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Gospel regeneration, is it biblical? Yes? No?
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Prior to Gen 15:6, was Abraham bound for hell?
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No.
However, he was not bound for Heaven either.
Of course my belief runs along the lines of man did not enter Heaven...until their sin had been atoned for.
So, I believe Abraham was headed for sheol, or hades, the greek equivalent.
No-one goes to Hell until the Great White Throne.
God bless.
I'll rephrase the question:
Prior to Gen 15:6, was Abraham unregenerate?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Don't here "time salvation" discussed down here in the low country. I have heard it discussed back home and thought briefly about it on occasion but not much.
I believe he was, yes. But then, I do not view man as being reborn until after their sins were atoned for (the Cross) and the Holy Spirit was given (Pentecost).
Now, if you ask me do I believe that there was a potential for Abraham receiving eternal judgment, I will say no.
Please stop asking me questions and trying to force me to guess what you are talking about. Just tell me what salvation means to you and what this "time" salvation is.
Those things were written beforehand for our examples:
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4
Do you think Christ was implementing something new here, or was He revealing a mystery from of old, something that had always been?:
.....It behoveth you to be born from above; the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit. Jn 3:7,8
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With the exception of the last part of this statement, "and thereby go to heaven," would we think it conceivable that a man could believe the Gospel except he hear it?
I believe there will be those in heaven that have not been given the opportunity to hear, or read, the Gospel, such as those that die very young, and those mentally impaired, for example, but I am intrigued by the debate that is going on here.
I would just like to, for your consideration, comment on this statement given as a link in a previous post in this thread:
Let me first say that I am a firm believer that salvation is wholly the work of God. Man, I believe, is incapable apart from the ministry of the Holy Spirit to understand that he is a sinner headed for eternal judgment and in need of the righteousness of Christ. If he could understand that in reality...every man would turn to God in repentance. If man could grasp a destiny of eternal separation...he would repent.
Concerning this statement, I do not see God using the message of the Gospel as equating to man's participation in salvation.
2. Christ is not the only mediator between God and man [1 Tim 2:5] because the 'soul winner' is the mediator between Christ and man.
Concerning salvation, we understand that God does not need man to bestow blessings.
Galatians 3:20
King James Version (KJV)
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
God did not need Abraham's signature to either make promise nor to fulfill it, and apart from the Covenant of Law, which stands apart from all other Covenants, it is God that promises and God alone that delivers on that promise.
If we look at Christ being the only Mediator between God and man, we can see that deals with the actual power (which I have noted you have stressed) which brings about man's salvation, but we do not overlook the fact that God utilizes those He has gifted for the express purpose of mediation, so to speak, and that is delivering the Gospel to men.
Why would we need to conclude this? He has always gone where He wills, and there is no place that He is restricted from, including the unregenerate heart. Under the Covenant of Law, He worked in the hearts of men, but...at this point the Gospel was as of yet undefined in the hearts of men, due to the fact that Chrisat had as of yet not died, nor had the Comforter been given.
And while I agree that God can save apart from the Gospel, that is not the impression we are given in scripture. In fact, God has used men to convey His will to men for quite some time.
Hebrews 1
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Does that mean that Christ must speak individually to every man in an audible voice? No. While I do believe he speaks to each individually, the writer here gives the impression that what Christ has spoken is compared to that which the prophets spoke, meaning, an audible message delivered to us. At the time of this writing, that which was spoken by the prophets had been committed to the written word, so we can see a parallel today as we sit here typing.
While I would agree with the heart of the argument set forth, I do not think we can divorce the spoken message of the Gospel from the written message of the Gospel from the work of the Holy Spirit in ministry to man today.
Unless a man hear or read the Gospel message, he has not Christ in which to express his belief to.
Okay, just a few thoughts to stir up conversation.
God bless.
And when is the promise fulfilled? That is the question to answer.
While we see partial fulfillment at times, such as in this case, Israel taking the land in conquest, we do not view that as "Well, game over...what next?"
Isaac was a child of promise, fulfilling that which God said,
Genesis 15
4And, behold, the word of the LORD came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
Does the birth of Isaac fulfill the promise of God? Well, yes...and no. There is more to be revealed at this point.
The contrast is between the two covenants, the Covenant of Law, and the New Covenant.
The New Covenant brings God's promises Abraham to a point of fulfillment which God had in mind, yet did not reveal to Abraham.
Yes, actually to both. Was it new in the sense of " a new plan" or will of God...no.
Is it new in the sense that it has not been in existance before...yes.
So show me someone in the Old Testament where a man was born again. That he had complete atonement for sin.
That's all I ask.
If you can do that, we can throw Hebrews out.
Sorry, but have to fly, time to leave for the evening service.
God bless.
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The types given in the scriptures beautifully illustrate the distinction between the eternal and timely aspects of our salvation:
“For our passover also hath been sacrificed, even Christ” [1 Cor 5:7].
On that dreadful night in the land of Egypt it was the father who slew the lamb and applied the blood, the firstborn was passive. The faith of the firstborn had nothing to do about whether the blood worked or not [eternal salvation]. The firstborn's faith in the blood would have everything to do with how they rested that night, or any joy that was to be had for that redemption [(temporal) gospel salvation].
Most that were redeemed out of Egypt, the land of bondage, were refused entrance into Canaan, the sabbath rest of God, because of their unbelief, Moses and Aaron included. They were totally passive in their redemption from the land of bondage, but by their unbelief they were responsible for the toil and weariness of wandering in the wilderness for the remainder of their lives, and for being denied entrance into the land of milk & honey. It required their faith to enter into God's rest, their faith had nothing to do with their redemption from Egypt.
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._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
The preached word is the normal means God uses....this allows for the unusual....
The preached word is the normal means God uses....this allows for the unusual....
I agreed until you stated, "It required their faith to enter into God's rest..."
I don't think it was faith - rather obedience and submission.
Moses did not obey. The Israelite nation was not submissive.
I am confused. How does this relate to what kyredneck is saying about timely salvation?
Am I just dense?
for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves; in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2:13-15
You think it conceivable that Gentiles that had not the law, had not heard the law, could have that law supernaturally written upon their hearts? That these same Gentiles, referred to as 'doers of the law', did so by nature because of the spiritual birth?
I believe hearing the gospel is not, and never has been a necessity to obtain the free gift of eternal life. To sit under the preaching of the gospel is a most marvelous privilege that God has provided for our ongoing salvation throughout this life.
You missed the point of the statement, ref Jn 1:13:
“who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
If one holds to gospel means regeneration then it requires the will of others to carry that gospel to them in order for them to be born from above. The passage gives a clear threefold denial of any participation on the part of man with the spiritual birth, it is totally of God. Man is totally passive in regeneration.
Don't misconstrue my argument for immediate regeneration as belittling or disparagement of the preaching of the gospel. The primacy of the preaching of the gospel is the centerpiece of Primitive Baptist worship and practice:
for the word of the cross to those indeed perishing is foolishness, and to us -- those being saved -- it is the power of God, 1 Cor 1:18
Those holding to gospel means regeneration and confusing the word saved (sozo) as being synonymous with regeneration, consider salvation to be a 'one time event'. It is not. Regeneration is a one time event. Salvation is an ongoing affair throughout the believer's life, and the preaching of the gospel is an integral part of that ongoing salvation. Thus Paul's exhortation to Timothy:
Take heed to thyself, and to thy teaching. Continue in these things; for in doing this thou shalt save both thyself and them that hear thee. 1 Tim 4:16
And it is within our ability to make shipwreck of that salvation:
......to present you holy and without blemish and unreproveable before him: if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, Col 1:22,23
Behold then the goodness and severity of God: toward them that fell, severity; but toward thee, God`s goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Ro 11:22
Now I make known unto you brethren, the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye received, wherein also ye stand, by which also ye are saved, if ye hold fast the word which I preached unto you, except ye believed in vain. 1 Cor 15:1,2
but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end...... for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: Heb 3:6,14
But, as demonstrated in 1 Cor 5:5, our eternal standing with Him will never change. (1 Cor 5:5 is one of the few places where sozo is clearly used in the eternal sense)
if we are faithless, he abideth faithful; for he cannot deny himself. 2 Tim 2:13
1. God does regenerate apart from the gospel. Period.
2. He saves His lost sheep into the kingdom of His dear Son through the preaching of the gospel.
These two are not the same thing.
I couldn't agree more. The gospel produces hope (read anticipation), and this hope saves us:
24 For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth?
25 But if we hope for that which we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Ro 8
You write well. I enjoy your posts.
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AmyG
I am just showing that sometimes God can regenerate someone who cannot hear or understand the word preached....he is sovereign. earlier in the read they were saying a person could not be saved unless they hear and believe.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:...not sure yet,lol:wavey:
i do not think so though...good posts this year!
Are you able to make the connection between “the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother”(Gal 4:26), with “it behoveth you to be born from above”?
Are you able to make the connection between the children of the heavenly Zion in Ps 87, with “more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband” ( Isa 54:1; Gal 4:27)?
Isaac, as we, was born from above. He had the same mother as we.
`Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know! Jn 3:10
I don't think Christ chided Nicodemus for not knowing something that hadn't come to pass yet.
All of His saints, old and new, were children of the heavenly Zion.
John the Baptist was filled with the Spirit from his mother's womb, David was made to hope while on his mother's breast, Isaac was born after the Spirit by the time of his weaning. Ps 87 tells of the children of Zion in many nations. Isa 54 speaks of the multitude of those outside the Mosaic Covenant. All these were born from above.
And I refuse to throw Hebrews out.
