Grace and discipleship

[The Archangel]

This message frustrates grace if works are required for salvation, or is quite confusing if the result of salvation is the requirement for works. Are we created to do good works? Of course. Will this happen in every instance? No, just look at the thief on the cross. What good works did he do besides put His faith in Christ?

The message does not frustrate grace. Works are not required for salvation. Works will be the result of salvation, as you said yourself--we are created to do good works.

Certainly, a death-bed conversion will be different, as the thief on the cross is too.

The point is this: If you are truly converted and you are given a span of time after your conversion you will as a Christian, by definition, produce good works. If you don't produce good works, it certainly gives everyone pause to consider if you are truly saved or not.

Blessings,

The Archangel

 

[webdog]

The point is this: If you are truly converted and you are given a span of time after your conversion you will as a Christian, by definition, produce good works.

What's the span of time, though? My wife was saved in 2000, when I was not walking with the Lord. Without my guidance and encouragement, she soon after walked away from the Lord as I did. She has since rededicated her life in 2004, but she did not "produce fruit" for more than a couple weeks / months after her converson (and for those who doubt her conversion, she was saved then)

If you don't produce good works, it certainly gives everyone pause to consider if you are truly saved or not.

This I can agree with. However, both arminians and calvinists state Scripture says they either lost their salvation, or were never saved to begin with. I know you hold to reformed theology, so I do not know to what extent you believe this.

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

If you examine the "whole-Bible context" you will see, repeatedly, that proper living is required as a result of salvation/conversion.

Notice the key phrase here . . . proper living is "required" as a result of salvation. OF COURSE IT IS. However just because something is a "requirement" doesn't mean it's going to get done. I require my son to obey me every time I tell him to do something. Does that mean he does? Of course not.

If my son never obeyed a single thing I told him to do would he stop being my son? Of course not.

We are children of God and that NEVER changes regardless of what we do or what we "don't" do.

First off, you quote Acts 16:30-31. You say believing on Christ is required for salvation. That is very true.

First of all "I" don't say anything. Scripture says believe and you will be saved. That is Scripture speaking not me. And it is the ONLY thing that is required or again Paul was lying to this man. He didn't add anything else and he didn't qualify it by saying if you don't produce fruit then you really didn't believe in the first place.

James, for instance, says that "faith without works is dead." This passage is a clear indication that a proper faith in Christ will, by definition, be recognizable by the fruits of one's life.

Context, context, context.

Acts 16:30-31 and Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that salvation comes from a one-time faith, not an on-going faith. However James addresses "saved" people. And as such their "faith" unto everlasting life is NOT in view. He is talking about sanctifying faith.

You are mixing contexts.

It is no coincidence that Jesus Himself said "You will know them by their fruits." How a person lives shows what they believe. This is basic to Christianity.

Notice again the key phrase . . . this is basic to "Christianity". What is "Christianity", but being Christ-like. This is speaking of the way we live. Again we can tell where folks are "disciples" or not by the way they are living, but there is NOTHING that can tell us whether a person has believed on the Lord Jesus or not.

Again just because someone believed on the Lord Jesus doesn't mean they are going to follow in discipleship.

It will be that, over time, a true Christian will demonstrate their faith in Christ by how they live.

Of course they will. Once again a "Christian" has to do with lifestyle/discipleship and a "true Christian" will live a Christian life, but not all believers are "Christians".

But, Paul also, in every instance, preaches living a proper life as a disciple as a result of conversion.

Nowhere does Paul preach this as a guarantee. Again if this was a guarantee one would not need to tell us to live right. We just would.

Salvation/conversion is not the end of the battle; it is just the beginning.

ABSOLUTELY agree with you!!! However not everyone is going to get into the battle. There are many that are perfectly okay with sitting on the sidelines, because you don't get hurt and there is no cost (at least they think) in being a hearer of the Word and not a doer!

 

[The Archangel]

Notice the key phrase here . . . proper living is "required" as a result of salvation. OF COURSE IT IS. However just because something is a "requirement" doesn't mean it's going to get done. I require my son to obey me every time I tell him to do something. Does that mean he does? Of course not.

If my son never obeyed a single thing I told him to do would he stop being my son? Of course not.

We are children of God and that NEVER changes regardless of what we do or what we "don't" do.

First of all "I" don't say anything. Scripture says believe and you will be saved. That is Scripture speaking not me. And it is the ONLY thing that is required or again Paul was lying to this man. He didn't add anything else and he didn't qualify it by saying if you don't produce fruit then you really didn't believe in the first place.

Context, context, context.

Acts 16:30-31 and Eph. 2:8-9 tell us that salvation comes from a one-time faith, not an on-going faith. However James addresses "saved" people. And as such their "faith" unto everlasting life is NOT in view. He is talking about sanctifying faith.

You are mixing contexts.

Notice again the key phrase . . . this is basic to "Christianity". What is "Christianity", but being Christ-like. This is speaking of the way we live. Again we can tell where folks are "disciples" or not by the way they are living, but there is NOTHING that can tell us whether a person has believed on the Lord Jesus or not.

Again just because someone believed on the Lord Jesus doesn't mean they are going to follow in discipleship.


Of course they will. Once again a "Christian" has to do with lifestyle/discipleship and a "true Christian" will live a Christian life, but not all believers are "Christians".

Nowhere does Paul preach this as a guarantee. Again if this was a guarantee one would not need to tell us to live right. We just would.

ABSOLUTELY agree with you!!! However not everyone is going to get into the battle. There are many that are perfectly okay with sitting on the sidelines, because you don't get hurt and there is no cost (at least they think) in being a hearer of the Word and not a doer!

Believing and living as a disciple are part-and-parcel. Certainly we are justified and undergo progressive sanctification. But it is God that does both. Therefore, both will be there.

This you will have to explain:

Of course they will. Once again a "Christian" has to do with lifestyle/discipleship and a "true Christian" will live a Christian life, but not all believers are "Christians".

You said this:

Notice the key phrase here . . . proper living is "required" as a result of salvation. OF COURSE IT IS. However just because something is a "requirement" doesn't mean it's going to get done. I require my son to obey me every time I tell him to do something. Does that mean he does? Of course not.

This is just silly. Things like belief and the subsequent derivative good works are required. IF the requirement is not me, there are consequences. If you don't believe, you go to hell. If you don't do good works (IE. your life does not represent that you have faith and that you have repented), you may not be a believer--as evidenced by your fruits. That too results in hell, not because you didn't do good works, but because you were never a believer to begin with--and that is evidenced not doing the requisite good works.

Later,

The Archangel

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

Believing and living as a disciple are part-and-parcel.

Again this statement is absolutely true! Without faith it is impossible to please God. However there is a one-time believe/faith and then there is a progressive/on-going faith/believe.

You are mixing the two different types. One is for everlasting life and one is for sanctification.

Again context is the key!

Therefore, both will be there.

Well if that is true then why does Paul make this statement?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those are not "indicitive" verbs meaning certainty, but rather subjunctive verbs meaning possibility. Why would Paul say this is a possibility and his desire if it was a guarantee to happen?

This you will have to explain:


Quote:
Of course they will. Once again a "Christian" has to do with lifestyle/discipleship and a "true Christian" will live a Christian life, but not all believers are "Christians".

All Christians possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not Christians.

All disciples possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not disciples.

This is just silly.

Well I was just repeating your statement .

but because you were never a believer to begin with

Those are "your" words and "not" the words of Scripture. So are we to believe you or Scripture?

I have already given you a text that says "disciples" stopped following Christ, and nowhere does it say they weren't "really saved" or that they lost their salvation. So neither of these two false ideas are taught in Scripture.

Again good works are "commanded" of us. If we were "going" to do good works we wouldn't have to be "commanded" to do them. Again we don't go around commanding each other to breath. Because without outside influences that's exactly what we are going to do whether we're told to or not.

 

[The Archangel]

Again this statement is absolutely true! Without faith it is impossible to please God. However there is a one-time believe/faith and then there is a progressive/on-going faith/believe.

You are mixing the two different types. One is for everlasting life and one is for sanctification.

No. There are not two different types. The Bible never speaks of two "faiths." In fact, Jude 3 speaks of "The faith, once for all delivered to the saints."

You argue:

I have already given you a text that says "disciples" stopped following Christ, and nowhere does it say they weren't "really saved" or that they lost their salvation. So neither of these two false ideas are taught in Scripture.

But, this is based an a false assumption. The text, by saying they stopped following Christ is saying they were not true believers.

Well if that is true then why does Paul make this statement?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those are not "indicitive" verbs meaning certainty, but rather subjunctive verbs meaning possibility. Why would Paul say this is a possibility and his desire if it was a guarantee to happen?

I'll have to do a bit more research to answer this properly. My suspicion is that it is related to a certain class of condition. Whatever the case, it is clear what Paul wants them to do--to live rightly.

All Christians possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not Christians.

All disciples possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not disciples

.

So, are you saying that people who are not Christians are going to be saved? Or am I misunderstanding your statement.

Because, and this is really important, if you are saying that people can/will be saved without being Christians, you are committing and promulgating a grave heresy.

Those are "your" words and "not" the words of Scripture. So are we to believe you or Scripture?

Ah, the strawman argument. You have yet to convincingly show where my statements and scripture are not the same.

Again good works are "commanded" of us. If we were "going" to do good works we wouldn't have to be "commanded" to do them. Again we don't go around commanding each other to breath. Because without outside influences that's exactly what we are going to do whether we're told to or not.

But, as sinners...or now redeemed sinners, we do not, by nature, always do good, do we? Your analogy is flawed because it assumes we, by nature, always do what is right. And, even as believers, we don't.

The Archangel

 

[Revmitchell]

Again this statement is absolutely true! Without faith it is impossible to please God. However there is a one-time believe/faith and then there is a progressive/on-going faith/believe.

You are mixing the two different types. One is for everlasting life and one is for sanctification.

Again context is the key!

Well if that is true then why does Paul make this statement?

Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Those are not "indicitive" verbs meaning certainty, but rather subjunctive verbs meaning possibility. Why would Paul say this is a possibility and his desire if it was a guarantee to happen?


All Christians possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not Christians.

All disciples possess everlasting life, but all possessors of everlasting life are not disciples.

Well I was just repeating your statement .

Those are "your" words and "not" the words of Scripture. So are we to believe you or Scripture?

I have already given you a text that says "disciples" stopped following Christ, and nowhere does it say they weren't "really saved" or that they lost their salvation. So neither of these two false ideas are taught in Scripture.

Again good works are "commanded" of us. If we were "going" to do good works we wouldn't have to be "commanded" to do them. Again we don't go around commanding each other to breath. Because without outside influences that's exactly what we are going to do whether we're told to or not.

Jason Jump once again your logic is clearly flawed.

 

[Amy.G]

Jason Jump once again your logic is clearly flawed.

Again??

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

No. There are not two different types.

Well I'm sorry, but Scripture disagrees with you. There is an aorist, active, imparitive (Acts 16:30-31), which is also described in Eph. 2:8-9 as a perfect, passive, participle (this is actually the verb saved, but the salvation is based on the faith - saved is a completed action so therefore the beleiving would be completed as well).

Then throughout the gospels we see a "present, active, participle" believe, which is a continuing faith.

But, this is based an a false assumption.

A false assumption in what? I'm repeating what the text says. You are the one making the assumption in that these folks weren't "really believers" in the first place. Sorry, but that's NOT what the text says. The text says they were disciples. So we can either believe that and conform our beliefs to it or we can ignore it and continue to believe what we believe in spite of what Scripture says.

Again either the authors are lying or they were telilng the truth. I happen to believe they were telling the truth and as such they don't say what you are saying.

it is clear what Paul wants them to do--to live rightly.

Again I absolutley agree. But having a desire for someone to do something and them actually doing it is two totally different things. God desires for us to conform to the image of His Son and to have our minds renewed and for us to live as living sacrifices and to be fruit producers, etc., etc., etc. However just because God "desires" something doesn't mean it's going to come to be.

So, are you saying that people who are not Christians are going to be saved? Or am I misunderstanding your statement.

Yes you are misunderstanding my statement.

Modern day religion has taken a number of Biblical words and assigned to them non-Biblical meanings. "Christian" is one of those words. In Scripture a "Christian" was a person that was living in a Christ-like way.

However today "Christian" means anyone that is saved regardless of lifestyle.

That's why I said all "Christians" (those living Christ-like) are possessors of everlasting life, but not all folks who possess everlasting life are "Christians" (living a Christ-like life).

Hope that clarifies a bit.

Your analogy is flawed because it assumes we, by nature, always do what is right.

That's EXACTLY what you and others are assuming. You are assuming just because we are saved that while we will not live a perfect life we will live a life of obedience and faithfulness. However that is not the case. It is not our nature to do that. We still have the old nature that is warring with our spirits.

That is why we are told not to live according to the flesh, because that is a "real" possibility. But instead we are to walk according to the Spirit. However that is a day-by-day, moment-by-moment decision that we must make.

And there are some folks that rarely make the right decision, because they just aren't interested. It doesn't have anything do with whether they believed on the Lord Jesus or not. It has to do with whether or not they are willing to pay the price that is required to be a disciple. Some just aren't willing to pay that price.

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

Jason Jump once again your logic is clearly flawed.

Excuse me? What in the world are you talking about?

 

[webdog]

Jason Jump once again your logic is clearly flawed.

He hasn't brought up "baptist purgatory" (ME) yet, so I'm not so sure. One can hold to this understanding of justification and sanctification without taking it to the heretical side of soteriology known as Millenial Exclusion.

 

[skypair]

I believe that those who have been justified by grace must also take up their cross and follow Christ.

I think to believe that men can have justification without discipleship is cheap grace.

We must believe AND obey.

I don't want to suggest that I think I have arrived in my theology. If I am missing it here, somebody help.

That is a common error among those who think that belief and faith don't transmit the WILL to do what God commands.

MUST = legalism, nunatak. Many people doubt their own salvation because they do not feel the will to "follow," as you say. That is a totally spiritual conviction of the Holy Spirit and if you have truly trusted in Christ, it is a plea to God, "God, I believe, HELP THOU MY UNBELIEF!" Mk 9:24

Many of us sit through sermons on Sunday questioning whether what the preacher said is truly what God says. Should I tithe? Am I to "evangelize the world?" Are you calling me to preach? We ALL need to pray as that father did -- "help my unbelief."

And BTW, it's a question we all ought to ask ourselves but NOT judge others with.

Eleven disciples didn't know how to heal that father's son. They needed to know HOW, right? God, help thou MY (skypair's) unbelief!! raying:

skypair

 

[standingfirminChrist]

I notice your profile says WBC for Church, HisWordisTruth.

Are you quite sure you don't know Jason Jump? After all, his Church was Woodridge Baptist Church. Same initials.

 

[webdog]

I think he has been ratted out. What, isn't this the second time in so many months he has come back here?

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

I notice your profile says WBC for Church, HisWordisTruth.

And your point is? Oh yeah you want to accuse me of being someone because our church's initials are the same :laugh:.

Do any of you have "real" proof to back up your claims? Who is this Jason Jump character and why is he so despised around here?

 

[standingfirminChrist]

And your point is? Oh yeah you want to accuse me of being someone because our church's initials are the same :laugh:.

Do any of you have "real" proof to back up your claims? Who is this Jason Jump character and why is he so despised around here?

HisWordIsTruth,

What is your stance on the saved at the judgment seat of Christ? Do you believe some of the saved will be cast into outer darkness?

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

What is your stance on the saved at the judgment seat of Christ? Do you believe some of the saved will be cast into outer darkness?

You answer my question. What "real" proof do you have to back up your accusations?

 

[Revmitchell]

Let's see, the last time he was here he was:

Seekinghistruth from South America

This time he is :

Hiswordistruth and he is from America


Could be just me but the similarities are strangely coincidental. Top that off with the same tone in his posts. And an avoidance of questions asked that wil incriminate him.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

Same evasive tactics used by other poster.

 

[HisWordIsTruth]

Let's see, the last time he was here he was:

Seekinghistruth from South America

Boy you really don't have any "real" proof do you. Go back and look at a post by Seekinghistruth. It's says he is from the USA NOT South America.

Where is the "real" proof? Is this what this board is all about? Folks making accusations without having to "prove" anything.

Now revmitchell why don't you just show me how I'm mistaken and have a "civil" discussion. Is that possible?