Grace

If He gives, without the ability to refuse, He forces.

If He gives, without the abiltity to refuse, to ALL - the Universalists are right.

If He gives, without the ability to refuse, to a few - He lied when He said He sends His message of Grace unto Salvation to all men.

I know that ~I~ reached out to God.

I'd heard the story of Christ, and obviously God had, as His word said, "offered His message of grace unto salvation to all," (to me) - I had ignored Him until one particular night when I told Him that yes, I wanted what He offered.

If you didn't actually accept Christ - are you really saved?

I mean, all word games aside, you people are actually saying that man does not need to accept Christ - God will somehow "do it for you."

Some of you don't even profess to have accepted Christ out of love. You just say, "Because He told me to." That's just - SAD.

 

"But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. We all like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on Him the iniquity of us all." (Isa 53:5-6)

MATTHEW 11:28 "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

JOHN 1:29b "Behold the LAMB OF GOD, which TAKETH AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD."

"He that believeth in Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God ." John 3:18

"For when we were yet without strength, in due time CHRIST DIED FOR THE UNGODLY. " Romans 5:6

2 Corinithians 5:19
"To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES UNTO THEM; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. "

"For there in one God, and one Mediator between God and men, the Man CHRIST JESUS, Who gave Himself a RANSOM FOR ALL, to be testified in due time." (1Timothy 2:5-6).

" But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God SHOULD TASTE DEATH FOR EVERY MAN." (Hebrews 2:9).

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, EVEN DENYING THE LORD THAT BOUGHT THEM, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1)

"And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the SAVIOR OF THE WORLD." (1 John 4:14).

1 John 2:2
"And He is the propitiation for OUR SINS: and not for ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD. "

John 1:12
"But as many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them THAT BELIEVE ON HIS NAME."

John 3:16
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

John 3:17
"For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the WORLD through Him MIGHT BE SAVED. "

II Thessalonians 2:10b
"They perish because they refused to love the truth, and so be saved."

Look over these verbs in those sentences: "come to me" "beleive" "Receive" "refuse" "denying"

Look at the nouns: "whosoever" "all men" "the world" "Ransom for all"

Salvation is NOT passive.

 

The believe that only some men are offered the grace of God is limited atonement.
The believe that all men are offered Grace, and only some respond is unlimited atonement.

Dr. John F. Walvoord is considered perhaps the world`s foremost interpreter of biblical prophecy. He was a member of the Dallas Theological Seminary faculty for fifty years from 1936 to 1986. He served as president and professor of systematic theology at Dallas Theological Seminary from 1952 to 1986. He has served as chancellor at that institution since that time. He holds A.B. and D.D. degrees from Wheaton College; an A. M. degree from Texas Christian University; a Th.B., Th.M., and Th.D. from Dallas Theological Seminary; and a Litt.D. from Liberty Baptist Seminary. Dr. Walvoord is known worldwide for his evangelical scholarship in Christology, pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit), and Bible prophecy. Dallas Theological Seminary, one of the world`s largest, is recognized for its commitment to the inerrancy of the Scriptures, premillennial theology, and biblical preaching and teaching.

This was his response to a letter requesting a clarification on this position. (Chafer is the founder of Southwestern).

"In regard to what is known as 'unlimited atonement,' Dr. Lewis Sperry Chafer held this in his teachings and writings and also incorporated teh concept but not the precise words into the doctrinal statement of the seminary. He held that CHRIST DIED WITH THE PURPOSE OP PROVIDING REDEMPTION FOR ALL even though all would not be saved."

In the last years of his life, John Calvin wrote this:

"Christ suffered for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD and the goodness of God is offered unto all men without distinction, his blood being shed not for a part of the world only, but for the whole human race; for although in the world nothing is found worthy of the favor of God, yet he HOLDS OUT THE PROPITIATION TO THE WHOLE WORLD, since WITHOUT EXCEPTION HE SUMMONS ALL TO THE FAITH OF CHRIST, which is nothing else than the door unto hope."
-----

I also recommend this article:

http://www.biblebelievers.net/Calvinism/kjcalvn7.htm

The Death Christ Died - A Case for Unlimited Atonement

 

Texas,
Why did you accept, when many have heard the same message you have and often times heard it more often, did not accept?

You say you "accepted Christ out of love" where did this love come from and why do you possess it and others obviously do/have not?

<><
IHS,
cbc

 

"So in essence God offers the grace of salvation to those whom He pleases. "

Yes, and the bible says that God desires that all men be saved.

 

You say you "accepted Christ out of love" where did this love come from and why do you possess it and others obviously do/have not?

-----

The bible answers that one, Corry. "God so loved the world." God's love was offered, and I responded to it. God's love is offered to EVERYONE. Some (the bible says) refuse it.

This happens everyday in the world, I'm not sure why you people have such a hard time with the concept when it comes to Almighty God.

Some parents who love their children the child's entire life discover that their children reject their love.

Spouses who dearly love their life-partner find themselves standing in divorce court because the person they love rejects their love.

Children desperatly love parents, only to find that the parents don't love them back.

God ~is~ love.
God offered love to everyone.

Do you actually dare to refute every single verse in the bible that says God loved the world, or that God desired for all to repent, or that God loves sinners? How can you? How dare you?

The bible actually says they perish because they refused truth. Truth is that God is love.

They perish because they refused God.

The bible CLEARLY says that He who does not believe is condemned. Not, "he who is not allowed to believe," not, "he that is not chosen."

God offered love and mercy and grace to ALL men.

God, omnipotent, all powerful, Alpha and Omega - ~ ALLOWED ~ - men to return his love or reject his love because that is how REAL love is, and Almight, Omnipotent, all powerful, Alpha and Omega DESERVES real love and nothing less.

Yes, of course God shows mercy on who it pleases Him to show mercy on. His holy word says He sends the message of grace unto salvation to ALL men. His holy word says that HE desires that all men be saved unto repetence, and His holy word states ONLY ONE condition exists - accepting his love.

 

And to the person who said, "Well, God is jealous, but we shouldn't be." What you said is absolute heresy, because you are trying to build an argument that men should NOT strive to be Christ like.

And - frankly, you're wrong anyway in the way you are interpreting scripture.

The bible never says, "Thou shalt not be jealous." It says, "Do not covet."


cov·et ( P ) Pronunciation Key (kvt)
v. cov·et·ed, cov·et·ing, cov·ets
v. tr.
To feel blameworthy desire for (that which is another's)"

Jealous:
jeal·ous ( P ) Pronunciation Key (jls)
adj.

1) Fearful or wary of being supplanted; 2) Apprehensive of losing affection or position.
3)Resentful or bitter in rivalry
4) Vigilant in guarding something:[/b}We are jealous of our good name.
5Intolerant of disloyalty or infidelity; autocratic: a jealous God.

God "not wanting other God's before Him," is NOT the same as you craving your neighbor's possessions so much that you become bitter because you don't have them.

And YES - we ARE supposed to be like Christ.

(How can you Calvinist expect people to take you seriously when you try to present arguments like "God doesn't expect us to be Christ like."???)

 

Not with a proper understanding of regeneration.

Jesus compared it to physical birth.

While a child doesn't "choose" to be conceived and born... it would be incorrect to say that they were forced to do something against their will.

What would be correct to say is that they did something completely consistent with their nature.

An unregenerate person is spiritually dead. They do by their OWN FREE WILL what spiritually dead people do- they reject God and His offer of salvation.

It is only when the Holy Spirit performs the miracle of spiritual regeneration that a person of their OWN FREE WILL has a nature that will accept Christ as Savior.

This isn't really a matter of chronology either... it is a matter of preeminence... What is the prime cause for an individual's salvation? Their ability to make a good choice or God's grace?

Your condition does not prove your conclusion... even if it accurately represented the Doctrines of Grace.

As do I. That isn't the question.

The question is "Why?". Why did you and I accept while others with equal opportunity and ability refused? We know biblically it cannot be because of our goodness. However, if we for whatever reason you can imagine choose well while another chooses wrongly then we did something "good" (of ourselves) that resulted directly in our salvation.

Or rather yet- You ignored it until God quickened your spirit... you ignored it until He gave you spiritual ears to hear and eyes to see.... you ignored it so long as your unregenerate nature controlled that choice.

I did accept Christ and I am saved.

Nope. We are simply accepting all of what the Bible says about the subject. God elects? Yes. Man believes? Yes.

So unless children accept/choose their parents, they can't love them?

We love Him because (and only because) He graciously changed our nature into one that willingly chooses to love Him. Our old nature loved self and sin... It hated God and righteousness.

 

You aren't answering the questions.

Why did you respond? What was the cause? What differentiated you from others who physically hear and understand the same offer?

 

Scott,

I did answer the question. You just don't see the answer you want to hear so you reject it and claim it isn't an answer.

God sent His message of grace to EVERYONE. God offered His love to everyone. I responded to that love because I had the free will to choose who to love.

I responded to the message of God's love. I responded to the testimony of Christ. To the words of a God that said, "I love everyone, and I don't have favorites. Rich or poor, no matter how bad, I love you." Of course there are fools who reject it, but that is NOT God's fault. He not only OFFERED Adam and Eve total paradise, He GAVE it to them, and they rejected His will. By your theories, God MADE them sin. By your theories, somehow it was impossible for them to NOT sin against God that day. That's just hogwash. That's satan speaking. "Don't blame man, its really God's fault."

What you are talking about isn't even love. What you are talking about makes God less than God, and to boot, makes Him evil. You aren't talking about a God that offers love, or came to save the world. You are talking about a god that LIED when He said he didn't come to condemn the world. You are talking about a god that CAME to condemn the majority of the world because according to you, God didn't even care enough about the majority to offer them the call of grace.

You are claiming spiritual rape. You are saying that I had no choice in returning God's love. That He snatched me out of heaven, forced His will into me so that He could have someone worship Him on earth. That is just gross.

That isn't the God I know. That's Baal. That's Apollo. That's an insecure, weak, cowardly god who is afraid to let people the freedom of loving Him in return.

God Yahweh didn't HAVE to force men to love Him. God Yahweh, Jehovah, the Great I Am has ALWAYS, offered man the ability to follow Him. Did He show up at Abraham's tent and say, "Follow me or I'll kill you??" NO! He appeared and said, "Follow me and I will be your God." It was an OFFER, not enslavement.

 

I put this elsewhere, but since this thread is here. I'm reposting it here as well.

Permiting a servant freedom-of-action is not a sign of weakness.

In fact, it is the ULTIMATE act of authority in that ONLY the King can offer a pardon.

ONLY the King can give you the right to accept or refuse.

Freewill does not mean God ~could~ not force man to choose.

Freewill means God ~allows~ man to choose.

Calvinism, in teaching that all men have sinned, and some simply are not reached out to be the holy spirit - is, in essence, saying, "God does not call them to repent."

Follow that to a logical conculsion and you build a case for the philosophy professor, not God.

We accept these facts:
A) God knows all - ergo He knows men will sin.
B) God is all powerful - ergo He has the power to stop men from sinning.
C) Man sins.
D) God hates sin.
E) God loves sinners.
f) God IS love.

With these facts in mind. Why does sin continue?

Possiblity 1: God is not omnipotent.
God didn't really know they were sinning.
This violates given A.

Possiblity 2: God is not all powerful.
God couldn't prevent sin.
This violates given B.

Possibility 3: God is evil.
Even though He is all knowing, and all powerful, and even though only He can prevent sin, He
chooses not to call sinners to repentence ergo. He makes a deliberate choice to allow sin to continue unchecked in the world.
(And before you scream, no, not unchecked - if sin entered the world through 1 man, - allowing it to move through the world in even 1 person not called to repent - is choosing to allow it to move unchecked.)

This Violates Given C by indicating that the all powerful, all knowing God chose to do nothing to stop sin. Thus putting the responsiblity for sin back on God, instead of man, since God isn't even telling them that they need to repent.

This Violates Given D - In that it states that the all knowing, all powerful God has chosen to not even do the bare minimum to stop sin - ergo - He must not REALLY hate sin.

This Violates Given E - In that He doesn't even present the option of repentence or the possibilty of salvaton to all sinners. Ergo, He doesn't love the world, doesn't love sinners. He just loves a part of the world, and a few sinners.

This Violates Given F - In that He is not actually the emobidiment of love if He chooses not to even offer salvation to the majority of the world, and chooses not to even invite the majority of the world to repent.

This also disagrees with numerous scriptures. It disagrees with scriptures saying He sent His son to save the world, not condemn the world. It conflicts with scriptures saying that He desires that all men repent unto salvation. It conflicts with scriptures saying He is holy, in that it indicates that He allowed sin to spread without even calling men to repent. It conflicts with the scriptures that say He IS love. It conflicts with the scriptures that say sin entered the world through man.

Possibilty 4:
With the full authority of the King of Kings, God has called all sinners, ergo all men, to Him, and has offered each sinner a royal pardon, but, like MOST Kings, HE PERMITS the guilty to accept this offer of mercy or to refuse the offer of mercy.

This AGREES with Given A
He knows all, ergo He knows that ALL have sinned.

This also agrees with scripture that say all have sinned and scriptures that say He sent His message of grace that leads to salvation to all men.

This Agrees with Given B
ONLY the all powerful King of Kings can issue a royal pardon to anyone, but especially to those already condemned as guilty. A court can confict, a court may even reverse a conviction, but only the King of Kings can offer a pardon.

Only the King of Kings has the authority to allow servants a choice of acceptance or rejection of a royal decree.

Only the King of Kings has the authority to set the terms of the pardon. God's terms - accept my gift of Grace.

This also agrees with scripture. God sent, God called, God offered -- God is the authority.

This agrees with Given C
Man is the sinner. The responsiblity of sin is on man, not on God.

This agrees with Given D
God hates sin, and hating sin, God calls all men to repent. He doesn't turn His head the other way and let it continue. He doesn't ignore some sinners, only calling a few to repent from sin. He calls ALL MEN to repent from sin.
Again, this is supported by scripture.

This agrees with Given E
By offering grace to all men, God displays a patience and love to all men.
This is also supported by many scriptures, including the Great Commission that said to go to the world.

This agrees with Given F
As the very nature of God is love - He displays it here, by offering ALL unworthy men salvation, and yet permitting men to choose whether to follow Him or reject Him, not forcing them.


There are more Givens in these equations.

God is Just.
In fact, when Sodom was destroyed, and they bargained with God for men, the question came up. "Is God not just?"
God agreed to spare two entire cities of the worst kind of sinners rather than destroy a few righteous men.

God is JUST, but His justice leans toward mercy.

God says, "I desire mercy."

God says He desires that all men repent.

Possibilty four presents an all powerful, all knowing, merciful, just, loving, creator who hates sin, but loves the sinner.

How can you accept any other possibility?

 

The only response I know of to make to this entire thread is simply that Grace to me is that Christ shed His Blood for my sins and died for me so that I might have LIFE.In my natural UNREGENERATED state all I could do was hear the truth but in order to RECEIVE it,God by His Holy Spirit had to impart to me the DESIRE to do so since my unregenerate sin nature was incapable of doing so in and of itself.God did the WORK of salvation at CALVARY,God does the CALLING to lost man,and God by His unmerited GRACE gives man the ability to SEE the truth....and finally the DESIRE to receive the truth.Bottom line is....Salvation is ALL OF THE LORD.The ONLY thing man can do in the "power" of his sinful nature in regard to salvation is REJECT it....which sadly is what most will do because of the wicked,fallen,sinful nature they are ALL BORN WITH.How that must break the heart of our loving God after all He gave for man.There is no "spark of divinity" in the nature of man that will ever lead him or her to salvation.That is what makes GRACE so much more PRECIOUS to the child of God....God is so GOOD!Again...Salvation is ALL of God and NONE of man.

Greg Sr.

 

TexasSky

You keep claiming that the bible says God's grace is offered to all. I don't see any scripture quoted where the words "God's grace is offered to all" are found. I see a lot of "God's grace is given...", but not "offered".

I see "God so loved the world" and that is true, and I agree. But I don't see the words "grace is offered to all." Perhaps you could show me one scripture verse where the words, "God's grace is offered to all" is found; and I would really be impressed if you found one that added "so we could accept or reject according to our own free-will."

By the way, You said,

"I responded to the message of God's love. I responded to the testimony of Christ. To the words of a God that said, "I love everyone, and I don't have favorites. Rich or poor, no matter how bad, I love you." Of course there are fools who reject it..."

You now have occasion to boast! You claim you were not like the "fools who reject it..." meaning you were somehow, in and of yourself, better than they are because at least you had enough sense to accept Christ of your own "free-will", unlike the "fools who reject it."

Us poor "Calvinists" could never make such a claim, because to understand God's grace is to understand our own total inability to come to God without God changing our nature first. We respond to what God has done in dust and ashes, love and awe, but never with pride that we did anything ourselves, or with criticism of the "fools who reject it." We know they, like us, are unable to "accept" it, unless God pours out His mercy and grace upon them as well.

And that is what I pray for. I never pray, "God, don't interfer with their 'free-will', they will come to you or not, but don't draw them by the Spirit, or change their natures so they understand their own filthiness before you. As bad as hell is, it would be worse if you violated their 'free-will'. Anyway, I know you don't want a bunch of robots saying they love you, so just sit tight up there on the throne and don't interfer with men's decisions."

I thank God that He interfered in my life! I pray I never get over what He has done! OH, that I could be a robot and never fall short, or have an indecent thought, or grieve the Spirit of my Lord! That I might never loose my patience with those with prickly tongues that love to twist the words of God to fit what they want it to mean. OH, that I could always be pleasing in His sight.

 

"For God so loved the world..." (Not really the world just certain ones)

"...that He gave..." (Not really "gave" because it was His Son who volunteered"

"...His only begotten Son..." (I don't even want to start with the "not reallies" of that one.)

"...that whosoever believes in Him..." (Not really "whosoever" just those planned ahead of time with the rest not included) (Not really "believes" but only those who have been "programmed" by the Holy Spirit without their consent.)

"...should not perish..." (well, they shouldn't but they still might, depending on how well they perform)

"...but have everlasting life." (Not really now but later in heaven because the life they have now might not last forever. Again, depending on their cooperation with this supposed irresistible Holy Spirit)

Thanks, guys, for clearing these things up, I realize how complicated some of these verses can be for the simple folk. I guess God intended for the really, really, really, really educated philosophers to explain what He "REALLY' meant to say. (Tongue firmly in cheek and ducking for cover)

 

Artimaeus

I like your gremlin That is quite funny. No need to duck and cover with me, I am always ready to have a civil discussion with those who care to be civil.

The "whosoever" of John 3:16 was defined by Jesus in John 3:3-8, "Truly, Truly, I say to you, unles one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." (v.8) "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit"

The word for "where it wishes" denotes a deliberate action of the will. In this case, the Spirit, by deliberate action, is moving whereever He wills to cause men/women to be born again. No mention of the "freewill" of man here.

John 3 is a further explanation of John 1:13 that speaks directly to those who would believe for eternal life, "who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."

"nor of the will of man": That is a definitive rejection of "freewill" theology. The context is salvation and the "how" those who are God's children are "born". (In 3:3, the "born" is explained as "born again" by the Spirit)

This is grace. That while we were helpless in our sins, and without consideration of any work, thought or action on our part, God regenerated us by His Spirit, called us by His Spirit, sanctified us by His Spirit, and keeps us for the day of His return.

No way anyone can boast when salvation is all of God.

 

I heard this definition of God's grace, which I really like.

God's grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and giving man credit for it.

I will refrain from getting into the "other" discussion

 

Texas,
The question still is, why you? Why did you respond to God's love? Are you better than someone who did not respond? Did you have more love in you, were you more open, why did you do it?

jdcanady is right us poor calvinist have no room for boasting for we believe that God ouf of His mercy and according to His purpose saved us (meaning those saved not just calvinists) for His glory. We were an unworthy bunch, worthy only of Hell, yet He made us white as snow! Praise God!

<><
IHS,
cbc

 

Amen, Corry Cox

 

Corry,
Why not her?