Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Asking for clarification just says: "Can you explain what you mean when you said xxxxxxx?" But that isn't what you did. You put words in his mouth.
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Great Book On King James Only by Mark Ward
- Thread starter Reformed1689
- Start date
Go back & read it again and see if it was a question before you go putting words in my mouth, which question you did not answer.
No, that is not at all what I stated.
The sound point is that Henry Morris repeated some unproven claims from unreliable KJV-only sources. That does not mean that he was KJV-only.
He did not document the specific source or sources from which he got his unproven claims. In his booklet, Morris claimed that the information in this booklet "is based on material covered in those more authoritative publications" (p. 17). He failed to identify those sources so that others cannot check them out. He did not demonstrate that those claims were actually authoritative or were from "authoritative" sources as he may have assumed without evidently checking the facts for himself.
Morris stated: "I have no training or experience personally with the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts" (pp. 17-18).
The sources where you can find the unproven claims concerning the KJV repeated by Henry Morris are unreliable KJV-only sources.
Mark Ward observed that reading-level “tools measure a word’s complexity by syllable count, but that’s not a reliable way of judging whether a word can be understood” (Authorized, p. 54).
Mark Ward also asserted: “Reading-level analyses run by computers do not yield reliable or useful results when applied to archaic English” (p. 59).
Mark Ward also asserted: “Reading-level analyses run by computers do not yield reliable or useful results when applied to archaic English” (p. 59).
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
That's where I was heading with trying to know where Dr. Morris determined a 10th grade reading level...
Church Mouse Guy, I am on your side in supporting the use of the King James Bible. However, I think the reading level argument is mostly useless. As noted below, they are computer analyses (always, far as I know) and do not actually gauge real comprehension.
That's right, except I would add that in my limited experience and some tests I have tried, they aren't all that useful period.
Common sense would tell you that the reading level is not high & Morris probably had nothing to do with KJV Only as the older generation of all denominations used KJV. After WW II, the public school curriculum was watered down so that the general public may not read at a tenth grade level any longer. Do you know when Morris wrote his remarks--was it 1995?
Can't be too high. I can read it.
The book on Amazon shows a 1996 date. Not sure if it is the first edition.
Rather than argue over the reading level, why not apply comon sense tools? Here are two commonly used formulas in which reputable folks use.
Below these are two links in which you may use to figure as a rule of thumb the reading level of most any document. Even what is written on the posts?
This is the first:
Another is:
You can actually cut and past into these links and get a quick initial results:
Or
Below these are two links in which you may use to figure as a rule of thumb the reading level of most any document. Even what is written on the posts?
This is the first:
The Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level Readability Formula
Step 1: Calculate the average number of words used per sentence.
Step 2: Calculate the average number of syllables per word.
Step 3: Multiply the average number of words by 0.39 and add it to the average number of syllables per word multiplied by 11.8.
Step 4: Subtract 15.59 from the result.
The specific mathematical formula is:
FKRA = (0.39 x ASL) + (11.8 x ASW) - 15.59
Where,
FKRA = Flesch-Kincaid Reading Age
ASL = Average Sentence Length (i.e., the number of words divided by the number of sentences)
ASW = Average number of Syllable per Word (i.e., the number of syllables divided by the number of words)
Analyzing the results is a simple exercise. For instance, a score of 5.0 indicates a grade-school level; i.e., a score of 9.3 means that a ninth grader would be able to read the document. This score makes it easier for teachers, parents, librarians, and others to judge the readability level of various books and texts for the students.
Theoretically, the lowest grade level score could be -3.4, but since there are no real passages that have every sentence consisting of a one-syllable word, it is a highly improbable result in practice.
NOTE: The US Government Department of Defense uses Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level formula as a standard test. Step 1: Calculate the average number of words used per sentence.
Step 2: Calculate the average number of syllables per word.
Step 3: Multiply the average number of words by 0.39 and add it to the average number of syllables per word multiplied by 11.8.
Step 4: Subtract 15.59 from the result.
The specific mathematical formula is:
FKRA = (0.39 x ASL) + (11.8 x ASW) - 15.59
Where,
FKRA = Flesch-Kincaid Reading Age
ASL = Average Sentence Length (i.e., the number of words divided by the number of sentences)
ASW = Average number of Syllable per Word (i.e., the number of syllables divided by the number of words)
Analyzing the results is a simple exercise. For instance, a score of 5.0 indicates a grade-school level; i.e., a score of 9.3 means that a ninth grader would be able to read the document. This score makes it easier for teachers, parents, librarians, and others to judge the readability level of various books and texts for the students.
Theoretically, the lowest grade level score could be -3.4, but since there are no real passages that have every sentence consisting of a one-syllable word, it is a highly improbable result in practice.
Another is:
he SMOG Readability Formula
Step 1: Take the entire text to be assessed.
Step 2: Count 10 sentences in a row near the beginning, 10 in the middle, and 10 in the end for a total of 30 sentences.
Step 3: Count every word with three or more syllables in each group of sentences, even if the same word appears more than once.
Step 4: Calculate the square root of the number arrived at in Step 3 and round it off to nearest 10.
Step 4: Add 3 to the figure arrived at in Step 4 to know the SMOG Grade, i.e., the reading grade that a person must have reached if he is to understand fully the text assessed.
SMOG grade = 3 + Square Root of Polysyllable Count
The SMOG Formula is considered appropriate for secondary age (4th grade to college level) readers.
The premises of McLaughlin’s SMOG Formula are:
1. A sentence is defined as a string of words punctuated with a period, an exclamation mark, or a question mark.
2. Consider long sentences with a semi-colon as two sentences.
3. Words with hyphen are considered as a single word.
4. Proper nouns, if polysyllabic should be counted.
5. Numbers that are written should be counted. If written in numeric form, they should be pronounced to determine if they are polysyllabic.
6. Abbreviations should be read as though unabbreviated to determine if they are polysyllabic. However, abbreviations should be avoided unless commonly known.
7. If the text being graded is shorter than 30 sentences, follow the steps below:
i. Count all the polysyllabic words in the text
ii. Count the number of sentences in the text.
iii. Divide the figures obtained in i. by the figure obtained in ii. to arrive at Average Polysyllabic Words per sentence.
iv. Multiply the figure obtained in iii. with the average number of sentences short of 30.
v. Add the figure obtained in iv. to the total number of polysyllabic words.
vi. Compare the number of polysyllabic words in the SMOG Conversion Table.
SMOG Conversion Table
Total Polysyllabic Word Count Approximate Grade Level (+1.5 Grades)
1 - 6 5
7 - 12 6
13 - 20 7
21 - 30 8
31 - 42 9
43 - 56 10
57 - 72 11
73 - 90 12
91 - 110 13
111 - 132 14
133 - 156 15
157 - 182 16
183 - 210 17
211 - 240 18
Frankly, I offer these for folks who want to take time to work through the process.Step 1: Take the entire text to be assessed.
Step 2: Count 10 sentences in a row near the beginning, 10 in the middle, and 10 in the end for a total of 30 sentences.
Step 3: Count every word with three or more syllables in each group of sentences, even if the same word appears more than once.
Step 4: Calculate the square root of the number arrived at in Step 3 and round it off to nearest 10.
Step 4: Add 3 to the figure arrived at in Step 4 to know the SMOG Grade, i.e., the reading grade that a person must have reached if he is to understand fully the text assessed.
SMOG grade = 3 + Square Root of Polysyllable Count
The SMOG Formula is considered appropriate for secondary age (4th grade to college level) readers.
The premises of McLaughlin’s SMOG Formula are:
1. A sentence is defined as a string of words punctuated with a period, an exclamation mark, or a question mark.
2. Consider long sentences with a semi-colon as two sentences.
3. Words with hyphen are considered as a single word.
4. Proper nouns, if polysyllabic should be counted.
5. Numbers that are written should be counted. If written in numeric form, they should be pronounced to determine if they are polysyllabic.
6. Abbreviations should be read as though unabbreviated to determine if they are polysyllabic. However, abbreviations should be avoided unless commonly known.
7. If the text being graded is shorter than 30 sentences, follow the steps below:
i. Count all the polysyllabic words in the text
ii. Count the number of sentences in the text.
iii. Divide the figures obtained in i. by the figure obtained in ii. to arrive at Average Polysyllabic Words per sentence.
iv. Multiply the figure obtained in iii. with the average number of sentences short of 30.
v. Add the figure obtained in iv. to the total number of polysyllabic words.
vi. Compare the number of polysyllabic words in the SMOG Conversion Table.
SMOG Conversion Table
Total Polysyllabic Word Count Approximate Grade Level (+1.5 Grades)
1 - 6 5
7 - 12 6
13 - 20 7
21 - 30 8
31 - 42 9
43 - 56 10
57 - 72 11
73 - 90 12
91 - 110 13
111 - 132 14
133 - 156 15
157 - 182 16
183 - 210 17
211 - 240 18
You can actually cut and past into these links and get a quick initial results:
Or
Most methods of evaluation I have seen place the KJV at 12th grade. Which I believe. I base this on the fact that I have never heard anyone in the past 20 years, outside of a preacher, read the KJV outloud without stumbling all over the place.
Also, according to PIAAC 52% of adults in America read at a 5th grade level or lower.
Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
Just for fun I used the first sentence of Romans (ESV) and plugged it into the readability results.
Here is the results:
Flesch Reading Ease score: -41.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: impossible to comprehend.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 55.5 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: EXTREMELY difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 51.8
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 18.2
Grade level: graduate college
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 64.7
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 76
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 44
Reading Level: impossible to comprehend.
Reader's Age: College graduate
Here is the results:
Flesch Reading Ease score: -41.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: impossible to comprehend.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 55.5 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: EXTREMELY difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 51.8
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 18.2
Grade level: graduate college
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 64.7
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 76
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 44
Reading Level: impossible to comprehend.
Reader's Age: College graduate
Folks if you really are concerned about reading levels, here is the KJV using the same testing:
Your Results:
Your text: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an a ...(show all text)
Flesch Reading Ease score: -35.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: impossible to comprehend.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 52.9 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: EXTREMELY difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 49.5
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 17.2
Grade level: graduate college
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 61.2
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 72
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 41
Reading Level: impossible to comprehend.
Reader's Age: College graduate
Your Results:
Your text: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an a ...(show all text)
Flesch Reading Ease score: -35.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: impossible to comprehend.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 52.9 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: EXTREMELY difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 49.5
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 17.2
Grade level: graduate college
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 61.2
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 72
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 41
Reading Level: impossible to comprehend.
Reader's Age: College graduate
Now it would seem that the typical 5th grade comprehension level of the typical American adult who didn't grow up in a typical American city but actually was taught some reading skills is unable to comprehend either the ESV or the KJV.
Yet, on this board there are some who post out of total foolishness based upon nothing but their own ability and assume that others are like educated.
Now just for grins I checked the NIV results, too. The problem is that what is one sentence in the others the NIV broke into more sentences. As a result, the score was impacted, but so (imo) was the veracity of the original writer.
Here is the NIV scoring:
Your Results:
Your text: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an a ...(show all text)
Flesch Reading Ease score: 58.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: fairly difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 16.7 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 14
Grade level: College.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 8.8
Grade level: Ninth Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 15.8
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 20
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 13
Reading Level: fairly difficult to read.
Reader's Age: 18-19 yrs. old (college level entry)
Really?
Are our American children that little educated that most could not understand even the NIV?
Having spent some time with the youth this last year, I have to admit that they actually struggle to gain understanding.
Yet, on this board there are some who post out of total foolishness based upon nothing but their own ability and assume that others are like educated.
Now just for grins I checked the NIV results, too. The problem is that what is one sentence in the others the NIV broke into more sentences. As a result, the score was impacted, but so (imo) was the veracity of the original writer.
Here is the NIV scoring:
Your Results:
Your text: Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an a ...(show all text)
Flesch Reading Ease score: 58.2 (text scale)
Flesch Reading Ease scored your text: fairly difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Gunning Fog: 16.7 (text scale)
Gunning Fog scored your text: difficult to read.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Flesch-Kincaid Grade Level: 14
Grade level: College.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The Coleman-Liau Index: 7
Grade level: Seventh Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
The SMOG Index: 8.8
Grade level: Ninth Grade
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Automated Readability Index: 15.8
Grade level: College graduate
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Linsear Write Formula : 20
Grade level: College Graduate and above.
[ f ] | [ a ] | [ r ]
Readability Consensus
Based on (7) readability formulas, we have scored your text:
Grade Level: 13
Reading Level: fairly difficult to read.
Reader's Age: 18-19 yrs. old (college level entry)
Are our American children that little educated that most could not understand even the NIV?
Having spent some time with the youth this last year, I have to admit that they actually struggle to gain understanding.
Agedman, it seems while you were busy over here, and I didn't know, that I created a new thread on Bible Reading Comprehension. Perhaps it would be a better place than continuing to take David's thread further off the mark.
Bible Reading Comprehension Tests
Bible Reading Comprehension Tests
Yeah,
While you were here, I was commenting over there.
one of these days we are going to have to get on the same thread.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Based on what? Based on what is the reading level not too high? And by what standard? The standard of the common language usage of 1611 or the common language usage today? This argument is beyond nonsense it's flat stupid.
Perhaps looking at the posts that actually present fact based tools that you can try out.
Your point is valuable. Not to be taken casually.
Few KJV bibles are actually 1611 in spelling.
Perhaps one could find it here? John 1 - TYN Bible - Bible Study Tools
Quit beating around the bush and say what you mean. The NKJV abolished the Elizabethan forms and it is not difficult to read. I myself don't have any trouble reading the Elizabethan "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." I don't think that the greatest generation ever complained widely about the KJV. No one is requiring anyone to use it & there is nothing wrong with Tyndale. You have said that it is not modern and I guess that you think it is more than 10th grade but you say apples and oranges when asked what grade it is, right? But it can't be too high if I understand it, with which you have to agree since you have said that my points are stupid.
Wow, it's worse than I thought. Johnny can't read. Would you advocate school vouchers?