Gospel Community

[HAMel]

Hey, matt wade..., where'd you go?

My five year old Grandson came home from kindergarten yesterday with a fever of 100.5. Care to offer up a diagnosis?

Hey matt wade! Am I being sarcastic here? Yep, I sure am.

Sorry folks but this has been gnawing at me since yesterday. Why, because when someone opens their heart up for all to see the critics start pointing fingers and assigning blame. Then we sit back and wonder why Christian Assemblies suffer from extremely low blood pressure. :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

 

[matt wade]

Hey, matt wade..., where'd you go?

My five year old Grandson came home from kindergarten yesterday with a fever of 100.5. Care to offer up a diagnosis?

Hey matt wade! Am I being sarcastic here? Yep, I sure am.

Sorry folks but this has been gnawing at me since yesterday. Why, because when someone opens their heart up for all to see the critics start pointing fingers and assigning blame. Then we sit back and wonder why Christian Assemblies suffer from extremely low blood pressure. :BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:

I'm here...figured you really didn't want to get into it, but I guess you do.

The bottom line is that you've listed that all your children and all your grandchildren are living ungodly lives. The reasoning you gave was:

It happened because Satan is working overtime. Churches are NOT meeting the needs.

I simply made the observation that if all your children and all your grandchildren are running wild, it probably isn't the fault of the church. If you think that raising your kids is the church's responsibility then I think we've identified part of the problem.

 

[HAMel]

I simply made the observation that if all your children and all your grandchildren are running wild, it probably isn't the fault of the church. If you think that raising your kids is the church's responsibility then I think we've identified part of the problem.

Our Grand Daughter provided us with a Great Grand Daughter. Ask me if we're proud of her. Go ahead, ask. Well, this child is, in our opinion, quite intelligent. At a year and a half she was speaking to us in complete sentences. She also understood/understands quite well. We are of the opinion this child is much farther along than any of the others were at her age. Time will tell.

So the other day I mentioned to my Grand Daughter (Victoria) that now is the time to begin thinking about her enrolling her child in one of our local Christian Schools. She went high and to the right and refused to even speak of it.

Why? I asked. She responded with, "...do you remember Mrs. Henderson"? Yep, and then it all came flooding back into my mind.

This "Christian Woman" who taught in a "Christian School" would select one child every year to make an example out of. How did we discover this? When my wife asked, THE WOMAN ADMITTED IT!!! THIS WOMAN TOLD MY WIFE THAT EACH YEAR SHE SELECTS ONE CHILD!!! Can you believe this???

My wife would visit the class room and find Victoria sitting in the corner with her back to the class. She was not permitted to visit the bathroom as did the other children. At lunch time she would not be permitted on the play ground as were the other children..., the adverse habits of this woman goes on and on. My wife asked what Victoria had done to be punished this way. The answer..., "NOTHING, IT'S JUST MY POSITION TO PICK ONE CHILD EVERY YEAR TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF!!!!!"

We went to the Head Master of the School. HE DID NOTHING!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! He spoke to her about it and that was it. The woman WAS CRAZY but she was a member of the church that offered the school and they really didn't want to offend her!!! Kick the child around but we don't want to upset a long time member of our church..., now do we.

Victoria was in the 4th grade at this time. That year stifled and crushed her spirit so badly and left such a horrible taste in her soul that I suppose it will be a long time healing. She's now 20.

WAY TO MANY CHURCHES ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMIES!!! The only ones who can't see the damage being causing are the Stuffed Shirts convinced they are on a mission from God.

Now, what about my Grandsons temperature?

...sorry brother but YOU have fired me up over this. Churches are often their own worst enemy.

 

[David Lamb]

David, see my response above, and I have dozens more stories to tell.

I did read your "response above", but I still believe that a church is a gospel community. At least, it should be.

 

[glfredrick]

I did read your "response above", but I still believe that a church is a gospel community. At least, it should be.

My point, exactly...

But, they are not, and so the entire concept is one that few have even considered these days. "Church" is a place we attend, where we hear a message that tells us "church is not a place you attend, but you are the church." This never really sinks in because nothing further is offered to demonstrate what gospel community looks like, smells like, feels like, and acts like. If no one is doing it, and no one is teaching it, then it doesn't exist.

 

[HAMel]

Okay, I've cooled off a bit. Not much..., but a bit.

It would be foolish on my part to even begin to think that all churches and everybody in them are to be perfect. It "ain't" gonna happen.

We teach the children the following; "Red or yellow, black or white they are PRECIOUS in His sight". How precious is that now?

What cost can be put on a soul..., no matter their age, young or old? What is the "cost" of not dealing with any problem head on? Dodging the bullet is much easier? Why don't we confront the sin head on?

No, a church or a pastor cannot be perfect or expected to fix all things wrong. Speed down the highway and you get a ticket. Destroy the spirit of a young child and we don't want to offend anyone?

In my humble opinion, considering that I have never attended any seminary anywhere nor ever pastor'd a church..., the Christian Community is missing the mark! Never mind the "Religious" Community but the Christian Community is missing the mark.

Perhaps it is time to really evaluate what is going on in our churches as hind-sight is always 20 - 20. Once the old folks die off, in way too many churches, they will have to close their doors as the youth will be sleeping off the effects of Saturday nights festivities. Perhaps it's time to get back to basics.

 

[glfredrick]

Okay, I've cooled off a bit. Not much..., but a bit.

It would be foolish on my part to even begin to think that all churches and everybody in them are to be perfect. It "ain't" gonna happen.

We teach the children the following; "Red or yellow, black or white they are PRECIOUS in His sight". How precious is that now?

What cost can be put on a soul..., no matter their age, young or old? What is the "cost" of not dealing with any problem head on? Dodging the bullet is much easier? Why don't we confront the sin head on?

No, a church or a pastor cannot be perfect or expected to fix all things wrong. Speed down the highway and you get a ticket. Destroy the spirit of a young child and we don't want to offend anyone?

In my humble opinion, considering that I have never attended any seminary anywhere nor ever pastor'd a church..., the Christian Community is missing the mark! Never mind the "Religious" Community but the Christian Community is missing the mark.

Perhaps it is time to really evaluate what is going on in our churches as hind-sight is always 20 - 20. Once the old folks die off, in way too many churches, they will have to close their doors as the youth will be sleeping off the effects of Saturday nights festivities. Perhaps it's time to get back to basics.

You are, mostly, correct. When we start using terms like "always" and "never" we get into trouble, for there are otherwise examples that defeat those claims, but for the most part many congregations are not healthy and few truly know how to even approach the task of living in gospel community according to the whole counsel of God's Word.

I'm just as frustrated with that issue as you are and I've seen the same things in OH so many churches. But I have seen the other side as well, and so I know that it is possible.

One caveat I often share with my own congregation and those I counsel (just shared this in my sermon last Sunday, in fact): The moment we take our eyes off of Jesus and start looking at His people, we WILL be disapointed, for they are ALL -- every one of them -- a work in process, somewhere along the journey to sanctification and ultimately glorification.

I expect that you have fallen into the trap, as have I on occaision...

 

[matt wade]

I simply made the observation that if all your children and all your grandchildren are running wild, it probably isn't the fault of the church. If you think that raising your kids is the church's responsibility then I think we've identified part of the problem.

Our Grand Daughter provided us with a Great Grand Daughter. Ask me if we're proud of her. Go ahead, ask. Well, this child is, in our opinion, quite intelligent. At a year and a half she was speaking to us in complete sentences. She also understood/understands quite well. We are of the opinion this child is much farther along than any of the others were at her age. Time will tell.

So the other day I mentioned to my Grand Daughter (Victoria) that now is the time to begin thinking about her enrolling her child in one of our local Christian Schools. She went high and to the right and refused to even speak of it.

Why? I asked. She responded with, "...do you remember Mrs. Henderson"? Yep, and then it all came flooding back into my mind.

This "Christian Woman" who taught in a "Christian School" would select one child every year to make an example out of. How did we discover this? When my wife asked, THE WOMAN ADMITTED IT!!! THIS WOMAN TOLD MY WIFE THAT EACH YEAR SHE SELECTS ONE CHILD!!! Can you believe this???

My wife would visit the class room and find Victoria sitting in the corner with her back to the class. She was not permitted to visit the bathroom as did the other children. At lunch time she would not be permitted on the play ground as were the other children..., the adverse habits of this woman goes on and on. My wife asked what Victoria had done to be punished this way. The answer..., "NOTHING, IT'S JUST MY POSITION TO PICK ONE CHILD EVERY YEAR TO MAKE AN EXAMPLE OUT OF!!!!!"

We went to the Head Master of the School. HE DID NOTHING!!!! ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!!! He spoke to her about it and that was it. The woman WAS CRAZY but she was a member of the church that offered the school and they really didn't want to offend her!!! Kick the child around but we don't want to upset a long time member of our church..., now do we.

Victoria was in the 4th grade at this time. That year stifled and crushed her spirit so badly and left such a horrible taste in her soul that I suppose it will be a long time healing. She's now 20.

WAY TO MANY CHURCHES ARE THEIR OWN WORST ENEMIES!!! The only ones who can't see the damage being causing are the Stuffed Shirts convinced they are on a mission from God.

Now, what about my Grandsons temperature?

...sorry brother but YOU have fired me up over this. Churches are often their own worst enemy.

Nice story...still doesn't own up to any responsibility. You still blame everyone else for your children.

 

[HAMel]

Nice story...still doesn't own up to any responsibility. You still blame everyone else for your children.

"Nice story..."

A child's spirit was broken and about all you can offer up is..., "Nice Story"? And no effort of responsibility on my part?

You know Matt Wade, when I asked the Lord to save me my eyes were opened. I could see like never before. Perhaps you should try it. Really, come down off your pious pedestal and try it.

My responsibilities. As I look back over my life I think about all those things I should have done, but didn't; things I should have said, but didn't; times I should have helped, but didn't; times I should have been a bit gentler, but wasn't. What a broken man I was. There is however no way to return to yesteryear.

Nice story. Yes indeed. A nice story. Just like the Department of the Navy you shot first before asking any questions. Nice story. Yes indeed, nice story.

I wish you well.

 

[matt wade]

Nice story...still doesn't own up to any responsibility. You still blame everyone else for your children.

"Nice story..."

A child's spirit was broken and about all you can offer up is..., "Nice Story"? And no effort of responsibility on my part?

You know Matt Wade, when I asked the Lord to save me my eyes were opened. I could see like never before. Perhaps you should try it. Really, come down off your pious pedestal and try it.

My responsibilities. As I look back over my life I think about all those things I should have done, but didn't; things I should have said, but didn't; times I should have helped, but didn't; times I should have been a bit gentler, but wasn't. What a broken man I was. There is however no way to return to yesteryear.

Nice story. Yes indeed. A nice story. Just like the Department of the Navy you shot first before asking any questions. Nice story. Yes indeed, nice story.

I wish you well.

You blame the church and a school for your children's and grand-children's problems then you question my salvation. I'm sorry that you don't like what I have to say, but sometimes the truth hurts. If, instead, of blaming all your kid's problems on someone else, you owned up with a little personal responsibility, things may have turned out different.

If it makes you feel any better, I do pray that your great-grandkid (the one that is so smart) grows up smart enough to break the vicious cycle you have going on over there.

 

[HAMel]

I'm sorry that you don't like what I have to say, but sometimes the truth hurts.

"Nice story", you said. I guess this is your truth.

You have no compassion. A child was sacrificed to appease a Christian School Teacher and an effort was made to not offend the woman? It goes on more that you want to admit.

...otherwise, you're not worth the effort. Have a good life.

 

[matt wade]

I'm sorry that you don't like what I have to say, but sometimes the truth hurts.

"Nice story", you said. I guess this is your truth.

You have no compassion. A child was sacrificed to appease a Christian School Teacher and an effort was made to not offend the woman? It goes on more that you want to admit.

...otherwise, you're not worth the effort. Have a good life.

One woman at one school doing what you said isn't going to ruin a child for life. Man up, take some responsibility, take the kid out of that school. Instill a sense of self worth in the kid. Be a good role model. Tell the kid that the woman was an idiot and not to worry about her. One woman at one school treating your kid that way isn't going to emotionally scar them for the rest of their lives.

 

[David Lamb]

My point, exactly...

But, they are not, and so the entire concept is one that few have even considered these days. "Church" is a place we attend, where we hear a message that tells us "church is not a place you attend, but you are the church." This never really sinks in because nothing further is offered to demonstrate what gospel community looks like, smells like, feels like, and acts like. If no one is doing it, and no one is teaching it, then it doesn't exist.

No offence :love2: but I think your words are a sweeping generalisation. If it should be the case in some local churches that the preaching just goes as far as saying, "church is not a place you attend, but you are the church," with no explanation of what being a church member means, in terms of the responsibilities of church membership, then something is wrong with the preaching. But the same could be true whatever term is used for the body of members; if responsibilities of members are not made clear, something is sadly wrong.

In all this, I am reminded of a thread Should members give money to their church? One poster wrote (emphasis mine):

.... the reason I don't give all my offering to my church is because they are more interested in building the building bigger and less about helping the poor. I hold some of my offering and distribute it to people in need that aren't getting it from the church.....If they were more interested in the poor than building bigger and bigger buildings, they would get more.​

I replied:

I am slightly confused by the words I have highlighted. They make it seem (to me) as though you consider your church as something distinct from yourself, rather than something of which you are a member. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would find it strange to use the word "they" to refer to a local church of which I am a member.
​

 

[HAMel]

David Lamb, I can fully understand what you and glfredrick are "both" saying and can identify with each of you.

Example, I am of the opinion this Forum Board has been infected by the good old boy syndrome. An attitude of, "I think it, therefore it is", is not sound. I've been guilty of this myself until the Lord spoke to me about it. Many will tolerate outsiders but if you're not in our clique, then you don't really count.

So it is in many churches.

Pastors are not supermen! They cannot be expected to fix all things broken but they can encourage a sense of unity and awareness of the intent and purpose of a body of believers..., politics be-damned! When a woman selects one child each year to make an example out of..., for 15 years, that equates to 15 children falling victim to an uncaring individual all the while the church turned a blind eye. But that's okay to some because that experience certainly should not affect someone for many years to come.

The Word tells that when one gets saved they are ushered into the Family of God. One becomes His child. If a Child of God then why not full acceptance into the local body of believers? Church members often stifle their own growth and don't even realize it for the sake of the good old boy mentality.

Do I pretend to have the answer? Not hardly but I do believe that way too many local churches are their own worst enemy all the while refusing to take a good hard look in the mirror.

 

[12strings]

Not hardly but I do believe that way too many local churches are their own worst enemy all the while refusing to take a good hard look in the mirror.

I would agree that many churches are very unhealthy, such that in our Southern Indiana County there are many, many churches...but we have had several new members who have come to our church after visiting lots of others, and they just say the churches are in sad shape. Our church is far from perfect, but We are blessed with pastor who is seeking to be Gospel-centered, welcoming to hurting people, and with many people who seek to be the same. One couple even drove an hour to a larger city for about 2 years just to find what they considered a good church, before giving our church a try, now they are fitting in well.

I think the only way this situation will be solved long term is for the committed Christians to either stand up and work to change their church's cultures, OR...for the committed christians to slowly trickle into the fewer decent churches. That's what I see happening right now, which you could say is not the best solution...but there are so many dis-functinal churches out their run by small groups of relatives or close friends with a Power-keeping agenda...that I think some of these chuches just need to die off.