• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Grammatical Question on Daniel 9:27

George Antonios

Well-Known Member

Regarding Daniel 9:26-27:

Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I have been told that "the grammar forbids he (v.27) from referring back to prince (v.26) because prince is an indefinite noun."

Is that statement absolutely true?

Please confine your answer to the grammar.

Please cite your references.
 

Scripture More Accurately

Well-Known Member
Regarding Daniel 9:26-27:
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


I have been told that "the grammar forbids he (v.27) from referring back to prince (v.26) because prince is an indefinite noun."

Is that statement absolutely true?

Please confine your answer to the grammar.

Please cite your references.
Where is the information that you have quoted from?
 

Two Wings

Well-Known Member
I know there are multiple messages from a single passage of scripture “I’ve read this all my life and just now got x, y, or z”

But what other entity/reference would “he” be in 9:27 than “the prince” of 9:26?

Grammatically, I’d suggest “he” is a direct reference to “the prince” as “he” isn’t capitalized; therefore it’s not God.
 

37818

Well-Known Member
Currantly I understand the 70th week to be referred to in two parts, Revelation 11:2-3 and the second half in Revelation 12:6.
 

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
I know there are multiple messages from a single passage of scripture “I’ve read this all my life and just now got x, y, or z”

But what other entity/reference would “he” be in 9:27 than “the prince” of 9:26?

Grammatically, I’d suggest “he” is a direct reference to “the prince” as “he” isn’t capitalized; therefore it’s not God.
Is it referring to the Lord jesus or to coming antichrist?
 

Deacon

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It's only my opinion but anyone who says "the grammar forbids", over-estimates the strength of a grammatical argument within the context of a distinctly apocalyptic genre.

Foundation:

a) The argument is about the interpretation of a difficult passage.
b) Top scholarly Christian theologians have differing opinions.
c) The varying viewpoints rely upon opposing structures of interpretation that have been tested over the years (presuppositions).
d) Strong positions may be held but resolution of the difficulties is unlikely.

You had two conditions:
Please confine your answer to the grammar.

Please cite your references.


I will toss you a few sources from for you to ponder - the position that opposes dispensationalism generally take a historist viewpoint.

1) from Southern Baptist, Peter J. Gentry
Daniel's Seventy Weeks and the New Exodus (Southern Baptist Journal of Theology), volume 14. No. 1, Pg 26 (2010)
Gentry covers some lexical and syntactic difficulties encountered in this chapter
.
"Verses 25–27 are not to be read in a linear manner according to the logic of prose in the western world based upon a Greek and Roman heritage." ...

"First, v. 25 introduces the first period of seven weeks and the gap of sixty-two weeks to the climactic seventieth week. This last week is described twice in verses 26 and 27. Verses 26a and 27a describe the work of the Messiah in dying vicariously to uphold a covenant with many and deal decisively with sin, thus ending the sacrificial system. Verses 26b and 27b show that ironically, supreme sacrilege against the temple at this time will result in the destruction of the city of Jerusalem. Thus verses 26–27 have an A-B-A′-B′ structure. This fits the normal patterns in Hebrew literature to deal with a topic recursively. The literary structure can be diagrammed as follows:

A 26a the beneficial work of the Messiah
B 26b ruin / spoliation of the city by his people and its desolation by war
A′ 27a the beneficial work of the Messiah
B′ 27b abominations resulting in destruction of the city by one causing desolation
Observing this literary structure is crucial because one can explain difficulties in one section using the parallel section. For example, “the people of the coming leader” in v. 26b bring ruin to the reconstructed Jerusalem. Verse 27b provides further details showing that the “one causing desolation” does so in association with abominations. Below we will see how this makes perfect sense of the role played by both Jewish and Roman people in the fall of the temple. The literary structure also clarifies how the terms māšîaḥ and nāgîd in 25 and 26 refer to one and the same individual and moreover makes perfect sense of the “strengthening of a covenant” in v. 27a.​


2)
Jonathan Menn, Biblical Eschatology (Eugene, OR: Resource Publications, 2013), 400.

Who is “he”?


“If he refers to the last-named person, ‘the prince who is to come’, the subject is the enemy of God’s cause [if one assumes the ‘prince’ of 26b is evil].” On the other hand, “As for the prince of verse 26b, whose army is said to advance against the temple-city, he is in any case thematically subordinated to the fate of the temple. Therefore, even if he were to be identified as the head of some foreign nation, he ought not to be preferred over Messiah as the subject of higbir [i.e., the ‘he’ who confirms the covenant in 27a].”

“The indefinite pronoun ‘he’ does not refer back to ‘the prince who is to come’ of verse 26. That ‘prince’ is a subordinate noun; ‘the people’ is the dominant noun. Thus, the ‘he’ refers back to the last dominant individual mentioned: ‘Messiah’ (v. 26a). The Messiah is the leading figure in the whole prophecy, so even the destruction of the Temple is related to his death. In fact, the people who destroy the Temple are providentially ‘His armies’ (Matt. 22:2–7).”

“He” has been interpreted as Antiochus Epiphanes, Jesus Christ, or an end-time Antichrist.
3) Various modern single translator attempts at the passage

A)
26and after the sixty-two sevens,
An anointed will be cut off
and will have neither the city nor the sanctuary
.
A leader to come will devastate a people,
and its end: with the flood.
Until the end of battle desolations are determinedi,

27and a covenant will prevail for the multitude
for one seven
.
In the middle of the seven
sacrifice and offering will cease
,
And upon a wing: a desolating abomination,
until a conclusion that has been decreed
overwhelms a desolate one
.”

John Goldingay, Daniel, ed. Nancy L. deClaissé-Walford, Revised Edition., vol. 30, Word Biblical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Academic, 2019), 443.​

B) (Goldingay's second attempt)
(25f) ...but in the pressure of the times, 26after the sixty-two sevens, an anointed will be cut off, and will have neither the town nor the sacred place; a leader to come will devastate a people and its end will come by a flood, but until the end of battle, devastations are determined;
27a pact will prevail for many people for one seven, for half the seven he will suspend sacrifice and offering, and upon a wing will be a. g great abomination, desolating, until a conclusion and something decreed overwhelms the desolator.'​


C)
And after the sixty-two weeks of years the anointed one shall be cut off with none to save him. And the troops of a prince who comes shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end shall come in a sudden rush, and till the end of the decreed war, desolation. (Daniel 9:26-27)

Robert Alter, Daniel, The Hebrew Bible. volume 3, The Writings (New York, W. W. Norton and Company, 2019), 787-788.​


Some things to ponder...

Rob
 

George Antonios

Well-Known Member
It's only my opinion but anyone who says "the grammar forbids", over-estimates the strength of a grammatical argument within the context of a distinctly apocalyptic genre.

Foundation:

a) The argument is about the interpretation of a difficult passage.
b) Top scholarly Christian theologians have differing opinions.
c) The varying viewpoints rely upon opposing structures of interpretation that have been tested over the years (presuppositions).
d) Strong positions may be held but resolution of the difficulties is unlikely.

You had two conditions:
Please confine your answer to the grammar.

Please cite your references.


I will toss you a few sources from for you to ponder - the position that opposes dispensationalism generally take a historist viewpoint.

1) from Southern Baptist, Peter J. Gentry
Daniel's Seventy Weeks and the New Exodus (Southern Baptist Journal of Theology), volume 14. No. 1, Pg 26 (2010)
Gentry covers some lexical and syntactic difficulties encountered in this chapter
.
"Verses 25–27 are not to be read in a linear manner according to the logic of prose in the western world based upon a Greek and Roman heritage." ...

"First, v. 25 introduces the first period of seven weeks and the gap of sixty-two weeks to the climactic seventieth week. This last week is described twice in verses 26 and 27. Verses 26a and 27a describe the work of the Messiah in dying vicariously to uphold a covenant with many and deal decisively with sin, thus ending the sacrificial system. Verses 26b and 27b show that ironically, supreme sacrilege against the temple at this time will result in the destruction of the city of Jerusalem. Thus verses 26–27 have an A-B-A′-B′ structure. This fits the normal patterns in Hebrew literature to deal with a topic recursively. The literary structure can be diagrammed as follows:

A 26a the beneficial work of the Messiah
B 26b ruin / spoliation of the city by his people and its desolation by war
A′ 27a the beneficial work of the Messiah
B′ 27b abominations resulting in destruction of the city by one causing desolation
Observing this literary structure is crucial because one can explain difficulties in one section using the parallel section. For example, “the people of the coming leader” in v. 26b bring ruin to the reconstructed Jerusalem. Verse 27b provides further details showing that the “one causing desolation” does so in association with abominations. Below we will see how this makes perfect sense of the role played by both Jewish and Roman people in the fall of the temple. The literary structure also clarifies how the terms māšîaḥ and nāgîd in 25 and 26 refer to one and the same individual and moreover makes perfect sense of the “strengthening of a covenant” in v. 27a.​


2)
Jonathan Menn, Biblical Eschatology (Eugene, OR: Resource Publications, 2013), 400.

Who is “he”?


“If he refers to the last-named person, ‘the prince who is to come’, the subject is the enemy of God’s cause [if one assumes the ‘prince’ of 26b is evil].” On the other hand, “As for the prince of verse 26b, whose army is said to advance against the temple-city, he is in any case thematically subordinated to the fate of the temple. Therefore, even if he were to be identified as the head of some foreign nation, he ought not to be preferred over Messiah as the subject of higbir [i.e., the ‘he’ who confirms the covenant in 27a].”

“The indefinite pronoun ‘he’ does not refer back to ‘the prince who is to come’ of verse 26. That ‘prince’ is a subordinate noun; ‘the people’ is the dominant noun. Thus, the ‘he’ refers back to the last dominant individual mentioned: ‘Messiah’ (v. 26a). The Messiah is the leading figure in the whole prophecy, so even the destruction of the Temple is related to his death. In fact, the people who destroy the Temple are providentially ‘His armies’ (Matt. 22:2–7).”

“He” has been interpreted as Antiochus Epiphanes, Jesus Christ, or an end-time Antichrist.
3) Various modern single translator attempts at the passage

A)
26and after the sixty-two sevens,
An anointed will be cut off
and will have neither the city nor the sanctuary
.
A leader to come will devastate a people,
and its end: with the flood.
Until the end of battle desolations are determinedi,

27and a covenant will prevail for the multitude
for one seven
.
In the middle of the seven
sacrifice and offering will cease
,
And upon a wing: a desolating abomination,
until a conclusion that has been decreed
overwhelms a desolate one
.”

John Goldingay, Daniel, ed. Nancy L. deClaissé-Walford, Revised Edition., vol. 30, Word Biblical Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan Academic, 2019), 443.​

B) (Goldingay's second attempt)
(25f) ...but in the pressure of the times, 26after the sixty-two sevens, an anointed will be cut off, and will have neither the town nor the sacred place; a leader to come will devastate a people and its end will come by a flood, but until the end of battle, devastations are determined;
27a pact will prevail for many people for one seven, for half the seven he will suspend sacrifice and offering, and upon a wing will be a. g great abomination, desolating, until a conclusion and something decreed overwhelms the desolator.'​


C)
And after the sixty-two weeks of years the anointed one shall be cut off with none to save him. And the troops of a prince who comes shall destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end shall come in a sudden rush, and till the end of the decreed war, desolation. (Daniel 9:26-27)

Robert Alter, Daniel, The Hebrew Bible. volume 3, The Writings (New York, W. W. Norton and Company, 2019), 787-788.​


Some things to ponder...

Rob


It's only my opinion but anyone who says "the grammar forbids", over-estimates the strength of a grammatical argument

Amen.
(there is no such thing as "apocalyptic genre" which is a made up expression to justify not believing the literal words of God.
I've been around the block a few times).

"Verses 25–27 are not to be read in a linear manner according to the logic of prose in the western world based upon a Greek and Roman heritage." ...

Which is how he precisely proceeds to write out his interpretation of the text. The irony.
Also, this is silly, I'm a native Middle Easterner. What you said about the grammar I say about the above: not to be wholly ignored, but definitely overestimated. What they're doing is here building that structure themselves by assigning the cessation of sacrifices to Christ rather than antichrist. No thanks. The rest of Daniel speaks of this issue plainly, that it is the little horn who causes the daily sacrifice to cease in the temple when he defiles it. There is no controversy here.

I do appreciate you taking the time to answer within the desired framework. Thank you.
 
Last edited:

Two Wings

Well-Known Member
Verses 25–27 are not to be read in a linear manner according to the logic of prose in the western world based upon a Greek and Roman heritage.

this is actually part of a new understanding I've gained in the last few years and is the basis for recognizing more of the "Daniel code" ... which was to be sealed until the end.

the 490 years succeeds in the passage the reference used for identifying "The Day of The Lord" ... 490 years from the decree to restore Jerusalem. We know Cyrus made such a decree.

There was another such decree made ... 1536 --- Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent. Similar motivations; "God told me to" ... who both were pagans; Cyrus and Suleiman.

I recognize this is a bit of creeping post in the thread but this you raise speaks directly to what you have just raised.
 
Top