner of some things...and you are conclusively asserting that God is not able, not powerful enough, not creative enough to make such a determination.

Where do the desires come from?

Where do God's desires come from? You are not avoiding the mystery by asking this question and concluding they come from God...you just put evil desires in the heart of God rather than where they belong...in the heart of the creature.

 

[Luke2427]

I have never said they do make decision out of nothing. They make them out of their wills, just like God makes his decisions. And I never said they didn't base those decisions on reasons. The reasonings of the will are numerous and unmeasurable, thus I appeal to mystery as to all the influential factors involved in the working of the will (whether human or divine). That doesn't negate the given fact the the determination is made by the determiner and God is not the only determiner in this universe...as that is not the way HE CHOSE to design it. In other words, it is our contention that God determined not to be the determiner of some things...and you are conclusively asserting that God is not able, not powerful enough, not creative enough to make such a determination.

Where do God's desires come from? You are not avoiding the mystery by asking this question and concluding they come from God...you just put evil desires in the heart of God rather than where they belong...in the heart of the creature.

You ignored a whole lot of questions and arguments and, seemingly, cherry picked the ones you thought you could handle.

I try to be thorough in responding to your posts. I think you ought to do the same.

Perhaps you might go back and respond in a more thorough manner.

 

[Skandelon]

You ignored a whole lot of questions and arguments and, seemingly, cherry picked the ones you thought you could handle.

How does it feel? You've been doing that to me for a very long time.

And if you haven't noticed you keep saying the exact same things over and over. Just look back over your posts and see how many times you've accused my view of being based on nothing. How many times do I have to answer that unfounded claim? God is not nothing yet his determinations are only based on himself. And humans, created in His image, are not nothing and their is nothing illogical about human's determinations being only based on themselves...its called self-determinism. The cause of choice is the chooser. It is not that difficult to understand and it is a very well established point of view. Eventually I have to get off the merry-go-round with you because its just the same thing over and over.

 

[Luke2427]

How does it feel? You've been doing that to me for a very long time.

And if you haven't noticed you keep saying the exact same things over and over. Just look back over your posts and see how many times you've accused my view of being based on nothing.

That's because you keep saying it is based on itself.

Only GOD is based on himself. NOTHING else in the universe can be based on its self.

You have YET to acknowledge that God has incommunicable attributes.

 

[Skandelon]

That's because you keep saying it is based on itself.

I'm saying the choice is based on the chooser. The choice is not based on itself, it is based on the one MAKING THE CHOICE...the one RESPONSE-ABLE for the CHOICE.

Only GOD is based on himself.

I think you mean to say that only God's choices are based on God alone, and I'm saying that God is powerful enough to have created a creature with the ability to make a choice that is not based on God, but based on himself. You think God is too weak to accomplish that, thus he is limited to only be able to create determined agents who are held responsible for God's responses.

You have YET to acknowledge that God has incommunicable attributes.

I do believe and have affirmed there are qualities unique only to God. I just don't believe responsibility is one of those attributes. Nor do I believe God is not able to make creatures responsible for their own choices. (choices that are not dependent on God's determination of them)

 

[Luke2427]

I'm saying the choice is based on the chooser. The choice is not based on itself, it is based on the one MAKING THE CHOICE...the one RESPONSE-ABLE for the CHOICE.

And what does the chooser BASE his choice upon?

I think you mean to say that only God's choices are based on God alone, and I'm saying that God is powerful enough to have created a creature with the ability to make a choice that is not based on God, but based on himself. You think God is too weak to accomplish that, thus he is limited to only be able to create determined agents who are held responsible for God's responses.

I am saying that independency is an incommunicable attribute of God. It is the pith and marrow of his I Am-ness.

I am saying that you are trying to make that an attribute of man.

I do believe and have affirmed there are qualities unique only to God. I just don't believe responsibility is one of those attributes.

This is only about responsibility in your mind. What it is about is whether or not man can conjure up of his own self something not contingent upon anything else.

This is about you trying to make man God and claiming God is powerful enough to do things that he is in reality TOO POWERFUL to do- namely to communicate his incommunicable attributes.

 

[Skandelon]

And what does the chooser BASE his choice upon?

Here we go round the merry go wheel, the merry go wheel, the merry go wheel, here we go round the merry go wheel all the live long day...

The same thing God bases his choices on...himself...his will. That's what a will does...it wills. It makes choices.

I am saying that independency is an incommunicable attribute of God.

By what authority are you saying that? Chapter and verse?
Remember, I'm not dening that this COULD be true, but you are denying the it can be untrue and that is what makes your position indefensible. You are claiming God cannot make a creature who is able to make choices determined by himself. And you base that on your finite limited imagination and lack of ability to understand how He might go about creating it.

Ironically, in other threads you go on rebuking people for their views as if they are coming up with them themselves. Why not rebuke God for determining them to say those things?

 

[InTheLight]

You are claiming God cannot make a creature who is able to make choices determined by himself. And you base that on your finite limited imagination and lack of ability to understand how He might go about creating it.

Yet ANOTHER Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God.

 

[Luke2427]

Here we go round the merry go wheel, the merry go wheel, the merry go wheel, here we go round the merry go wheel all the live long day...

The same thing God bases his choices on...himself...his will. That's what a will does...it wills. It makes choices.

Got it. You believe man is God.

Got it.

Man's self is not contingent upon anything so his decisions are based on that which is not contingent.

So... Man is God.

Got it.

By what authority are you saying that? Chapter and verse?
Remember, I'm not dening that this COULD be true, but you are denying the it can be untrue and that is what makes your position indefensible. You are claiming God cannot make a creature who is able to make choices determined by himself. And you base that on your finite limited imagination and lack of ability to understand how He might go about creating it.

So you need me to give you chapter and verse that declare that God's independency is unique to GOD??

Ironically, in other threads you go on rebuking people for their views as if they are coming up with them themselves. Why not rebuke God for determining them to say those things?

What? You must believe God is too weak to create a creature to do exactly what God determined him to do and still hold that creature fully accountable at the same time.

You believe God is too WEAK to do that, right?

 

[Skandelon]

Got it. You believe man is God.

Yes, you got me Luke. I'm believe I'm equal to God because I believe God didn't determine for me to lie, lust, steal and cheat. You figured me out.

I'm done with this...

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

:thumbsup:

I'm done with this...

Took you long enough. Trolls'll drive ya nuts. I'm working on a new product to handle this problem ...

It's not perfected yet, though.

 

[Luke2427]

Yes, you got me Luke. I'm believe I'm equal to God because I believe God didn't determine for me to lie, lust, steal and cheat. You figured me out.

I'm done with this...

No, you believe you are as independent as God. You, like God Almighty, can make decisions based on yourself- a self which you see as, Like God, not contingent upon anything.

Everything in the UNIVERSE is contingent upon something but your WILL (or yourself).

Your will (or yourself) has the primary characteristic of Godness. You will (or self) can say of itself, "I am that I am."

When your will asks yourself, "Who shall I tell has sent me with this decision?" yourself responds, "Tell them I AM has sent you because mySELF is self-existent."

Or your WILL is self-existent- whichever one is not contingent upon anything.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbsup:Took you long enough. Trolls'll drive ya nuts. I'm working on a new product to handle this problem ...

It's not perfected yet, though.

You're so cute! Thanks for that wonderful contribution. Skandelon does not think I am trolling. He went to great lengths just one DAY ago to defend our conversation.

Yet, what is IRONIC is that this VERY POST OF YOURS is the TEXTBOOK definition of trolling.

Hypocrite! LOL!