Grace!

[2serve]

Hey yall,
As of late the Lord has really had me wrapped around the idea of Grace.
I'll tell you a little abuot it and if you would give me your own personal take on it and even experiences if you want. All that I ask is that you not argue with one another on this thread as I am quite serious and not fishing for a good ole Baptist Business meeting. I think that if we can share thoughts on this then we can all learn something here.

Ok here it goes and it's a very simple thought but runs very deep if you really consider it. We as Baptists and especially we as IFB's get very wrapped up in you have to do this and not do that or you aren't "right " with God. How much sense does that really make when compared to what the Bible says? The Bible says that our righteousness' is as filthy wrags. So you mean to tell me that my filthy wrags somehow buy me some kind of closer relationship with The Father? The Bible says that he is no respector of persons. Paul said in Romans 7 the the things that he would do he did not and the things that he would not that he did, he said that he saw a war within his own members. He also said elswhere that where sin did abound grace did much more abound.

So! Don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I think you would be wise to keep short tabs with God.
What we do or do not do has no bearing on whether or not we are "right with God". Grace is this. No matter your deeds once saved you are secure in him and he will keep you (as a brood?) and use you no matter the condition of your walk.
Something akin to the vessels of honor and dishonor. Is this not GRACE?

Again Please no arguing and bickering. Simply share your thoughts and experiences (and Bible) especially Bible.


:tonofbricks:

 

[canadyjd]

How you walk matters to God and it should be of primary importance to all of us.

Throughout scripture there is a theme of believers posessing a transformed life and producing fruit to authenicate that transformation.

Paul encourages believers to walk in a manner worthy of their calling. Those who do not are encouraged to examine themselves closely to see if they are really in the faith.

So, in a nutshell, I disagree with your premise that it doesn't matter how you walk.

peace to youraying:

 

[pinoybaptist]

One'e eternal standing with God has no bearing with one's walk here on earth, because one's eternal standing with God depended not on one's conduct, theology, or any of those things by which man supposes to judge the effectivity of Christ's blood and redemptive work on other men.
However, Scripture teaches that all of God's own will be quickened by the Spirit and will therefore manifest changes in their lives and thoughts, in other words, manifest their conversion.
More so, if these are exposed to the gospel, that is, the true, unadulterated teaching of the gospel by true teachers whose aim is to point to the cross and to the empty grave as the sole source and cause of their eternal redemption and from thence to teach the child of God to walk in the way of the Lord and the Kingdom, and rightly divide the word.
God's word in the Old Testament are full of "Do these, and I will do these, don't do these and I will also withold these" examples.
Paul's and Peter's admonitions in the New Testament likewise contain phrases such as "did thou steal, steal no more" and such showing that one's faith must be put into practice for one's practical justification.
Walk is important, to the true child of God.
Of course, in one's walk of the straight and narrow way, there are many pitfalls and stumblings that can happen, but have no fear, God holds your hand, not the other way around.

 

[Goldie]

One's eternal standing with God has no bearing with one's walk here on earth, because one's eternal standing with God depended not on one's conduct,

Our salvation isn't based on our conduct, but our beliefs. We have to learn to discern between salvation and discipleship.

theology, or any of those things by which man supposes to judge the effectivity of Christ's

One's salvation is based on one's theology, i.e., one's beliefs - if you don't believe in the theology that Jesus was born of a virgin, was the only begotten Son of God, died on the cross for your sins, was resurrected from the dead, I'd say one isn't saved. Surely by "theology" you actually meant "traditions"??

However, Scripture teaches that all of God's own will be quickened by the Spirit and will therefore manifest changes in their lives and thoughts, in other words, manifest their conversion.

Please clarify this sentence - by saying "changes in their lives and thoughts" - do you hold a reconstructionist view? Surely we are converted the day we believe on Him (Jesus Christ).

More so, if these are exposed to the gospel, that is, the true, unadulterated teaching of the gospel by true teachers whose aim is to point to the cross and to the empty grave as the sole source and cause of their eternal redemption and from thence to teach the child of God to walk in the way of the Lord and the Kingdom, and rightly divide the word.

Whose cross? Whose empty grave? What true teachers? Shouldn't we ourselves be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that people can turn from their unbelief, to belief in Him? So that they are saved by faith through His Grace. His Holy Spirit teaches us and helps us, not man.

God's word in the Old Testament are full of "Do these, and I will do these, don't do these and I will also withold these" examples.
Paul's and Peter's admonitions in the New Testament likewise contain phrases such as "did thou steal, steal no more" and such showing that one's faith must be put into practice for one's practical justification.

So are you saying we are justified by works? We have to discern of the root of a believer's faith and the fruit of a believer's faith. Romans talks about the root of a believer's faith, and James about the fruit of a believer's faith.

Walk is important, to the true child of God.
Of course, in one's walk of the straight and narrow way, there are many pitfalls and stumblings that can happen, but have no fear, God holds your hand, not the other way around.

Why is "walk" important to the true child of God? I'd say that FAITH is important to a true child of God, because that's what pleases God. Sometimes God allows the stumblings and pitfalls to happen - like he did with Job. But our true blessing will only happen once we are in heaven. There's no guarantee that a Christian will live a haopy life while still on this earth. Jesus confirmed this when He said we should take up our cross and follow Him.

 

[skypair]

2serve,

I think "grace" is like "luck." It always comes to those who seem the most "practiced" at their faith (as the "lucky" are at their skill).

The way this comes up personally is in golf. All the "lucky" guys have 1) had lessons and 2) had experience. I don't think we have "grace" by not exercising ourselves spiritually through Bible study, fellowship, giving, etc. See what I mean? You could keep on living as you did before you were saved and you wouldn't be seeing much grace in your life. In fact, 2Pet 1 says you might even forget you are saved!

skypair

 

[2serve]

2serve,

I think "grace" is like "luck." It always comes to those who seem the most "practiced" at their faith (as the "lucky" are at their skill).

The way this comes up personally is in golf. All the "lucky" guys have 1) had lessons and 2) had experience. I don't think we have "grace" by not exercising ourselves spiritually through Bible study, fellowship, giving, etc. See what I mean? You could keep on living as you did before you were saved and you wouldn't be seeing much grace in your life. In fact, 2Pet 1 says you might even forget you are saved!

skypair

I feel like you are very close to what I am suggesting.

Maybe I was to general because I was speaking of Grace in the most general sense. I agree with your Luck illustration but I was being far more general.

So let me try to be a little more specific if I can wihtout clouding the water. I understand the doctrine of Grace and the freeness of grace and all that. I am more addressing the experience of Grace.
It is a given that I am talking to and about Saved people. I am not the judge of any mans salvation but somewhere in there I feel like God limits the foolishness that his can get into before he reels them in.

How about this, you have a man who is saved and clearly not walking rightly, one day someone asks him of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't see any difference in the power with which God can use him or the child who is walking rightly. Now I know that this flies in the face of "Baptist" doctrine but I am more concerned about what my Lord taught. I guess what I'm saying is that we as human beings are so far removed from the action and process of Grace that we can have no real effect on it except where our actions build road brocks humanly speaking. I don't know that this clears it up any but I tried.

 

[ray Marshall]

Hey yall,
As of late the Lord has really had me wrapped around the idea of Grace.
I'll tell you a little abuot it and if you would give me your own personal take on it and even experiences if you want. All that I ask is that you not argue with one another on this thread as I am quite serious and not fishing for a good ole Baptist Business meeting. I think that if we can share thoughts on this then we can all learn something here.

Ok here it goes and it's a very simple thought but runs very deep if you really consider it. We as Baptists and especially we as IFB's get very wrapped up in you have to do this and not do that or you aren't "right " with God. How much sense does that really make when compared to what the Bible says? The Bible says that our righteousness' is as filthy wrags. So you mean to tell me that my filthy wrags somehow buy me some kind of closer relationship with The Father? The Bible says that he is no respector of persons. Paul said in Romans 7 the the things that he would do he did not and the things that he would not that he did, he said that he saw a war within his own members. He also said elswhere that where sin did abound grace did much more abound.

So! Don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I think you would be wise to keep short tabs with God.
What we do or do not do has no bearing on whether or not we are "right with God". Grace is this. No matter your deeds once saved you are secure in him and he will keep you (as a brood?) and use you no matter the condition of your walk.
Something akin to the vessels of honor and dishonor. Is this not GRACE?

Again Please no arguing and bickering. Simply share your thoughts and experiences (and Bible) especially Bible.


:tonofbricks:

What I have to say is, that you have summed it up right. You are blessed.

 

[canadyjd]

...How about this, you have a man who is saved and clearly not walking rightly, one day someone asks him of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't see any difference in the power with which God can use him or the child who is walking rightly. Now I know that this flies in the face of "Baptist" doctrine but I am more concerned about what my Lord taught. I guess what I'm saying is that we as human beings are so far removed from the action and process of Grace that we can have no real effect on it except where our actions build road brocks humanly speaking...

You don't have to be perfect for God to use you.

God can hit straight with a crooked stick.

On the other hand, you can be a "stumbling block" to new believers by telling them it doesn't matter how they walk. If they see you engaging in sinful activity, they may be enticed to engage in some of their own since "it doesn't matter how you walk".

You could also give unbelievers a false sense of assurance of their (non)salvation by telling them "just say a prayer, it doesn't matter how you walk".

I have met several people who, literally, prayed a prayer and never went to church again. Years later, and living like the devil, they insisted they were "saved" because they had said the prayer. I am not the salvation police and I cannot look into them to see the presence of Holy Spirit or not, but I can most certainly tell them the life they are living is inconsistent with profession of faith in Jesus Christ.

Salvation, in scripture, is always accompanied by a transformed life.

peace to youraying:

 

[ray Marshall]

Our salvation isn't based on our conduct, but our beliefs. We have to learn to discern between salvation and discipleship.



One's salvation is based on one's theology, i.e., one's beliefs - if you don't believe in the theology that Jesus was born of a virgin, was the only begotten Son of God, died on the cross for your sins, was resurrected from the dead, I'd say one isn't saved. Surely by "theology" you actually meant "traditions"??



Please clarify this sentence - by saying "changes in their lives and thoughts" - do you hold a reconstructionist view? Surely we are converted the day we believe on Him (Jesus Christ).



Whose cross? Whose empty grave? What true teachers? Shouldn't we ourselves be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that people can turn from their unbelief, to belief in Him? So that they are saved by faith through His Grace. His Holy Spirit teaches us and helps us, not man.



So are you saying we are justified by works? We have to discern of the root of a believer's faith and the fruit of a believer's faith. Romans talks about the root of a believer's faith, and James about the fruit of a believer's faith.



Why is "walk" important to the true child of God? I'd say that FAITH is important to a true child of God, because that's what pleases God. Sometimes God allows the stumblings and pitfalls to happen - like he did with Job. But our true blessing will only happen once we are in heaven. There's no guarantee that a Christian will live a haopy life while still on this earth. Jesus confirmed this when He said we should take up our cross and follow Him.

By all means, I would suggest that you will see the grace of GOD by reading 11Sameul, Chapter 9. Understand how David is is there yet any left in the house of Saul that I may show Kindness for Jonathan sake.
after he was told that there was a servant whose name is Ziba. David asked again is there not yet any in the house of Saul that I MAY SHOW THE KINDNESS OF GOD UNTO HIM.
They answered that there was a son named Mephiobsheth of the house of Machir, the Son of Ammiel from Lodebar,(A place pf phropane state)
Mehhiobsheth who was lane of both of his feet. a type of person , that is in a low state of mind. When they brought Mephiobsheth in to King David, he fell on his face and said to David Who am I that thou should look upon such a dead dog as I am. He knew his own condition but David show GRACE to him and he ate at the Kings table continually, although he was still a cripple and of no esteem, he was showed kindness as we are showed kindness, although we intend to try to do right, we are still carring around this body of death and sin. This chapter shows how GOD shows us GRACE and KINDNESS as we continue through this life., being also heavy-ladened with sin.

 

[Palatka51]

How about this, you have a man who is saved and clearly not walking rightly, one day someone asks him of the Lord Jesus Christ. I don't see any difference in the power with which God can use him or the child who is walking rightly. Now I know that this flies in the face of "Baptist" doctrine but I am more concerned about what my Lord taught. I guess what I'm saying is that we as human beings are so far removed from the action and process of Grace that we can have no real effect on it except where our actions build road brocks humanly speaking. I don't know that this clears it up any but I tried.

Did not Jesus Himself say "Go and sin no More?" Grace does not give an occasion to sin or to make our rags nastier. Grace gives us an occasion to serve God even though our righteousness is as filthy rags.

 

[donnA]

The defination of grace is free and unmerited favor, nothing we can do to earn grace, nothing we can do to warrant being given grace. Grace is by God's choice as to who He gives it too. If you ever do anythng to earn grace, it isn't grace at all.
Being saved means we have a change of mind, a new mind set, on how we act, what we do, what we believe. What we do matters to God, not for the purpose of grace, but to be pleasing to our Father. The Holy Spirit in us gives us the desire to live pleasing to God, the power to do so. A person not living a changed life(in some degree , these changes are not automatic the first moment of salvation), with the desire to live different, to be different, to rid themselves of sinfulness, isn't a christian.

 

[MB]

Hey yall,
As of late the Lord has really had me wrapped around the idea of Grace.
I'll tell you a little abuot it and if you would give me your own personal take on it and even experiences if you want. All that I ask is that you not argue with one another on this thread as I am quite serious and not fishing for a good ole Baptist Business meeting. I think that if we can share thoughts on this then we can all learn something here.

Ok here it goes and it's a very simple thought but runs very deep if you really consider it. We as Baptists and especially we as IFB's get very wrapped up in you have to do this and not do that or you aren't "right " with God. How much sense does that really make when compared to what the Bible says? The Bible says that our righteousness' is as filthy wrags. So you mean to tell me that my filthy wrags somehow buy me some kind of closer relationship with The Father? The Bible says that he is no respector of persons. Paul said in Romans 7 the the things that he would do he did not and the things that he would not that he did, he said that he saw a war within his own members. He also said elswhere that where sin did abound grace did much more abound.

So! Don't misunderstand what I'm saying, I think you would be wise to keep short tabs with God.
What we do or do not do has no bearing on whether or not we are "right with God". Grace is this. No matter your deeds once saved you are secure in him and he will keep you (as a brood?) and use you no matter the condition of your walk.
Something akin to the vessels of honor and dishonor. Is this not GRACE?

Again Please no arguing and bickering. Simply share your thoughts and experiences (and Bible) especially Bible.


:tonofbricks:

This passage should answer for me.
Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Christ said it I believe it. This doesn't mean that we can live perfectly after Salvation with no sin. We all sin. If we indulge in sin because we think that we won't have any regrets where Christ is concerned. We are wrong. Sure we are still save regardless of our sinning but that doesn't mean we won't have to pay for them. If we continue in sin after Salvation and our Salvation is real we will be corrected by God. His corrections can be hell on earth. If no correction ever comes then we were never His to begin with.
MB

 

[pinoybaptist]

Our salvation isn't based on our conduct, but our beliefs. We have to learn to discern between salvation and discipleship.
One's salvation is based on one's theology, i.e., one's beliefs - if you don't believe in the theology that Jesus was born of a virgin, was the only begotten Son of God, died on the cross for your sins, was resurrected from the dead, I'd say one isn't saved. Surely by "theology" you actually meant "traditions"??

Then you are of the opinion that before the gospel all people were hellbound because they do not have the right theology ? Tell me, did Job believe like you do about the virgin birth of Christ ? Be careful before you answer. Hint: Job lived before Isaiah. So, Job is in hell ? Did God reveal to Moses that His Prophet will be born of a virgin ? Another hint: Moses lived before Isaiah.
Did God have people only in the Middle East, particularly Israel ? If yes, then you are saying all mankind were doomed to hell, and that the cross and the blood covered only those born after the fact ?
You picked on my answer, so don't dodge my questions.

Please clarify this sentence - by saying "changes in their lives and thoughts" - do you hold a reconstructionist view? Surely we are converted the day we believe on Him (Jesus Christ).

Fancy words, fancy terms, I'm just getting sick and tired of them among Baptists. Tell me that all conversions are to the truth. One is either converted to error, or to truth. And your conversion has nothing at all to do with the eternal works of Christ in your behalf. Your conversion has to do with your walk on this plane called time.
Were all Baptists practicing and preaching truth ?
Are those whom you call your Baptist forefathers all converts to absolute, undebatable truth and practice ?
Are you antinomian ?

Whose cross? Whose empty grave? What true teachers? Shouldn't we ourselves be preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, so that people can turn from their unbelief, to belief in Him? So that they are saved by faith through His Grace. His Holy Spirit teaches us and helps us, not man.

Saved unto what ? To preach the cross is to point to Christ, and Him only as the sole source and giver of grace. His works, plus and minus nothing. To preach the cross is to rightly divide the word of God with regards salvation, and the fact that there are two dimensions to it. One being the eternal, the other being the timely, the former being all of the Lord and none of man, from start to culmination, all of grace, 100% grace, and no pollution, the other being a salvation here on earth from false gospels, false teachers, false doctrine, thru the preaching of the gospel and the teaching of men appointed by the Holy Spirit to do the teaching.

So are you saying we are justified by works? We have to discern of the root of a believer's faith and the fruit of a believer's faith. Romans talks about the root of a believer's faith, and James about the fruit of a believer's faith.

Point to me where I said that, goldie. You really remind me of a child with a runny nose. Blow your nose, chile.

 

[skypair]

The defination of grace is free and unmerited favor, nothing we can do to earn grace, nothing we can do to warrant being given grace. Grace is by God's choice as to who He gives it too. If you ever do anythng to earn grace, it isn't grace at all.

You're right that we don't receive it by works. Where your theology fails is that it has to be believed and the belief has to be "exercised."

What we do matters to God, not for the purpose of grace, but to be pleasing to our Father.

Yes, He is "the rewarder of them who diligently seek Him." And when we do, we "grow in grace." "Grace," thus, is the knowledge of God that we put to use or apply whereby we receive "favor." As Paul taught, the knowledge (the thought or belief that causes us to obey) didn't come from us and that is the thing we cannot boast of nor be deserving of.

A person not living a changed life (in some degree, these changes are not automatic the first moment of salvation),...

They are not "automatic" even in salvation. In salvation, it was the Word of God that gave you the notion that you a) weren't in relationship with God due to sin and b) that you needed a Savior. Those thoughts were "all of God." They are "grace" but they are not translated into "favor" until you apply them. It's really no different as you live out the Christian life, DonnA.

skypair