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Grace goes against the grain

Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by GH, Jul 14, 2002.

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  1. Star

    Star New Member

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    Don said,

    Yet I'm reminded of what an old wise man once told me: "If you don't stand on something, you'll fall for anything."

    I say,

    And as a wise man once told me, "I determine to know nothing save Jesus Christ and Him crucified".

    and if any man think he knows anything he knows NOT as he ought.

    I like the wiseman I chose ;) Just standing on "The Rock" of my salvation, who is certainly not sinking sand and enjoying growing in Him [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
    #61 Star, Jul 22, 2002
  2. GH

    GH New Member

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    I like the wiseman I chose Just standing on "The Rock" of my salvation, who is certainly not sinking sand and enjoying growing in Him

    Hi Kim,

    The simplicity of the gospel of Jesus Christ! Leaning in toward Him are ya? Good advice, sis.

    Love, Di
     
    #62 GH, Jul 22, 2002
  3. GH

    GH New Member

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    Hi preacher,

    You wrote: O. K., I've been pondering(thats hillbilly for meditating) on what I've been reading & re-reading about the grace of God, & how most on this particular thread hold to a view of God chooses who He saves & who He doesn't. I gather that by now you know I believe in the free will of man to choose. So I have a what if for yuns'

    Di writes: I’m no stranger to ponderin’. Lol It’s like something gets stuck in my head and I just have to keep digging and searching for the answers until Spirit brings life to it. For example, one night I couldn’t sleep and I went outside and starting looking up at the stars. Marveling at their beauty and multitude of them. The promise that God gave to Abraham came to mind - He said that He would make his seed as the stars in the sky and the sands of the seashore. Just the thought of the numbers boggles my mind. What do you figure the number is? I couldn’t even begin to guess.

    God had called Abram out of pagan worship and sacrifice to idols to a new country. God made a covenant with him, a completely one-sided covenant, btw. Back in the old days, a blood covenant was when two parties of the covenant, as they walked between the pieces of animals were to say something to the effect, "If either of us break this covenant, may what happened to these animals, happen to the one who breaks the covenant. In other words, this kind of covenant was a life-long covenant unto death. The life of each partner in the covenant was to be at the disposal of the other party should the need ever arise. God made a blood covenant with Abraham in Gen. 15:17,18. But Abraham slept through it. The flesh man, Abram, was unable to meet his part of the requirement of this covenant. I see this as that the covenant was between the "Seed" which would come forth from Abraham and God. This covenant was a covenant between God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ in which Abraham and all his descendents would be blessed. All the families of the earth that ever lived would be blessed through this covenant, God said.

    "It came to pass, when the sun went down and it was dark, that behold, there appeared a smoking oven and a burning torch that passed between those pieces. On the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram…" (Gen. 15:17,18)

    But Abraham fell asleep. Isn’t that like our nature? We are not capable of keeping covenants with God. When Jesus was about to spill His blood to bring in the New Covenant, He asked His disciples to pray with Him. What did they do? They fell asleep. Paul spent a lot of time in his letters explaining the difference between grace and law, promise and law, man’s efforts versus God’s power. So then the New Covenant was the fulfillment of God’s promise to Abraham. "And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, ‘In you all the nations shall be blessed.’ So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham." (Gal. 3:8,9)

    You wrote: What if you all are right,we have no say so in the matter of salvation. Then how do we witness this to people. A person is told that Jesus died for their sins but they can have no part in their salvation, that it's strictly up to God. They can call on the name of Jesus, as the scripture clearly teaches, but that doesn't mean they will be saved. They can believe, again as the Word says, but they can still go to hell if God decides not to save them. Or some might think that they have a 50/50 shot so eat drink & be merry, God may choose to save us anyway.

    Di writes: The simple answer is, imo, God wanted someone to love..God being love..wanted someone to lavish his love upon. As we have seen through the ages..man has been incapable of reflecting the perfection and Holiness of his creator..this creation was given laws they couldn't keep so that God could redeem them through his savior and give his holiness and righteousness to them...he did this through a member of the Godhead...thereby creating an everlasting covenant that can never be broken by any man. Another one-sided covenant (like the one He made with Abraham) through Jesus Christ.
    Grace is unmerited favor. There has never been any human that has met God's requirements of perfection (there is no one righteous, no not one)...except Jesus. Therefore all of creation is included in his Grace. No human has ever deserved Grace...have they? So in his Grace (his plan all along) He sent a sacrifical Lamb to take away the sin of the world and redeem all. No matter what any person believes or does..it is still God's Grace that redeems them..isn't it. Jesus has done all that was needed and saved man from ever having sin held against him. The issue of sin was finished at the cross of Christ and God then imputed righteousness in place of sin thereby reconciling his creation to himself. It is God's grace and his Grace alone that has done all this...certainly not our works or even our good intentions. If men are saved by works, is salvation of grace? So no man can boast.

    You write: Actually...if you all are right then I'm not saved because I came under conviction of the Holy Ghost, Saw my need for a saviour & called out for mercy & forgivness through the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Di writes: Yes, you came under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. It was His action, not yours (one-sided covenant). Could you be convicted if Someone had not brought it about? Can you convict yourself? The Father drew you to Himself. If one man is saved by grace, why should not all be saved in like manner? Can God be "especially the Savior of them who believe," unless He be actually the Savior of all? -- (1 Tim. 4:10)

    Well, this is what I’m chewing on right now. I hope the onslaught wasn’t too ponderous. LOL:) It’s just that I can’t find any talk of hell or eternal punishment in these covenants as all involved were sleeping or dead in their sins when they occurred and didn’t know what was being done in their behalf.

    Preacher, if you found that the reconciliation of all people was true in the Scriptures, would you keep it to yourself?

    Keep ona ponderin’.

    In Him, Di
     
    #63 GH, Jul 22, 2002
  4. preacher

    preacher New Member

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    Again just a note, it may be tomorrow or the next day before I can give an involved response...but for noe I still haven't seen anything about repentence, if it's all God then why the NEED to repent?
     
    #64 preacher, Jul 22, 2002
  5. GH

    GH New Member

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    Paul says that death through sin was "imputed" to us and therefore it stands to reason that righteousness should come the same way, not through the law, or works (repentence/unrepentence) or philosophies, or rituals. Life comes from the righteousness of Jesus Christ "imputed" to us while we were yet sinners.

    Romans 5:18,19 (NIV) Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam) was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Jesus) was justification that brings life for all men.

    19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man (Adam) the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man (Jesus) the many will be made righteous.

    This why grace goes against the grain, preacher. We feel we have to do something when it has already been done.

    The Father draws us
    The Spirit convicts us
    The Savior saves us

    Should we sin then? Of course not. But we do, don't we?

    [ July 22, 2002, 08:21 PM: Message edited by: GH ]
     
    #65 GH, Jul 22, 2002
  6. Don

    Don Well-Known Member
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    But that's not what Preacher is debating with you about. Please correct me if I'm wrong--and it wouldn't be the first time, and won't be the last--but I believe he was counterpoint to your point about everyone receiving the gift of eternal life.
     
    #66 Don, Jul 22, 2002
  7. Star

    Star New Member

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    And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for THEY SHALL ALL KNOW ME, from the LEAST of them unto the GREATEST of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    They shall ALL know me? if not the least and the greatest will know Him, but we've been down the path considering who Jesus said was the least and the greatest, this includes both who break and keep the commands and these are included by God himself in the "knowing of Him" which is eternal life.

    The gifts and callings of God are WITHOUT REPENTANCE??? Could it be that knowing that the kindness of God naturally leads one to repentance? Thats why it is not required here? Or that Jesus and His baptism (He took willingly for repentance) was a work imparted to us? Elsewhere it does say that repentence is hid from His eyes. Well I wonder if its because "thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back". Seems as if this IS forgiveness of sins, God not counting their sins against them. After all God Himself is the one who bound ALL MEN OVER TO DISOBEDIENCE for the sigular purpose of having MERCY on them. HE gave the commandment that AFFORDED SIN ITSELF. He Did. the power of sin = THE LAW. OR lets say it another way THE LAW ((((( IS))))) THE POWER OF SIN. The law entered that offense might abound. The empowerment of it, the strength of it.

    In light of that I wonder what grace did [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
    #67 Star, Jul 22, 2002
  8. GH

    GH New Member

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    Hi Don,

    Who are we to talk back to the Potter? Can't some cracked pots be made for ignoble use and some for noble use?

    Paul said it - I didn't, honest. [​IMG]

    Ah but what counts is the Treasure who shines through the cracks and lights up the whole world with His glory.

    Diane
     
    #68 GH, Jul 23, 2002
  9. GH

    GH New Member

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    Dear Don,

    ONE MANS SINGLE ACT OF DISOBEDIENCE= Condemnation for ALL mankind

    ONE MANS SINGLE ACT OF RIGHEOUSNESS= life giving acquittal for ALL mankind

    This just gripped me. I had to keep on asking God to show me. “What does this mean, Lord? What about hell, judgments, wrath and what about the law and grace? These must mean something else in light of your love.” So I don’t expect you or anyone else to take my word for it. All I ask is that you consider these words of grace that I share…..and Kim and Me2 as well.

    You see, Almighty God takes full responsibility for His creation. Jesus Christ was slain before the foundation of the world." We are a part of a groaning creation, longing for release. We are groaning and travailing because our Father in His glorious plan has made it so. We are subject to vanity, not willingly (did we ask to be born?), but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in HOPE. Is this way of Life, from which we have fallen as a result of nothing we have done, reserved for the believer side of the equation only? But remember, we are all of us in the first Adam as a result of one single act of disobedience....YES IT IS NOT FAIR! Before I can sin on my own, God says, “You are lost, fall short and miss the mark, simply because you are IN ADAM.”

    Romans 5
    For already, while we were still helpless, Christ at the fitting time, died for the ungodly. Why, it is scarcely conceivable that any one would die for a just man, although for a good man perhaps some one might have the courage even to die. But God gives proof of His love to us in Christ's dying for us while we were still sinners.

    MUCH MORE THEN, now that we have been acquitted by His blood, shall we be delivered from God's anger through Him. For if while we were hostile we were reconciled to Him through the death of His Son, the more certainly, after being reconciled, shall we obtain salvation through Christ's life. And not only so, but we exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now obtained our reconciliation.

    For if, through the transgression of one, death entered on his reign by means of one man, ALL THE MORE shall those who receive God's overflowing grace and gift of righteousness reign in life through the One--Jesus Christ.

    Well, then, just as the result of a single transgression is condemnation for ALL MANKIND, SO ALSO the result of a single deed of righteousness is a life-giving acquittal FOR ALL MANKIND. For as through the disobedience of one individual the mass of mankind were made sinners, SO ALSO through the obedience of One the mass of mankind will be made righteous.
    Law crept in later on, so that transgression might increase. But where sin increased, ALL THE MORE was grace abundant; in order that as sin has reigned and brought death, so grace, too, may reign by means of righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

    Most OT prophecies, judgments and warnings were for the Jews and the nation of Israel and have nothing to do with us gentiles. This is also true for NT scripture. The first believers were Jews and were mixing the old covenant (old wineskin) with the new covenant (new wineskin). Paul spoke of the Judizers and warned against this. A little leaven spoils the whole lump. It is by grace only that we are saved, not of ourselves. Paul said, if we follow the law, Christ’s death is of no value to us. It is good to ask, “who is God talking to when we read and in what context.”

    Read the letter that went to gentile believers in Acts 15 – the Holy Spirit only “burdened” the gentiles with a few requirements and yet the Church down through the ages has placed such great burdens on people. Leaving the simplicity of the gospel and of faith in Jesus Christ’s finished work on the cross.

    Well, I guess I’ve gone on and on again.

    Love in Christ,

    Di
     
    #69 GH, Jul 23, 2002
  10. Star

    Star New Member

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    Grasshopper,
    Hitting the sack helps huh? lol! Amen. Who resists His will? certainly not Judas who was right there bringing into fulfillment that which God foreordained and purposed in Christ. Who is right there in Kings asking to help the Lord in His purpose? a "lying Spirit". There is no one that He is not able to use and no one who can alter His purpose. No one can snatch us from His hand, nothing can separate us from His love, no one can thwart His plan, or resist His will. funny Satan is used in order to TEACH NOT TO blaspheme, He's used to keep Paul from getting conceited. All things work together for good to those who love Him. If God be for us, who can really be against us? In reality opposition can be an open door. Opposition from who? People? As waters? Can He not divide them and let one walk through the midst thereof on dry ground? Nothing or no one has any power except that which is given by God Himself. The reccognition of such Sovereignty is mind blowing! To look at opposition and see only an open door, knowing full well He can make a way in the face of what appears to be a road block.

    Taste and see the Lord is GOOD [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
    #70 Star, Jul 23, 2002
  11. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hi Folks,

    Ive Been obesrving this thread and ive noticed some "battle-lines" drawn.

    We Know That The Bible Speaks of obedient and disobedient children within the churches.

    We Also Can Draw a Simple line between carnal minded and "spirit-filled" or spirits "in a state of rest".

    OK..now we are speaking of Grace...however "superficial", (as Don has Called the threads contents)...We Recognize That God Has Given To All Mankind..Thru the Propitiation of Jesus.

    Grace is Introduced To Mankind by Gods Individual Selection, or Announcement To Whom He Chooses.....

    The individual is introduced to Jesus, Their personal savior...Now The Atoning work begins.
    The Saturation of Jesus, (the high preist) begins His Healing Ministry to the Newly "Christian".

    The Progression of Recognition and Repentence of Sin and Error. The Instruction of Wisdom.
    Via Doctrine, and recomendations of lifestyle changes mediated by the holy spirit.

    In The Epistles of John..The Scriptures speak of levels of change in the believers Responses towards God and Man in Their Comprehension and understanding. Clearly we Can See That The Distinguishments of obedient and disobedient Believers as Children in Their Progress of Comprehension. of Carnal and Spirit filled individuals.

    Heres where Many Might Find my viewpoint to Blatant. I Believe That The Bible Was Written To The Body Of Christ..Today We who Are within The Christian Religions are recognized As That Body. Carnal As Well As Spirit Filled. Disobedient as well as obedient "Children". in OUR Bibles We Find many Lists discribing differences between such groups of believers...All Are Saved or in The Progression of being Saved..Mentally,Physically, and Spiritually.

    The Thread on Grace is Where We Are NOW..We Believed When We First were drawn By The Father to Jesus That God the Father and Jesus Loved Us To Provide The Propitiation for our Personal Sins..we know if we cant shake sins in our lives it has to be for a reason..

    No. 1 on The List Is Not Believing Jesus Died For All Sins. That The Father Is Not Soverign over His Creation...Namely our Little Sins...not even Mentioning anyone elses Sins.

    And So The Journey Begins of The Lesson of The Woodshed.
    Some Of Our Reactions is to Live In A Fantasy world of our own..Confusion, doubt, Fear, envy
    unforgiveness,hatred,etc...(sounds like punishment and torment...hmmm)

    Does Grace Still Exist..in A Word..Simply Yes
    Grace (imo) Is Seen As A Process with many Pieces..Love, Forgiveness, Mercy

    So We Can Say That Grace Is Not The Battle Line That Is Drawn Here But It Is Gods Sovereignty Over His Creation and Who God Is..

    Now We Can Move On Inside The Churches..just who are these anti christs and false prophets. Carnal Believers.....and what are their messages (or Gospels) ????

    Any Comments......

    Me2
     
    #71 Me2, Jul 23, 2002
  12. Star

    Star New Member

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    Now We Can Move On Inside The Churches..just who are these anti christs and false prophets. Carnal Believers.....and what are their messages (or Gospels) ????

    Anti? whats that mean? ;) Against, or substitute for what?

    Speaking lies in what manner? Or making ones refuge in lies,and what is seen in scripture concerning this?

    "WHO" deceives the false prophets in scripture??? [​IMG]

    Shall know the truth and it shall make you free, verses not knowing the truth and it shall what?

    Torment... Look in the curse of the law. Fear for ones life (salvation?) believing a lie... which one? Who sent the lie? Does the "lie" set you free? We are free from what? If another is still bound does that make the truth of being free void because its not known? Is it just "unrealized"? Does that which binds need further work in one in order to bring them to the end of it? Mixing wines, what is it? What happens when you mix the wines? whats seen, or experienced and how is this a spiritual truth by the use of these words concerning salvation?

    Questions questions questions known by One and revealed in time to the seeking heart drawn by the Father.

    For me theres just questions (as is clear by now) :D ;)

    I'll look forward to this thread :D

    In Him Kim
     
    #72 Star, Jul 23, 2002
  13. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hello Star,
    Ive Got One FOr You...We Have Been Speaking About Comprehending Infinite Love Of God and Sovereignty...Look At Romans chapter 1..Who Hold THE TRUTH IN UNRIGHTEOUSNESS..
    Well Who Knows The Truth? Apparently It Sounds Like Unbeleif or Non Acceptance
    Rom 1:19. Because that which may be known of God IS MANIFEST IN THEM; for God hath SHOWN IT UNTO THEM.

    Rom 1:21 Because when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was Darkened.
    Rom 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
    Rom 1:23 And Changed the Glory Of the uncorrutible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.

    Ill Not Type All The Next Verses 1:24 to 2:16 We Know the lists but do we ever think that the lists are discribing Carnal Christians...Who Do Not Understand, Comprehend or Reconize THE SOVERIGNTY OF GOD AS SUPREME......

    Lots Of TidBits Can Be Gleaned...Are We SPeaking Of Homosexuality 1:24-27..
    This Is So Funny..Remember we once spoke of the mysteries. Heres One..
    Man Shall Leave His Mother and Father and Be Joined with His Wife and The Two Shall Become One Flesh.... It Gets Deeper...Jesus Christ The High Priest..Is Joined To The Father
    What I See I Do, What I Hear I Say of The Father..Describing The Relationship With The Father... Man is Supposed To..What I See I Do, What I Hear I Say...Of The Lord Jesus Christ..
    With The Wife And Husband..Wife Submits to Husband...Wife Gets Saved During Childbirth...
    Wife and Child Relationship...Child Submits to Mother..
    All To Describe The Soverignty Of An Authority..and how the relationship works..
    Melchezidek..remember him..Forerunner of Christ Ministry..What Did He Do
    Stand In Front Of The Glory Of God and Standing In Front Of Mankind. Blessed By God and Giving Gods Blessings To Mankind...Who's In Authority..What Happened To Melchezidek..
    During The Blessings Between God and Man..He Falls Back..He Doesnt Exist..He Self Sacrifices his life for Gods and Mans Glory Just As Jesus, or Mankinds, Or The Mother.
    Rom 1:24 uncleaness of body...Makes you useless as a High Priest between God And Man..
    Dishonor bodies...Preaching to Each other with no Blessing from God Himself..No One Can Stand Before God. (which They Are The Temple..the Body) remember in the old testament..The High Priest Wore Bells To Signify If They Were Still Alive Standing In The Presents Of A Holy God. (hehehe I Love Those Bells! GH)
    Still (imho) I See Romans and Men with Men, Women with women as non Biblical relationship
    Husband with wife. Not Pastor with wife. All Women Are Under Their Fathers or Husbands..Not Pastors...This Is An Example Of Authority to The Church God to Lord to Man To Woman to Child. another misnomer...Men with Men...any compromise between men and men is sin..one of the two Men is not getting their way...
    Just Like Adam..When He Doubted His Decision of What He Believed What Was Right..He Sinned..Thats Why Guys Feel Like Its Their Way Or The Highway...its a Guy (God) thang.
    Anyways Star...The Bible Lays It All Out. So Heres A Question..
    Is This A Misconception of Grace, Or Sovereignty in The Believers Life?
     
    #73 Me2, Jul 23, 2002
  14. Star

    Star New Member

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    Me2 says,

    We Know the lists but do we ever think that the lists are discribing Carnal Christians...Who Do Not Understand, Comprehend or Reconize THE SOVERIGNTY OF GOD AS SUPREME......

    Absolutely Me2 I see where your coming from I agree, as in the case where Paul speaks about being delivered from wicked men because not everyone has faith. The "professing to know God" is a dead give away here [​IMG] especially by "their works" and in which manner it speaks concerning them.

    I am very interested in what you shared after "lots of tid bits" but I got lost but felt inclined to listen closely to what you were saying, can I ask you to share on that again, you speak way over my head sometimes but I know you speak simplicistically, I need to catch up lol! You and Di are going on about the "bells" and darned if I don't feel left out of the loop on understanding what they signify. (I'm not good at the High preist stuff surrounding the law) Funny thing is I'm on two threads discussing these very things, even wondering about them. Well were all learning and its my time to sit back and listen and grow in my learning while others do the talking. I'm all for that [​IMG]

    Me2 says again,

    Is This A Misconception of Grace, Or Sovereignty in The Believers Life?

    You lost me again! lol! Sorry Me2 I'm still getting familiar with your personal style of sharing which blesses my socks off but at times I might not catch on, I don't understand the question as it relates to the above (though that may be because I don't understand the above yet).

    Thank you for bearing with me

    In Him Kim <----------Trying to grasp [​IMG]
     
    #74 Star, Jul 23, 2002
  15. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hi Star,
    Bells...Dont you have a Bible on your pc..Try e-sword. Downloads with a lot of extras...Its Free

    Back To Bells...Facing A Holy God in The Holy of Holies requires a Blameless and spotless High Priest..A Double insurance was given. Bells Tied on the Robe of The High Priest as he enters...Giving assurance to the people claiming that the priest was accepted as blameless and spotless, and to the people waiting outside..that the sacrifice also was accepted by God..
    Those bells were (and Are!) continually ringing.
    Exo 28:33,34
    Exo 39:25,26
    Zec 14:20

    I Dont want to remind you But you are the "temple"..The "High Priest" is inside You..Heaven Is "Within" You..God Is "In You". living in one dimension in the flesh..and another dimension within you..Heaven on Earth....Go Figure..Before God and Before Mankind..You Are That High Priest...May Your Bells Be Continually Ringing.....

    This Is What The Father Has Drawn You To Jesus OUR High Priest For....Reconciliation..
    For The Anointing of Gods "Zoa" Life...,Mercy and Forgiveness to Be Known First Hand.
    We Should Recognize That This Is A Double Honor..Before God and Before Man...and Now We Are Learning What It Means To "Fall Away". Self Sacrifice of Dying To Self....
    When Mankind Meets God and His Grace...

    Cant You See Why The Understanding Of Gods Sovereignty and His Character (which is Infinite and Unconditional "Agape" Love) is Vital To Our Growth..Learning How To Love Our Enemies..To Stand Before All and Offer Forgiveness. To Not Let Any Spot or Blemish of Carnal Mind Appear. To Allow God To Live Through Us To All...
    To Be Able To Stand Before God Representing The Believer In Need Of Forgiveness and Mercy As Well As Standing Before Man To Offer Gods Grace To Be Shown Through Us.
    That Is What Jesus Was To Represent Before The World...Hope.

    or how about that Great Commandment..Love One Another...or Love God, Love Man.....

    Mat 20:16 So The Last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    The Mystery of Christ..
    Christ Followed The Fathers Will Explicitly

    Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to Do the Will Of Him that sent me, and to Finish his work.
    Joh 5:30 I Can of Mine ownself do Nothing: as I Hear, I judge: and my judgement is Just: because I Seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.
    Joh 5:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no Wise cast out.
    Joh 6:38 For I Came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
    Joh 6:39 And This is the Fathers will which hath sent me, that of All which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day
    Mar 14:36 And He Said Abba, Father. All Things are possible unto thee, take away this cup from Me; neverless not What I Will, But what thou wilt.

    ..and Christ Will To Man

    Mat 12:50 For whosoever shall do the Will of My Father which is in Heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

    Mat 16:25 For Whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for My Sake shall find it.
    Mat 10:33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

    Mar 8:32 And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, He said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, Let Him deny himself. and Take up his Cross, and Follow Me.
    Joh 14:13 And Whatsoever ye Shall Ask In My Name, that will I Do, That the Father may be glorified in the Son.
    Joh 14:14 If Ye shall Ask Anything in my name, I will Do It.
    Joh 14:18 I Will Not Leave you comfortless: I Will come to You.
    Joh 14:21 He That Hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my father, and I will Love him, and will manifest myself to him.
    Joh 15:7 If You Abide in Me and my words abide in you, Ye shall Ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
    Joh 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit: so shall ye be my disciples.
    Joh 15:9 As The Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
    Joh 15:10 If Ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Fathers commandments, and abide in his love.
    Joh 16:23 And In that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, Verily, I Say unto You, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in My Name, He Will give it You.
    Joh 16:24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

    Eph 5:21-32 Mystery explained..Parable repeated...flesh becomes one

    An Interesting Parallel..... Jesus and The Father....Jesus and Church....Man and Woman...
    and at the same time it uncovers principles about sovereignty, authority, and order


    1 Ti 2:15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. before this statement the scripture was speaking of modesty in womens attire, or under subjection, or upsurping authority....makes ya think..
    While the Child is obeying parents, the woman will understand authority and order....

    Wife Submits to Will Of Husband
    Child Submits To Mothers Will


    This could go On for A Long Time...Ask Specific questions please....

    Me2
    [​IMG]
     
    #75 Me2, Jul 24, 2002
  16. Star

    Star New Member

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    Me2 Thanks for the kind repeat, I hear you loud and clear. I'm a bit slow in that area and can't stir myself up to dive into these things for some reason. Guess I'm going in a designated direction... sound familiar? Green light, Red light sort of deal, I'm sure you know what I'm talking about given you interpreted that inner flow nicely [​IMG]

    Good Lord was that what you were talking about? We being the Temple? Your kidding! (Pulling your chain) lol! Thanks for the reminder, I wasn't reading you as loud and clear as usual and thought I'd ask because what you share always blesses me and it does as you explained what it was you were showing, but you do have a unique way of sharing ( I wouldn't change a thing, just sometimes I'm the one lagging behind) .

    I have come to realize just what you shared concerning Gods love and know that His love is indeed vital. Its His nature, shown by His work, seen in His Son, shed abroad in our hearts. Its His command to love, Its Him teaching us to love, its the fulfillment of the law, its His righteous requirements met in us, its how we are perfected, where we should be planted, its where we should be rooted, its the fruit we should bear rightly abiding Him, Apart from Him we can do nothing. In Him a labor of love who's yoke is light. Absolutely I hear you Me2 and Amen freind.

    Without blame IN LOVE. The Carnal mind is hostile toward God, but the hostility I saw torward Christ came from the religious sector. To Cain God said, "what have you done"? Christ says Father forgive them they know not what they do, He was offering an offering to God, He is the religious man, in seeing this and walking in it myself I remember the hatred I walked in stalking others in the name of God trying to trap them prove them wrong, putting on a show of spirituality to be seen and esteemed by others (secretly ofcourse) masking my words and unaware of my heart or my foolishness. At times fearful as the "what if's" plagued me concerning all the inner turmoil I wouldn't have the time to explain. I jumped on judgement verses needing them to be explained or to scare another who felt confident in it. I knew nothing of the love I so easily tossed aside. It was nice to end a paragraph with something concerning the love of God but that love was so far from my knowing in actual experience.

    My doctrines were set in stone and confidently I mapped out the sequence of events as they were given to me in the many various forms depending on the "topic of the moment". Thought I knew something, I knew nothing at all. In a moment I knew I did not know God though I professed it. I knew verses, I repeated them and believed them, but it was not Him. At first this sent me reeling as if somehow I loss my faith, a faith based more on what I thought I knew verses knowing Him. The internal shift that followed was not of my own making. Without entering into the entire Journey I sought to understand His love, something I confessed but never walked in, nor could I recconcile with many things written in scripture. I started to look where I felt led (red light green light) Ever since I see His love more and more and it continues to grow, when I think its limited though I profess its not He continues to amaze me. His love is seen even in scripture in places others might see death, you know what I'm talking about Me2 I know you do.

    Whatever is against us if it were against us, God be for us. He used to give me an enemy I'd say I loved them, but I didn't love them I hated them, I was a liar I did NOT KNOW GOD, in others words the phrase Eternal life (which is by definition) knowing Him was not in me. One could use that verse to indite a person, to damn them to eternity, yet that reality was in my life and a better NONcondemning approach to seeing and understanding that verse came through my experiencial learning. When I see me (as I was) in another, I see they know not God, this is not a judgement, not as others use or perceive that verse. they are "me" going through the motions attacking, condemning, looking for fault, claiming love and not realizing because of blindness (the kind all teenagers have, in the "know it all sense") NEEDING TO BE ENLIGHTENED, which comes in time through various ways, but they are loved no less by their parents because of this.

    After such blindness and self knowledge to know that love with open arms in His presense makes one desire His love over life itself. Once that is realized I cannot see how it is possible (especially after tasting it) to turn back, or setting aside of His Love or Grace. BOTH are EFFECTUAL.

    Sorry dripping on, I occasionally get away from myself and go on soap mode lost in my thoughts in the wee zone hour of the morning. I hope I don't kick myself in the morning when I'm drinking my morning cup of jumpstart.

    In Him Kim [​IMG]
     
    #76 Star, Jul 24, 2002
  17. Star

    Star New Member

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    Me2,

    WHOA!!!! I had copy pasted your first post wherewith I said I did not understand what you had said, and this morning I had one of those moments in the Sun! lol! God WAS manifested IN them, Gees this blew right past me! Neither had they glorified Him as God or were thankful.

    I knew I was inclined to hear what you said but was unable to grasp what you were trying to say and it hit me this morning as I reread your post. I sat there and the words, "God hath shown it to them" were the key players in this revelation. Are we speaking of homosexuality?

    If you know me by now I'd rather agree with you by repeating "the question" but keep what I now see as true to myself for obvious reasons.

    Thank you Me2, blessed again in Christ through you.

    In Him Kim [​IMG]
     
    #77 Star, Jul 24, 2002
  18. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Howdy Star,

    OK So Were Back To The Question....

    Was This A Misconception of The Grace of God ?

    Or A Misconception of The Sovereignty of God ?

    (I Know You Have Already Answered This But Ill Give You Another shot)

    PS..I Stay within context on this its speaking of Sovereignty (ie Supreme Justice..)
    Two Become one flesh..A lesson..of authority and order Husbands with wives..
    not men w/men or women w/women....
    anyway look at the list..homosexuality seems small compared these.
    [28] Did Not LIKE to retain in their knowledge...Think About..Grow..pray..communicate
    remember carnal against spirit.
    [32] knowing judgement of God....hmmmm.... drawn by father..worthy of death..lack of faith


    PS You Write Beautifully...You Inspire Me

    Me2
    [​IMG]

    [ July 24, 2002, 11:34 AM: Message edited by: Me2 ]
     
    #78 Me2, Jul 24, 2002
  19. Star

    Star New Member

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    Me2,

    I would see it as both, am I catching this? :confused: I'm going to copy your post again, I get these things after thinking on what you say, I have a record of capturing the glimpse the next day. I try to be careful how I hear and its that "irk" of not getting it but knowing somethings there that drives to look more closely. Thanks for your patience with me [​IMG]

    In Him Kim
     
    #79 Star, Jul 24, 2002
  20. Me2

    Me2 New Member

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    Hi Star,
    Im Asking Myself these Questions Too Now..

    First...These Are Carnal Christians..Disobedient children..
    As we have Seen Carnal Christians Do Not Accept The Total Soveriegnty of God
    when we think that..Can Sovereignty be offered in partiality or is this mans imagination.

    Lets See Sovereignty Takes into Itself..Power,Authority, Responsibility and the Character of Who God Is...of Course if We Said You Could Add The Definition Of Infinity...Would That Be Overkill...??

    Grace and Truth As Seen as The Gospel

    Well The Death Burial and Resurrection Of Jesus As Gods Propitiation For Mankinds Stead
    Thats the Gospel....But The Truth...Hmmm..Truth is Relative..To What? ..The Character of Who Is Saying It..Which Is God...Who Is God....God Is Love....
    We Can Say That Creation itself is An Attribute Of Love..God Expressing Himself to Himself...
    Trees and Rocks and Lizards...and Mankind..The Plan of Reconciliation..The Death Of God...The Joining Of Mankind with God...Love.....Thats Truth to Himself..to Us..We Can Only Perceive It...
    Interract, Observe,..(But To Nullify?)


    Joh 1:14 And The Word was made Flesh, and dwelt among us,(and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of Grace and Truth.
    Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

    Love is viewed in patiality..God Loves me...but we see that loving your enemies nullifies this concept in denial...god doesnt love them...because they did that

    Comprehension of forgiveness doesnt apply to their enemies..God Cant Forgive Them For That. or is this partial view also wrong and conceived in the imaginations of man.

    Mercy doesnt apply...Gods gonna Rapture us But His Enemies Are gonna Burn.....

    So We Got Love, Forgiveness, Mercy..the only thing left is the Actions Of Jesus Christ Dying As Propitiation....For Me..He's my lord..his blood only applies if you call out his Name....
    But His Blood Doesnt Apply To Nobody Else......another Misnomer of Mans ?......

    OK now we have Love, Forgiveness, Mercy and the propitiation of Christ.....I Think Thats The Grace Part...All Misconceived By Carnal Christians....hhmm...at least partially.
    But These are works of God To Man..He Cant Screw Those Up..But He Can In His Imaginations...

    I Have Yet To Find A Scripture To Nullify The Sovereignty of God...Of Course..We Have SATAN
    The Misconception Of Satan Being Created Good and Falling To A State In Which He Creates Himself...now This Relies on The Imaginations Of Men..The Bible Says That God Created Satan A Liar and Murderer From The Beginning..Created To Fulfill A Position Of Limited Control under God.....People Believe That Salvation Is offered like a Gift that Can Be Accepted or Denied...
    Or Once Given Can Be Lost somewhere or somehow. Somewhat Like Satan Falling "Out of Grace". ...Just What Is This Free Willism..Can Someone Prove This Doctrine?

    Now Finally We Are At The Question....In Romans Ch 1....
    Was This A Problem Of Misconception of Grace...(as Defined Further Above)
    or Was This A Mis Conception of Sovereignty Of God....ie Faith of WHO GOD IS

    Seeing That Grace Is Free..only to Be Accepted and Comprehended
    and The Sovereignty of God To Be Accepted by Faith Of Just What Is...

    Are We At The Point Of "Oh Ye Of Little Faith" or "Pride Goes Before A Fall" or Both

    any comments...

    Me2
    :rolleyes:
     
    #80 Me2, Jul 24, 2002
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