Gospel Nonconformity Is Essential!

[Scripture More Accurately]

Let's just pray you don't fill a pulpit anywhere.

You will give an account to Christ some day for these idle words that do not have anything to do with the subject of my thread and uselessly waste one of the total number of comments allotted for this thread.

You are wrong. The command not to be conformed is distinct from the command to be transformed. Both are essential.

 

[Aaron]

You will give an account to Christ some day for these idle words that do not have anything to do with the subject of my thread and uselessly waste one of the total number of comments allotted for this thread.

You are wrong. The command not to be conformed is distinct from the command to be transformed. Both are essential.

*sigh* Paul was right. It takes the patience of a saint to instruct one who opposes himself.

Pray tell, O Scriptural one, how a transformed individual with a renewed mind stays conformed to the world?

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

*sigh* Paul was right. It takes the patience of a saint to instruct one who opposes himself.

Pray tell, O Scriptural one, how a transformed individual with a renewed mind stays conformed to the world?

To understand why you are wrong, consider the difference between the following:

This is what the Holy Spirit inspired:

Rom.12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

According to what you teach, in effect, this is what your teaching implies about what should have been said:

Rom.12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

*2 And be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God [text modified according to the wisdom of Aaron]."

By what you say, the inspired words "be not conformed to this world: but" are essentially meaningless, superfluous words that can be disregarded because all that matters is that we be transformed. Your teaching in effect is that being transformed is to take place and can take place without the obedience that the command to not be conformed to the world requires.

You are wrong. You are on very dangerous grounds. You are not wiser than God. Those words are not superfluous words.

Those words are an essential command from our infinite God. They must be obeyed. No one will be transformed who disregards what God has explicitly said.

Change your mind and honor God by acknowledging that He is right and you are wrong.

 

[DaveXR650]

One of the worst things about being extremely precise in your theology is that you may sometimes miss something God has to say to you for your benefit because you have first filtered it through your theological lens. Jonathan Edwards, on writing about the perseverance of the saints, said that the dire warnings about the dangers of not persevering are designed as part of the means of helping a real saint, who is eternally secure, to stay on the right path and persevere. To read Edwards on this, and then say you don't have to listen to those warnings because a believer is eternally secure misses the VALUE of this teaching in the life of the individual believer no matter where you stand in your theology. You can easily see how this would apply to the above.

One thing I like about the Puritan writers is that even though most of them were staunch Calvinists and had signed off on all the tenets of it officially - when it came to preaching or teaching were quick to warn you that if the Bible says something then you do it. You can filter things through a theological lens to some extent but be careful. If the Bible says be not conformed to the world then do that, with all your own will and with much prayer. You will not offend the Holy Spirit or Calvin by simply obeying a clear scriptural teaching.

 

[percho]

One of the worst things about being extremely precise in your theology is that you may sometimes miss something God has to say to you for your benefit because you have first filtered it through your theological lens. Jonathan Edwards, on writing about the perseverance of the saints, said that the dire warnings about the dangers of not persevering are designed as part of the means of helping a real saint, who is eternally secure, to stay on the right path and persevere. To read Edwards on this, and then say you don't have to listen to those warnings because a believer is eternally secure misses the VALUE of this teaching in the life of the individual believer no matter where you stand in your theology. You can easily see how this would apply to the above.

One thing I like about the Puritan writers is that even though most of them were staunch Calvinists and had signed off on all the tenets of it officially - when it came to preaching or teaching were quick to warn you that if the Bible says something then you do it. You can filter things through a theological lens to some extent but be careful. If the Bible says be not conformed to the world then do that, with all your own will and with much prayer. You will not offend the Holy Spirit or Calvin by simply obeying a clear scriptural teaching.

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I believe that is with us unto the coming of the Lord.
Yet:
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:17,18

 

[Aaron]

To understand why you are wrong, consider the difference between the following:

This is what the Holy Spirit inspired:

Rom.12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

___________________________________________________________________________________________

According to what you teach, in effect, this is what your teaching implies about what should have been said:

Rom.12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

*2 And be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God [text modified according to the wisdom of Aaron]."

By what you say, the inspired words "be not conformed to this world: but" are essentially meaningless, superfluous words that can be disregarded because all that matters is that we be transformed. Your teaching in effect is that being transformed is to take place and can take place without the obedience that the command to not be conformed to the world requires.

You are wrong. You are on very dangerous grounds. You are not wiser than God. Those words are not superfluous words.

Those words are an essential command from our infinite God. They must be obeyed. No one will be transformed who disregards what God has explicitly said.

Change your mind and honor God by acknowledging that He is right and you are wrong.

Maybe you could try answering the question I posed to you.

 

[Aaron]

For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

I believe that is with us unto the coming of the Lord.
Yet:
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:17,18

Galatians 5:16 KJV — This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

Maybe you could try answering the question I posed to you.

Your question appears to be based on a serious mishandling of Romans 12:1-2:

12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

The commands in Rom. 12:2 are commands from God to Christians.

No one is automatically "a transformed individual with a redeemed mind" instantaneously at the moment of salvation--otherwise, there would be no need to command brethren not to be conformed and to be transformed.

Furthermore, the imperatives in Rom. 12:2 are present tense imperatives that signify that God commands Christians continually to do these things.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

You will not offend the Holy Spirit or Calvin by simply obeying a clear scriptural teaching.

I love that! Absolutely right!

 

[kyredneck]

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Gal 5:17,18

Galatians 5:16 KJV — This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Gal 5

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

25 If we live by the Spirit, by the Spirit let us also walk. Gal 5

Those who live by the Spirit and walk by Him will heed everything that He has said in His Word. They will be diligently obedient to His command not to be conformed to this world.

Because God has commanded us not to be conformed to this world, we have to do so as He energizes us both to be willing and to be doing His good pleasure (Philip. 2:13).

 

[KenH]

"Satan suggests that here is pleasure to be enjoyed; the temptation is presented with a smiling aspect and an enticing voice: 'What, are you so dull and phlegmatic as not to feel the powerful charms of pleasure? Who can withhold himself from such delights?' Reader, you may be rescued from the danger of such temptations by repelling the proposal of pleasure. It is urged that the commission of sin will afford you pleasure. Suppose this were true, will the accusing and condemning rebukes of conscience and the flannel of hell be pleasant too? Is there pleasure in the scourges of conscience? If so, why did Peter weep so bitterly? Why did David cry out of broken bones? You hear what is said of the pleasure of sin, and have you not read what David said of the effects of it? "Thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore; there is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger, neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin," &c. If you yield to temptation, you must feel such inward distress on account of it, or the miseries of hell. But why should the pretended pleasure of sin allure you, when you know that unspeakably more real pleasure will arise from the mortification than can arise from the commission of sin. Will you prefer the gratification of some unhallowed passion, with the deadly poison which it will leave behind, to that sacred pleasure which arises from hearing and obeying God, complying with the dictates of conscience, and maintaining inward peace?"

- from John Flavel's On Keeping the Heart, Chapter 11

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

"Satan suggests that here is pleasure to be enjoyed; the temptation is presented with a smiling aspect and an enticing voice: 'What, are you so dull and phlegmatic as not to feel the powerful charms of pleasure? Who can withhold himself from such delights?' Reader, you may be rescued from the danger of such temptations by repelling the proposal of pleasure. It is urged that the commission of sin will afford you pleasure. Suppose this were true, will the accusing and condemning rebukes of conscience and the flannel of hell be pleasant too? Is there pleasure in the scourges of conscience? If so, why did Peter weep so bitterly? Why did David cry out of broken bones? You hear what is said of the pleasure of sin, and have you not read what David said of the effects of it? "Thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore; there is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger, neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin," &c. If you yield to temptation, you must feel such inward distress on account of it, or the miseries of hell. But why should the pretended pleasure of sin allure you, when you know that unspeakably more real pleasure will arise from the mortification than can arise from the commission of sin. Will you prefer the gratification of some unhallowed passion, with the deadly poison which it will leave behind, to that sacred pleasure which arises from hearing and obeying God, complying with the dictates of conscience, and maintaining inward peace?"

- from John Flavel's On Keeping the Heart, Chapter 11

This reminds me of what Scripture tells us about Moses:

Heb. 11:24 By faith Moses, when he was come to years, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter;

25 Choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God, than to enjoy the pleasures of sin for a season;

26 Esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt: for he had respect unto the recompence of the reward.

Moses had to make a choice not to be conformed to the pleasure-seeking ways of the Egyptians that were sinful; the Spirit did not make the choice for him--he had to make that choice.

Similarly, Spirit-filled Christians have to obey God's command not to be conformed--such nonconformity is not something that the Spirit will just "zap" them with if they walk in the Spirit and are led by Him. We are going to have to choose to obey.

 

[KenH]

Similarly, Spirit-filled Christians have to obey God's command not to be conformed--such nonconformity is not something that the Spirit will just "zap" them with if they walk in the Spirit and are led by Him. We are going to have to choose to obey.

And yet only as God directs.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (emphasis mine)

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

And yet only as God directs.

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (emphasis mine)

Yes, when we are properly yielded to Him (Rom. 12:1), God will always direct us in the paths of obedience to His commands (Rom. 12:2). He will not deny Himself or anything that He has said.

Notice that preceding Philip. 2:13, Paul commands believers to work out their own salvation:

Philip. 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Neither Paul nor any other Bible writer teaches that people work in order to be saved; they all teach that those who are saved must work out their salvation to its fullest expression and its intended ends in their renewed lives.

 

[KenH]

:

they all teach that those who are saved must work out their salvation to its fullest expression and its intended ends in their renewed lives.

God only does so in such as way so that ALL of the glory goes to Him and none to the creature.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (emphasis mine)

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

:

Yes, but God only does so in such as way so that ALL of the glory goes to Him and none to the creature.

Romans 9:22-24 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: and that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (emphasis mine)

Yes, you have already made that point multiple times, and no one has disputed that point. There is no need for you to keep repeating something that no one has questioned or disputed.

Your doing so uses up more of the maximum number of comments allowed in this thread. Please refrain from making this point again.

 

[KenH]

Yes, you have already made that point multiple times, and no one has disputed that point. There is no need for you to keep repeating something that no one has questioned or disputed.

Your doing so uses up more of the maximum number of comments allowed in this thread. Please refrain from making this point again.

For the same reason the gospel is repeated in sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon...

We are forgetful creatures and we need to be constantly reminded of things - build up "muscle memory" in our brains, if you will.

As the hymn says,

"I love to tell the story;
For those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting
To hear it like the rest."

I have no interest in some new thing or some new program or some new technique. Just give me the old story. It is sufficient.

 

[Scripture More Accurately]

For the same reason the gospel is repeated in sermon after sermon after sermon after sermon...

We are forgetful creatures and we need to be constantly reminded of things - build up "muscle memory" in our brains, if you will.

As the hymn says,

"I love to tell the story;
For those who know it best
Seem hungering and thirsting
To hear it like the rest."

I have no interest in some new thing or some new program or some new technique. Just give me the old story. It is sufficient.

In the context of a discussion board, where the number of comments is limited, it is not helpful for you to keep repeating something that does not advance the discussion. The point of this thread is not who gets the glory; it is what we must do in obedience to God so that He gets the glory that He deserves, desires, and demands from our renewed lives.

 

[KenH]

In the context of a discussion board, where the number of comments is limited

1) Then why do you keep replying and using up "number of comments"? If you stopped replying, then I wouldn't be replying to your reply.

2) If comments fill up on a thread, then another thread, usually designated with a (2) with a title of the same name can be started.