Why should plucking grain be less an act of work than gathering sticks, for which God ordered a man stoned?
The Deut. verse had nothing to do with working on the Sabbath. But you're bound by whatcha read from the charlatan Mrs. White.
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Grace Plus Law.
- Thread starter 37818
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Why should plucking grain be less an act of work than gathering sticks, for which God ordered a man stoned?
The Deut. verse had nothing to do with working on the Sabbath. But you're bound by whatcha read from the charlatan Mrs. White.
Most of us don't use the KJV. (NOT "KJB").
How goofy !
There are only two types of Sabbath: the regular weekly one, & the special observation days God gave to Israel. Paul didn't exclude either of them, nor did he try to invent a 3rd tyoe.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Colossians 2, as shown you on numerous occasions, is directly citing Ezekiel 45:17, which in turn is citing from Numbers 28-29 (as you already know, having shown you in multiple forums):
Numbers 28:9-10 is the weekly 7th Day, since it states "the sabbath day", and "every sabbath", literally "sabbath to sabbath [Numbers 28:10 HOT Translit. - olat shaBat B'shaBaTô al-olat haTämiyd w'niš'KäH š, which is similar to Isaiah 66:23 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh miDëy-chodesh B'chäd'shô ûmiDëy shaBät B'shaBaTô yävô khäl-Bäsär l'hish'Tacháwot l'fänay ämar y'hwäh].
Notice, that Numbers 28, delineates the 7th day before all the others.
Numbers 28:1-8 KJB, is the "continual" or "day by day" offerings, aka 'the daily'.
Numbers 28:9-10 KJB, is the "every sabbath" on "the sabbath day", which is the weekly 7th day Sabbath offerings.
Numbers 28:11-15 KJB, is the "beginnings of your months", and "every month", or monthly offerings.
Numbers 28:16-25 KJB is the "in the fourteenth day of the first month is the passover of the LORD" and "in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast: seven days shall unleavened bread", which is the seasonal feast of Passover and of unleavened bread of the spring, and would be the spring seasonal offering, or even the first feast of the religious year offering.
Numbers 28:26-31 KJB is the "in the day of the firstfruits" and "after your weeks", or the seaonal wavesheaf offering along with Pentecost [feast of weeks], which basically closes the seasonal spring feasts.
Numbers 29:1-6 KJB continues them of the seasonal feasts "in the seventh month, on the first day of the month, ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work: it is a day of blowing the trumpets", which is the seasonal fall feast of Trumpets and its offerings.
Numbers 29:7-11 KJB is the "have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein", "of atonement", or the seasonal fall feast of the day of atonement offering.
Numbers 29:12-40 KJB is the "on the fifteenth day of the seventh month ye shall have an holy convocation; ye shall do no servile work, and ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days", which is the final seasonal fall feast of booths/ingathering/tabernacles offerings. Which completes the full offerings in the year.
This is undisputed, and undisputable.
The 7th day is never listed last, and in Numbers 28 it is in increasing order (daily, weekly, seasonly, monthly, yearly). Even as in Leviticus 23, and Leviticus 25, followed by all the other materials, the daily meat and drink offerings, seasonal feast days, monthly new moons, and of years (yearly) sabbaths (7th and 50th years).
The remainder of the Bible follows that pattern, and so does Paul:
Leviticus 23:1- 44, 25:1-22; Numbers 28:1-40; 1 Chronicles 23:31; 2 Chronicles 2:4, 8:13, 31:3; Nehemiah 10:33; Isaiah 1:13-14 (Isaiah, this is a unique, a parallelism within itself, case); Ezekiel 45:17, 46:1-11; Hosea 2:11, and see also Galatians 4:10; Colossians 2:16.
What was that pattern? Were the weekly listed last in any case? No. The Yearly typical sabbaths were always listed last.
The order in Colossians 2 is given as:
[1] "daily" [in meat, or in drink [offerings]],
[2] "seasonally" [or in respect of an holyday; ie feast days of seasons, Spring, Fall]
[3] "monthly" [of the new moon]
[4] "annually, yearly, and 7th year and 50th Year" ["of the sabbath [days]" [plural]].
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Galatians 4:10 -
You are in great error here, seeing as you reversed the textual order to being with:
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
1 Chronicles 23:31 -
Please notice:
1Ch 23:30 And to stand every morning to thank and praise the LORD, and likewise at even;
1Ch 23:31 And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the LORD in the sabbaths, in the new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order commanded unto them, continually before the LORD:
Vs 30 begins with the "daily", even the "morning" and "even[ing]".
vs 31 continues with weekly sabbaths, monthly new moons, seasonal feasts (spring/fall), which would also include the yearly sabbaths following.
Therefore, it is again, in increasing, nor decreasing order. [1] days, [2] weeks, [3] months [4] seasons [5] yearly.
In Colossians 2, the weekly are not included, as they are not "ordinances", but rather God's Law.
Why are you reversing the order from what is clearly given?
2 Chronicles 2:4 -
Notice again:
2Ch 2:4 Behold, I build an house to the name of the LORD my God, to dedicate it to him, and to burn before him sweet incense, and for the continual shewbread, and for the burnt offerings morning and evening, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts of the LORD our God. This is an ordinance for ever to Israel.
Notice the "continual", which is the "daily" as seen by the "morning and evening" again. Then follows the weekly, then the monthly, then the seaonsal feast (spring/fall), which also would include the yearly sabbaths that take place within some of them. Notice that not all feasts are sabbaths, and thu are two distinct phenomena.
Again your order is reversed.
2 Chronicles 8:13 -
Notice again:
2Ch 8:13 Even after a certain rate every day, offering according to the commandment of Moses, on the sabbaths, and on the new moons, and on the solemn feasts, three times in the year, even in the feast of unleavened bread, and in the feast of weeks, and in the feast of tabernacles.
"certiain rate every day" (meat and drink offerings), is the daily again. This is followed by the weekly, then the monthly and the seasonal festal (spring/fall) and thus includes "three times in the year", or yearly.
You order is reversed.
2 Chronicles 31:3 -
Notice:
2Ch 31:3 He appointed also the king's portion of his substance for the burnt offerings, to wit, for the morning and evening burnt offerings, and the burnt offerings for the sabbaths, and for the new moons, and for the set feasts, as it is written in the law of the LORD.
Notice the "burnt offerings: for the daily "morning and evening". This is followed by the weekly, then the monthly new moons, and then the seasonal festal (spring/fall), which would include the yearly again.
Your order is reversed.
Nehemiah 10:33 -
Notice:
Neh 10:33 For the shewbread, and for the continual meat offering, and for the continual burnt offering, of the sabbaths, of the new moons, for the set feasts, and for the holy things, and for the sin offerings to make an atonement for Israel, and for all the work of the house of our God.
Notice the "continual" or daily. Then follows the weekly sabbaths, the monthly new moons, the seaonal festal (spring/fall)), and the ultimate "atonement" is on the Day of Atonement, which is yearly, again.
Your order is reversed.
Isaiah 1:13-14 -
Notice:
Isa 1:13 Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.
Isa 1:14 Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.
Isaiah is a little more interesting in that it is paralleled to itself. The "sabbaths" are specific to "appointed feasts" in their seaons, not the weekly 7th day the sabbath of the Lord. God would never tell His people to transgress His Law of Ten Commandments. however, He would make mention of those things which were to point forward to Christ Jesus that they were abusing.
Again this would teach, and increasing order, "new moons", "sabbaths (identified as those in the appointed feasts)".
Thus your order is reversed.
Ezekiel 45:17 -
This is what Paul cites in Colossians 2:16 and already demonstrated to not be as you stated, but also in reverse of what you stated.
Eze 45:17 And it shall be the prince's part to give burnt offerings, and meat offerings, and drink offerings, in the feasts, and in the new moons, and in the sabbaths, in all solemnities of the house of Israel: he shall prepare the sin offering, and the meat offering, and the burnt offering, and the peace offerings, to make reconciliation for the house of Israel.
See those replies. Again, it is in increasing order, daily (offerings), seasonal festal, monthly new moons, yearly sabbaths, all dealing with the sanctuary services as context showed.
Ezekiel 46:1-11 -
Notice, just an expansion of Ezekiel 45:17:
Eze 46:1 Thus saith the Lord GOD; The gate of the inner court that looketh toward the east shall be shut the six working days; but on the sabbath it shall be opened, and in the day of the new moon it shall be opened.
Eze 46:2 And the prince shall enter by the way of the porch of that gate without, and shall stand by the post of the gate, and the priests shall prepare his burnt offering and his peace offerings, and he shall worship at the threshold of the gate: then he shall go forth; but the gate shall not be shut until the evening.
Eze 46:3 Likewise the people of the land shall worship at the door of this gate before the LORD in the sabbaths and in the new moons.
Eze 46:4 And the burnt offering that the prince shall offer unto the LORD in the sabbath day shall be six lambs without blemish, and a ram without blemish.
Eze 46:5 And the meat offering shall be an ephah for a ram, and the meat offering for the lambs as he shall be able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah.
Eze 46:6 And in the day of the new moon it shall be a young bullock without blemish, and six lambs, and a ram: they shall be without blemish.
Eze 46:7 And he shall prepare a meat offering, an ephah for a bullock, and an ephah for a ram, and for the lambs according as his hand shall attain unto, and an hin of oil to an ephah.
Eze 46:8 And when the prince shall enter, he shall go in by the way of the porch of that gate, and he shall go forth by the way thereof.
Eze 46:9 But when the people of the land shall come before the LORD in the solemn feasts, he that entereth in by the way of the north gate to worship shall go out by the way of the south gate; and he that entereth by the way of the south gate shall go forth by the way of the north gate: he shall not return by the way of the gate whereby he came in, but shall go forth over against it.
Eze 46:10 And the prince in the midst of them, when they go in, shall go in; and when they go forth, shall go forth.
Eze 46:11 And in the feasts and in the solemnities the meat offering shall be an ephah to a bullock, and an ephah to a ram, and to the lambs as he is able to give, and an hin of oil to an ephah.
Hosea 2:11
Notice:
Hos 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.
Context, "her sabbaths", which are "[their] sabbaths", and is not God's Sabbath (Genesis 2:1-3; Exodus 20:8-11), as shown earlier. The fulfillment of Daniel 9.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Context. Does the word "law", or "commandments" always mean "The Ten Commandments" when given in scripture? (of course not).
mailmandan
Active Member
Are you basically saying that the sabbath day changed from Saturday to Sunday and we are now to keep the Sabbath day on the Lord’s day which is Sunday?
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
This is one of the references to which the OP seems to refer to, though never actually directly cited:
"... Tuesday, May 31, about eleven o'clock, we were seated in the cars for Hamburg, on our way to Copenhagen, Denmark, where we were to hold several meetings. At Dusseldorf we changed cars, and were obliged to wait two hours in the depot. Here we had an opportunity to study human nature. The ladies came in, changed their outer wraps, and then surveyed themselves on every side, to see that their dress was faultless. Then extra touches of powder must be put upon their faces. Long they lingered before the mirror, in order to arrange their outward apparel to their satisfaction, for the purpose of appearing their best when looked upon by human eyes. I thought of the law of God, the great moral looking-glass into which the sinner is to look to discover the defects of his character. If all would study the law of God--the moral standard of character--as diligently and critically as many do their outward appearance by means of the looking-glass, with a purpose to correct and reform every defect of character, what transformations would most assuredly take place in them: "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." {RH, October 11, 1887 par. 13}
There are many who view themselves as defective in character when they look into God's moral mirror, his law; but they have heard so much of "All you have to do is to believe, only believe that Jesus has done it all, and you have nothing to do in the matter," that after venturing to look into the mirror they straightway go from it retaining all their defects, with the words on their lips, "Jesus has done it all." These are represented by the figure that James has marked out--the man beholding himself and going away and forgetting what manner of man he was. "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." James has told what is to be done: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." Faith and works are the two oars that must be used to urge the bark against the current of worldliness, pride, and vanity; and if these are not used, the boat will drift with the current downward to perdition. God help us to take care of the inward adorning; to set the heart in order as carefully as we arrange the outward apparel. {RH, October 11, 1887 par. 14} ..."
"... Tuesday, May 31, about eleven o'clock, we were seated in the cars for Hamburg, on our way to Copenhagen, Denmark, where we were to hold several meetings. At Dusseldorf we changed cars, and were obliged to wait two hours in the depot. Here we had an opportunity to study human nature. The ladies came in, changed their outer wraps, and then surveyed themselves on every side, to see that their dress was faultless. Then extra touches of powder must be put upon their faces. Long they lingered before the mirror, in order to arrange their outward apparel to their satisfaction, for the purpose of appearing their best when looked upon by human eyes. I thought of the law of God, the great moral looking-glass into which the sinner is to look to discover the defects of his character. If all would study the law of God--the moral standard of character--as diligently and critically as many do their outward appearance by means of the looking-glass, with a purpose to correct and reform every defect of character, what transformations would most assuredly take place in them: "For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: for he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed." {RH, October 11, 1887 par. 13}
There are many who view themselves as defective in character when they look into God's moral mirror, his law; but they have heard so much of "All you have to do is to believe, only believe that Jesus has done it all, and you have nothing to do in the matter," that after venturing to look into the mirror they straightway go from it retaining all their defects, with the words on their lips, "Jesus has done it all." These are represented by the figure that James has marked out--the man beholding himself and going away and forgetting what manner of man he was. "Be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves." James has told what is to be done: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." Faith and works are the two oars that must be used to urge the bark against the current of worldliness, pride, and vanity; and if these are not used, the boat will drift with the current downward to perdition. God help us to take care of the inward adorning; to set the heart in order as carefully as we arrange the outward apparel. {RH, October 11, 1887 par. 14} ..."
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
In matters of Grace being Power, from the OP, tis also seeming to be a reference to:
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"... "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" I repeat the words of John, "Behold the Lamb of God!" We are to contemplate the character of Christ. We are to meditate upon the cross of Calvary; for it is the unanswerable argument of Christianity. The message we are to bear to the impenitent, the warning we are to give to the backslider, is, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! Those who bring the message to the soul may turn aside from the truth, but he who would be saved must keep his eye on Jesus. By beholding Christ he will learn to hate sin, that has brought to his Redeemer suffering and death. By beholding, his faith is made strong, and he comes to know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." The sinner sees Jesus as he is, full of compassion and tender love, and by beholding the manifestation of his great love toward fallen man in his sufferings of Calvary, he is transformed in character. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 1}
While our salvation is wholly dependent upon Jesus, yet we have a work to do in order that we shall be saved. The apostle says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The work that we are to do is not independent of what God is to do, but a work of cooperation with God. The power and the grace of God is to be wrought into the heart by the divine Worker, but some go astray here, claiming that man has a work to do that is wholly independent of any work of God. Another class take the other extreme, and say that man is free from all obligation, because God does the whole work--both the willing and doing. But the true ground to take is that the human will must be in subjection to the divine will. The will of man is not to be forced into cooperation with divine agencies, but must be voluntarily submitted. Man has no power of himself to work out his own salvation. Salvation must be the result of cooperation with divine power, and God will not do that for man which he can do for himself. Man is wholly dependent on the grace of Christ. He has no power to move one step in the direction of Christ unless the Spirit of God draws him. The Holy Spirit is continually drawing the soul, and will continue to draw until by persistent refusal the sinner grieves away the tender messenger of God. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 2}
In the heavenly councils it has been decided by what means and methods the grace of Christ shall prove effectual in saving the soul. And it is clear that unless the sinner consents to be drawn, unless he will cooperate with divine agencies, the end will not be attained. The work to be done is a united work. The divine and the human are to work together, and the sinner is to depend upon grace, while rendering willing obedience to the dictates of the Spirit of God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 3}
God has endowed men with reason and with intellectual faculties, but if these are untrained, left uncultivated, men will become like the savage heathen. The mind must be cultivated, and it is necessary that teachers present line upon line and precept upon precept, guiding and training the free-will moral agent so that he shall understand what it is to cooperate with God. God works in the human agent by the light of truth, and the mind, enlightened by truth, is capable of seeing truth in distinction from error. Open to the light of truth, free from prejudice, unbound by the opinions and traditions of men, the enlightened mind clearly sees the evidences of the truth, and believes it as from God. The man enlightened by truth will not call falsehood truth, and light darkness. The Spirit reveals to the mind the things of God, and to him who cooperates with God is the realization that a Divine Presence is hovering near. When the heart is open to Jesus and the mind responds to the truth, Jesus abides in the soul. The Spirit's energy works in the heart, and leads the inclinations toward Jesus. By living faith, the Christian places entire dependence on divine power, expecting that God will and do that which is according to his good pleasure. As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 4}
"As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name." "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." The Spirit of God is not commissioned to do our part of the work, either in willing or doing. It is the work of the human agent to cooperate with divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ is supplied to cooperate with our resolve. But it is not to be a substitute to do our work,--to work in spite of our resolutions and actions. Therefore, our success in the Christian life will not be because of an abundance of light and evidence, but will depend upon our acceptation of the light given, upon the rousing of the energies, and operating with the heavenly ministers appointed of God to work for the salvation of the soul. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 5} ..."
Also:
"... Will our brethren now awake to their responsibility? Will they be converted daily? Will they seek to know what it means to serve God daily? Will the Israel of God now awake? Will our church members now arise, and walk in the way of the Lord? Will every one now seek to walk in humility before God? Let the sacred work now be carried forward in whole-hearted consecration. There are great privileges and blessings for all who will humble themselves, and fully consecrate their hearts to God. Great light will be given to them. When men are willing to be transformed, then they will be exercised unto godliness. {PH020 9.1}
"And of His fulness have we all received, and grace for grace." "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Says the Saviour: "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." {PH020 9.2}
Shall this wealth of grace and power for service continue among us to be unappreciated [10] and turned from without relish or appetite? {PH020 9.3}
Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
Tit 2:13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
"... "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world!" I repeat the words of John, "Behold the Lamb of God!" We are to contemplate the character of Christ. We are to meditate upon the cross of Calvary; for it is the unanswerable argument of Christianity. The message we are to bear to the impenitent, the warning we are to give to the backslider, is, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world! Those who bring the message to the soul may turn aside from the truth, but he who would be saved must keep his eye on Jesus. By beholding Christ he will learn to hate sin, that has brought to his Redeemer suffering and death. By beholding, his faith is made strong, and he comes to know "the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent." The sinner sees Jesus as he is, full of compassion and tender love, and by beholding the manifestation of his great love toward fallen man in his sufferings of Calvary, he is transformed in character. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 1}
While our salvation is wholly dependent upon Jesus, yet we have a work to do in order that we shall be saved. The apostle says, "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." The work that we are to do is not independent of what God is to do, but a work of cooperation with God. The power and the grace of God is to be wrought into the heart by the divine Worker, but some go astray here, claiming that man has a work to do that is wholly independent of any work of God. Another class take the other extreme, and say that man is free from all obligation, because God does the whole work--both the willing and doing. But the true ground to take is that the human will must be in subjection to the divine will. The will of man is not to be forced into cooperation with divine agencies, but must be voluntarily submitted. Man has no power of himself to work out his own salvation. Salvation must be the result of cooperation with divine power, and God will not do that for man which he can do for himself. Man is wholly dependent on the grace of Christ. He has no power to move one step in the direction of Christ unless the Spirit of God draws him. The Holy Spirit is continually drawing the soul, and will continue to draw until by persistent refusal the sinner grieves away the tender messenger of God. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 2}
In the heavenly councils it has been decided by what means and methods the grace of Christ shall prove effectual in saving the soul. And it is clear that unless the sinner consents to be drawn, unless he will cooperate with divine agencies, the end will not be attained. The work to be done is a united work. The divine and the human are to work together, and the sinner is to depend upon grace, while rendering willing obedience to the dictates of the Spirit of God. "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 3}
God has endowed men with reason and with intellectual faculties, but if these are untrained, left uncultivated, men will become like the savage heathen. The mind must be cultivated, and it is necessary that teachers present line upon line and precept upon precept, guiding and training the free-will moral agent so that he shall understand what it is to cooperate with God. God works in the human agent by the light of truth, and the mind, enlightened by truth, is capable of seeing truth in distinction from error. Open to the light of truth, free from prejudice, unbound by the opinions and traditions of men, the enlightened mind clearly sees the evidences of the truth, and believes it as from God. The man enlightened by truth will not call falsehood truth, and light darkness. The Spirit reveals to the mind the things of God, and to him who cooperates with God is the realization that a Divine Presence is hovering near. When the heart is open to Jesus and the mind responds to the truth, Jesus abides in the soul. The Spirit's energy works in the heart, and leads the inclinations toward Jesus. By living faith, the Christian places entire dependence on divine power, expecting that God will and do that which is according to his good pleasure. As fast as the soul resolves and acts in accordance with the light that is revealed, the Spirit takes the things of God and gives more light to the soul. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 4}
"As many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believed on his name." "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only-begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth." The Spirit of God is not commissioned to do our part of the work, either in willing or doing. It is the work of the human agent to cooperate with divine agencies. As soon as we incline our will to harmonize with God's will, the grace of Christ is supplied to cooperate with our resolve. But it is not to be a substitute to do our work,--to work in spite of our resolutions and actions. Therefore, our success in the Christian life will not be because of an abundance of light and evidence, but will depend upon our acceptation of the light given, upon the rousing of the energies, and operating with the heavenly ministers appointed of God to work for the salvation of the soul. {ST, February 12, 1894 par. 5} ..."
Also:
"... Will our brethren now awake to their responsibility? Will they be converted daily? Will they seek to know what it means to serve God daily? Will the Israel of God now awake? Will our church members now arise, and walk in the way of the Lord? Will every one now seek to walk in humility before God? Let the sacred work now be carried forward in whole-hearted consecration. There are great privileges and blessings for all who will humble themselves, and fully consecrate their hearts to God. Great light will be given to them. When men are willing to be transformed, then they will be exercised unto godliness. {PH020 9.1}
"And of His fulness have we all received, and grace for grace." "My grace is sufficient for thee: for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Says the Saviour: "All power is given unto Me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost; teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you; and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." {PH020 9.2}
Shall this wealth of grace and power for service continue among us to be unappreciated [10] and turned from without relish or appetite? {PH020 9.3}
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
The problem with David Cloud's material, is that he cites all manner of individual Adventist material, which is not official Doctrine. He does cite some of the material of sister White, and all that is accepted as far as it is correctly cited, written.
However, in order to truly address Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, in what we actually teach and believe as a world church, he must address what we teach from scripture, and what is called the 'spirit of prophecy' (aka, the testimony of Jesus, which was given to sister White). Individual Seventh-day Adventists have written all manner of things, and some things which are not approved, nor sanctioned by the world church body (and some in fact contrary to it (being heresy), such as Ford, Brinsmead, Sequierra, Canright, etc). So, to merely quote a bunch of authors within the Seventh-day Adventist body (even if in good standing), does not doctrine make. Every single author would have to be individually checked by the scripture and the spirit of prophecy. It makes for a lot of unnecessary time, when if David Cloud really wanted to write against what Seventh-day Adventists teach, he should have stuck to "the law and the testimony" (Isaiah 8:20), and if it is not found written therein, you can pretty much know it is not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.
This is the first major issue with David Cloud's work. It may be comparable to quoting a baptist commentary, by an individual baptist, say John Gill, etc, but would it represent all baptist theology at every point? Would it represent at every point the IFB? Of course not. Therefore, individual works, do not necessarily represent the body of believers actual doctrines. This should have been obvious to David Cloud. I admire some of the work on the KJB, but to those who think themselves "cult-experts" really ought to leave well enough alone, and stick to what they actually know.
However, in order to truly address Seventh-day Adventist doctrine, in what we actually teach and believe as a world church, he must address what we teach from scripture, and what is called the 'spirit of prophecy' (aka, the testimony of Jesus, which was given to sister White). Individual Seventh-day Adventists have written all manner of things, and some things which are not approved, nor sanctioned by the world church body (and some in fact contrary to it (being heresy), such as Ford, Brinsmead, Sequierra, Canright, etc). So, to merely quote a bunch of authors within the Seventh-day Adventist body (even if in good standing), does not doctrine make. Every single author would have to be individually checked by the scripture and the spirit of prophecy. It makes for a lot of unnecessary time, when if David Cloud really wanted to write against what Seventh-day Adventists teach, he should have stuck to "the law and the testimony" (Isaiah 8:20), and if it is not found written therein, you can pretty much know it is not Seventh-day Adventist doctrine.
This is the first major issue with David Cloud's work. It may be comparable to quoting a baptist commentary, by an individual baptist, say John Gill, etc, but would it represent all baptist theology at every point? Would it represent at every point the IFB? Of course not. Therefore, individual works, do not necessarily represent the body of believers actual doctrines. This should have been obvious to David Cloud. I admire some of the work on the KJB, but to those who think themselves "cult-experts" really ought to leave well enough alone, and stick to what they actually know.
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mailmandan
Active Member
W.E. Vine goes on to say - Because this Sabbath rest is the rest of God Himself, 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. Reminds me of justification and glorification. We “have been” justified by faith (Romans 5:1 - past tense with ongoing present results) yet it’s full fruition (salvation) is yet future when we receive our glorified bodies
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Another issue to take, is that while my own links to my own personal material (such as on Hebrews 4) is removed from this site by moderation (since it linked to another forum where it was already posted in convenience), such things as this OP are allowed to stand, which represent someone else's work, and who is not here to defend their own material, or to be asked questions about what they meant in any given place, and instead I am left to try to 'deal with it' with those whom most likely themselves have never bothered to read the OP material, or check the sources therein. I am just expected to deal with it. I could easily, but what is the point, since David Cloud is not here, and it would be to he I would respond?
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Perseus - Tufts, and Liddell & Scott say:
Sabbatis-mos [Sabbath - keeping] is a specialized word [from Sabbatizo, verb - Exodus 16:30; Leviticus 23:32, 26:34; 2 Chronicles 36:21, see also the LXX in all its uses; like as is the word Baptis-mos [G909], utilized [Mark 7:9, etc "βαπτισμους", literally thoroughly or totally washing] from Baptizo].
"Σαββα^τ-ισμός , ὁ,
A.a keeping of days of rest, Ep. Hebr.4.9, cf. Plu.2.166a (codd., βαπτισμούς Bentley)." - Perseus-Tufts-Edu; LSJ - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B2%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%BC%E1%BD%B8%CF%82&la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0057:entry=*sabbatismo/s-contents
" Σαββατισμός 1
a keeping of days of rest, NTest.
1 Σαββα^τισμός, οῦ, ὁ," - Perseus-Tufts-Edu; Middel Liddell - http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/morph?l=%CF%83%CE%B1%CE%B2%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%BC%E1%BD%B8%CF%82&la=greek#Perseus:text:1999.04.0058:entry=*sabbatismo/s-contents
Additionally:
σαββατισμός [Def, Origins, etc] - Search | com.com
or: http://zikkir.net/words/Σαββατισμός
Moreover:
"Noun:
sabbatismum
accusative singular of sabbatismus" - sabbatismum - Wiktionary
Thus we look for "sabbatismus", and we find:
"Etymology
From Ancient Greek σαββατισμός (sabbastismós, “Sabbath observance", "Sabbath-keeping”), from σαββατίζω (sabbastízō, “I Sabbatize, I keep the Sabbath, I observe the Sabbath”), from σάββατον (sábbaton, “Sabbath”), from Hebrew שַׁבָּת (shabát, “Sabbath”)
Noun
sabbatismus m (genitive sabbatismī); second declension
Sabbath observance, observance of the Sabbath, Sabbathkeeping, keeping of the Sabbath." - sabbatismus - Wiktionary
See also:
"sabbătismus, i, m., = σαββατισμός, a keeping of the Sabbath, Aug. Civ. Dei, 22, 30 fin.; Hier. Ep. 140, 8; id. in Isa. 16, 58, 13." - http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?name=ls&lang=la&word=sabbatismus&filter=CUTF8
"sabbătīzo, āre, v. n., = σαββατίζω, to observe the Sabbath, Tert. adv. Jud. 2 fin.; Hier. Ephes. 2, 12; Vulg. Exod. 16, 30; id. Lev. 25, 2." - http://archimedes.fas.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/dict?name=ls&lang=la&word=sabbatizo&filter=CUTF8
Furthermore:
Additional notation and cited sources for the Latin "sabbatismus" as listed in the following works:
Aug. Civ. Dei, 22, 30 fin.; Hier. Ep. 140, 8; id. in Isa. 16, 58, 13:
Aug. Civ. Dei, 22, 30 fin.; =
[Latin] St. Augustine, De Civitate Dei, 22, 30 fin. =
[English] St. Augustine, The City of God, [Book] 22, [Chapter] 30 fin. -
[Latin Translation, Pages 422-425] - http://archive.org/stream/decivitatedeili01augu#page/422/mode/2up
http://archive.org/stream/decivitatedeili01augu#page/424/mode/2up
[Specifically see the Latin, Page 425, Line 3, 3rd Word from the Left]“...expressi, iste sabbatismus evidentius apparebit, quoniam septi-mus” -
Hier. Ep. 140, 8 =
[Latin] Hieronymus Epistulae. 140, 8 =
[English] Hieronymus [aka Eusebius 'Jerome'] Letter [Chapter] 140, [Section] 8 -
[Latin Translation; Specifically see the Latin, Epistola CXL [140] (al. 139; script. circ. an. 418); Ad Cyprianum Presbyterum [To Cyprian the Presbyter [Priest]], Section 8, Line 14, 11th Word from the Left] “... postea venire septenarium numerum, et octonarium, in quo verus exercetur sabbatismus, et circumcisionis puritas ...” - http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/epist/epist04.htm
[English Translation, see Jerome's Letter 140, To Cyprian the Presbyter [Priest], quoted in “The Inquirer” Volume II, page 323 subnote paragraph 1] “...and that then will come the seventh and the eighth number, in which the true Sabbath is kept, and the purity of circumcision is restored.” - http://books.google.com/books?id=-UEEAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
and also see here: http://exlaodicea.wordpress.com/2012/03/13/when-will-the-lord-return/
id. in Isa. 16, 58, 13 =
[Latin] idem. in [Hieronymus Epistulae.] Iesaiam Commentarii Liber 16, 58, 13; [aka “Eusebii Hieronymi Stridonensis Presbyteri Commentariorum in Isaiam Prophetam libri duodeviginti; liber decimus sextus”] =
[English] “also” in the Hieronymus [Eusebius 'Jerome'] Epistle [Letter] the Isaiah Commentary, [Book] 16, [Chapter] 58, [Verse] 13.
[Latin Translation; Specifically see the Latin, 16th Word from the Left] “...manus suas, nec movet pedes, et suas faciat voluntates: iste celebrat sabbata Domini delicata. Qui sabbatismus...” - http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/comm_isa/isa16.htm
[English Translation, personal partial] “...the Sabbath of the Lord. That day of rest...
Both Sources Found - http://www.patrologia-lib.ru/patrolog/hieronym/
I personally think "Vine" was out of his league.
Yes...the ten commandments are still in effect...all ten...
we are NOT under Mosaic law.
We are under the NT . law of Christ....it includes one day in seven to be set apart in a positive way unto God.
We get to worship
We get to set aside one day in seven, apart from our 6 days of work.
mailmandan
Active Member
I personally think Vine was spot on.
Sabbath rest (4520) (sabbatismos from sabbatízo = keep the Sabbath) literally means a keeping of a sabbath or a keeping of days of rest. It is used in this passage not in the literal sense (meaning to keep a specific day, the "Sabbath" day) but to describe a period of rest for God’s people which is modeled after and is a fulfillment of the traditional Sabbath.
W E Vine adds that "sabbatismos, “a Sabbath-keeping,” is used in Heb 4:9, rv, “a sabbath rest,” kjv marg., “a keeping of a sabbath” (akin to sabbatizo, “to keep the Sabbath,” used, e.g., in Ex 16:30, not in the NT); here the sabbath-keeping is the perpetual sabbath “rest” to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son, in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Law. Because this sabbath “rest” is the “rest” of God Himself, He 4:10, its full fruition is yet future, though believers now enter into it. In whatever way they enter into divine “rest,” that which they enjoy is involved in an indissoluble relation with God. (Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words)
Vine in his collected writings adds this note - There remains therefore a sabbath rest [a sabbatismos, or sabbath-keeping] for the people of God.—no sooner had His handiwork been marred by sin than God began to work with a view to man’s redemption and to the restoration of the enjoyment of the rest of communion with Him. Hence all the pre-figurative sacrifices and types and shadows in the Old Testament. The work of redemption having been accomplished on the Cross, God raised Him from the dead, seated Him at His right hand and rested once more.
Wuest - The writer uses here a different Greek word for “rest.” In his previous references to the idea of rest, he has used katapausis, meaning “a cessation from activity,” thus “a rest,” a general word for the idea of rest. Now, he uses sabbatismos, the word used of the Sabbath rest. The word points back to God’s original rest, and speaks of the ideal rest. It is a Sabbath rest because the believer reaches a definite stage of attainment and has satisfactorily accomplished a purpose, as God did when He finished the work of creation. It is not the believer’s rest into which he enters and in which he participates, but in God’s unique, personal rest in which the believer shares. (Hebrews Commentary)
Thayer writes that sabbatismos refers to "the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians."
Marvin Vincent writes that "The sin and unbelief of Israel were incompatible with that (sabbatismos) rest. It must remain unappropriated until harmony with God is restored. The Sabbath-rest is the consummation of the new creation in Christ (Ed: Which will not be fully consummated until we enter into the state of glorification and into the presence of the very one Who Himself is the Source and Essence of Rest!), through whose priestly mediation reconciliation with God will come to pass.
Sabbatismos is used here to indicate the perpetual Sabbath rest to be enjoyed uninterruptedly by believers in their fellowship with the Father and the Son under the New Covenant in contrast to the weekly Sabbath under the Old Covenant of the Law. In this verse the writer is referring to a divine rest into which the believers enter in their relationship with God not just in eternity future but (in my opinion) also in the here and now while still on earth (albeit our spiritual rest will not be perfected until we reach glory in the presence of God).
Craig Evans…
The author of Hebrews admonishes Jewish Christians to enter God’s “rest” (Heb 3–4). The author infers from Scripture and Israel’s history that “there remains a sabbath rest [sabbatismos] for the people of God” (Heb 4:9).
The reference here is not to weekly Sabbaths or to any particular holy day, but to the eschatological fulfillment of God’s will.
At this time all believers will enter God’s rest, or sabbath. (Dictionary of New Testament Background : A Compendium of Contemporary Biblical Scholarship)
Walter Elwell writes that "the author speaks of a Sabbath rest (Gk. sabbatismos) again to connect the rest that the believer will obtain with the rest of God (He 4:4; Ge 2:2, 3). It refers not to the weekly Sabbath but to eternal salvation as different from and following upon this life of work. It should not be thought that this rest is inactivity, however, for God’s rest is not (Jn 5:17). Again, note the author’s characteristic emphasis on the futurity of salvation. (Evangelical Commentary on the Bible)
The renowned Jewish author Alfred Edersheim in discussion of the feast in Jerusalem in John 5 has this note that relates to the accurate interpretation of sabbatismos…
While they (the Jews) were discussing the niceties of what constituted labour on a Sabbath, such as what infringed its sacred rest or what constituted a burden, multitudes of them who laboured and were heavy laden were left to perish in their ignorance.
That was the Sabbath, and the God of the Sabbath of Pharisaism; this the rest, the enlightenment, the hope for them who laboured and were heavy laden, and who longed and knew not where to find the true Sabbatismos!
Unger commenting on Hebrews 4:9,10 writes that "Redemptive rest is available for God’s people. These verses refer to the rest called sabbath-keeping (sabbatismos, ‘a state of rest from labor’) which involves the believer’s resting completely in a perfect work of redemption (Heb 4:3,4) as God rested from a perfect work of creation, Heb 4:10. This rest of redemption reposes wholly in the work of the Cross, and ceases from all self-effort, human merit or legalistic claim as a means either to salvation or sanctification, 10 (cf. Ep 2:8, 9, 10). It projects the victory of faith in conquest over spiritual enemies (the world, the flesh and the devil). (The new Unger's Bible handbook)
The related word sabbaton is used in Colossians…
Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath (sabbaton) day-- things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ. (Col 2:16; 2:17-notes)
Comment: Jesus fulfilled the Jewish regulations and celebrations by achieving perfectly the intentions they (and related to our present passage, the Sabbath day in the OT) only pointed to. The Sabbath Day was like a "giant finger" pointing to something far better. To go back to the old worn out picture is to miss His available rest. How ironic and how tragic. The very rest some attempt to attain by keeping legalistically the Sabbath they actually lose because they miss God's true rest, which was not a day but a Person, Christ Jesus! It is also relevant to note that the command to observe the Sabbath is the only one of the Ten Commandments not repeated after Pentecost.
Hebrews 4:8-10 Commentary | Precept Austin
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I agree. It even agrees with the sources I cited. Nice to know you also agree.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
I agree. Scripture agrees.
Rom_7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
I have read all of the scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, and I do not know of any "Jewish regulations" therein. I know of God's types, even of the sacrifice in Genesis 3, before a single "jew" existed.
Alofa Atu
Well-Known Member
Here is Edershiem's full quotation, contextually, (on the EG White CD Rom by the way):
"... With all reverence, we can in some measure understand, what feelings must have stirred the heart of Jesus, in view of this suffering, waiting great multitude. Why, indeed, did He go into those five porches, since He had neither disease to cure, nor cry for help and come to Him from those who looked for relief to far other means? Not, surely, from curiosity. But as one longs to escape from the stifling atmosphere of a scene of worldly pomp, with its glitter and unreality, into the clearness of the evening-air, so our Lord may have longed to pass from the glitter and unreality of those who held rule in the Temple, or who occupied the seat of Moses in their Academies, to what was the atmosphere of His Life on earth, His real Work, among that suffering, ignorant multitude, which, in its sorrow, raised a piteous, longing cry for help where it had been misdirected to seek it.
And thus we can here also perceive the deep internal connection between Christ’s miracle of healing the impotent man and the address of mingled sadness and severity, 15 in which He afterwards set before the Masters in Israel the one truth fundamental in all things. We have only, so to speak, to reverse the formal order and succession of that discourse, to gain an insight into what prompted Jesus to go to Bethesda, and by His power to perform this healing. 16 He had been in the Temple at the Feast; He had necessarily been in contact—it could not be otherwise, when in the --Temple--with the great ones of --Israel--. What a stifling atmosphere there of glitter and unreality! What had He in common with those who received glory one of another, and the glory which cometh from the One only God they sought not? 17 How could such men believe? The first meaning, and the object of His Life and Work, was as entirely different from their aims and perceptions, as were the respective springs of their inner being. They clung and appealed to Moses; to Moses, whose successors they claimed to be, let them go! 18 Their elaborate searching and sifting of the Law in hope that by a subtle analysis of its every particle and letter, by inferences from, and a careful drawing of a prohibitive hedge around, its letter, they would possess themselves of eternal life, 19 what did it all come to? Utterly self-deceived, and far from the truth in their elaborate attempts to outdo each other in local ingenuity, they would, while rejecting the Messiah sent from God, at last become the victims of a coarse Messianic impostor. 20 And even in the present, what was it all? Only the letter—the outward! All the lessons of their past miraculous history had been utterly lost on them. What had there been of the merely outward in its miracles and revelations? 21 It had been the witness of the Father; but this was the very element which, amidst their handling of the external form, they perceived not. Nay, not only the unheard Voice of the Father, but also the heard voice of the Prophets—a voice which they might have heard even in John the Baptist. They heard, but did not perceive it—just as, in increasing measure, Christ’s sayings and doings, and the Father and His testimony, were not perceived. And so all hastened on to the judgment of final unbelief, irretrievable loss, and self-caused condemnation. 22 It was all utterly mistaken; utter, and, alas! guilty perversion, their elaborate trifling with the most sacred things, while around them were suffering, perishing men, stretching lame hands into emptiness, and wailing out their mistaken hopes into the eternal silence.
While they were discussing the niceties of what constituted labour on a Sabbath, such as what infringed its sacred rest or what constituted a burden, multitudes of them who laboured and were heavy laden were left to perish in their ignorance. That was the Sabbath, and the God of the Sabbath of Pharisaism; this the rest, the enlightenment, the hope for them who laboured and were heavy laden, and who longed and knew not where to find the true Sabbatismos! Nay, if the Christ had not been the very opposite of all that Pharisaism sought, He would not have been the Orient Sun of the Eternal Sabbath. But the God Who ever worked in love, Whose rest was to give rest, Whose Sabbath to remove burdens, was His Father. He knew Him; He saw His working; He was in fellowship of love, of work, of power with Him. He had come to loose every yoke, to give life, to bring life, to be life—because He had life: life in its fullest sense. For, contact with Him, whatever it may be, gives life: to the diseased, health; to the spiritually dead, the life of the soul; to the dead in their graves, the life of resurrection. And all this was the meaning of Holy Scripture when it pointed forward to the Lord’s Anointed; and all this was not merely His own, but the Father’s Will—the --Mission-- which He had given Him, the Work which He had sent Him to do. 23
Translate this into deed, as all His teachings have been, are, and will be, and we have the miraculous cure of the impotent man with its attendant circumstances. Or, conversely, translate that deed, with its attendant circumstances, into words, and we have the discourse of our Lord. Moreover, all this is fundamental to the highest understanding of our Lord’s history. And, therefore, we understand how many years afterwards the beloved disciple gave a place to this miracle, when, in the full ripeness of spiritual discernment, he chose for record in his Gospel from among those many signs which Jesus truly did, 24 only five as typical, like the five porches of the great Bethesda of His help to the impotent, or like the five divisions into which the Psalter of praise was arranged. As he looked back, from the height where he stood at his journey’s end, to where the sun was setting in purple and golden glory far across the intervening landscape, amidst its varying scenes this must have stood out before his sight, as what might show to us that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing we might have life through His Name. 25..." - The Life And Times Of Jesus the Messiah; Book III - Jordan to the Mount of Transfiguration; Chapter 12 - At the Unknown Feast in Jerusalem
Yes indeed, the True Sabbath-keeping (sabbatismos, as God did, God rested, in the beginning the 7th day, Hebrews 4, which "remaineth"), for the Pharisees had bogged it down with man-made traditions, negating the commandment of God itself. Jesus set men Free from Sin (Matthew 1:21; Luke 4:15-19) that they may truly Keep God's Commandments (John 14:15; Exodus 20:6) by His Grace through Faith.
Joh_5:14 Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Joh 5:16 And therefore did the Jews persecute Jesus, and sought to slay him, because he had done these things on the sabbath day.
Perfect. That's what I stated in my Hebrews 4 study, which you obviously didn't even read.