Greek; Enhancement or hinderance?

Jim...I have a very simple "take" on this whole topic....and that is that there is nothing wrong with education that exalts our God and does NOT seek to set itself up as an "authority" or "textual critic" that presumes to correct the Word of God....and you and I are ON THE SAME PAGE as to what that is.I don't read greek and hebrew but I do have a Strongs and George Ricker Berry's Interlinear Greek/English New Testament and they have been valuable study tools for me over the years.Sometimes I have found that it is interesting and instructive to see what the "original" hebrew/greek words mean and in my experience I've never found anything where the hebrew/greek contradicted the meaning of my english(KJV)bible.If anything it gave me a greater appreciation of why the translators rendered the words/verses the way they did...Praise God!
Now....if I have any problem with "education" at all it is that many times it seems to instill(in many but not all)a spirit of pride....and we all know what God thinks of pride.Education without Godly humility and a humble spirit is WICKED.

Greg Sr.

 

Question, here....

Since we do not have the 'originals', how far removed (years-wise) were some of the original translators' works from the time of the apostles (especially Paul)? In other words, I am sure the earliest translators probably had access to the originals; however, were any able to ask a particular apostle directly for clarification? Well, now that I think about it, did any tranlator of the manuscripts that we have access to today, have access to the originals? Unfortunately, I do not have a lot of time for historical/early church research. It is all I can do to squeeze in my daily bible study.

 

The Bible's shortest passage John 11:35 Jesus wept.

Verb dakruo (dakruon, a tear)

The word for weep in John 11:35 (dakruo) is different than the word for weep (klaio) typifying what the weepers around Jesus were doing. dakrou is used only here.

An Intermediate Greek-English Lexicon: dakruo: To weep, shed tears, to be tearful.

Vine's: dakruo To shed tears.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary
John 11:35. Jesus’ weeping differed from that of the people. His quiet shedding of tears (edakrysen) differed from their loud wailing (klaiontas, v. 33). …

46 Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament : Based on Semantic Domains: 25.137
to weep, with the clear implication of shedding tears—‘to weep, to cry.’ ejdavkrusen oJ jIhsou`" ‘Jesus wept’ Jn 11.35. In a number of languages a clear distinction is made between weeping which results from sorrow and grief and weeping caused by physical suffering. Without careful attention to such a distinction, a translator may seriously distort the meaning of the text.

The distinction is important showing us the dignity and grace of Jesus Christ.

Jesus silently wept, shedding tears while others were wailing.

The King James makes no such distinction.

Actually it is difficult to make a distinction in the English without going into the realm of dynamic equivalence.

They could have used the word "wail" for the people around him. At least it would have shown a difference.

HankD

 

My understanding is that the point of this exchange, among others, is that Jesus asked this question of Peter 3 times because Peter had denied Christ three times.

Also, I've read and heard that the distinctions in the different meaning of the "love" words (agape, phileo, etc.) was in classical Greek but not in koine Greek; therefore, we cannot be sure this distinction is in this passage. It may just be stylistic variation.

 

I do think that learning Greek can enhance the study and understanding of the Bible, if it is not used in a way that makes others who don't know Greek feel like dummies. But that would not be the fault of Greek -- that would result from human sin and pride.

While I think learning Greek is useful and can enhance understanding the NT, I don't think it's necessary to be a good student of the Bible. Even though English often cannot capture the nuances and complexities of Greek, we still get the message and God's word is powerful enough to cross those barriers (in good translations).

So -

One who knows Greek should not lord it over those who don't
AND
One who does not know Greek should not resent those who do and be willing perhaps to receive a nuanced explanation from one who knows Greek

 

Someone said

Someone else responded

I believe you missed the point, the gospel was written in “koine” a language of life and not books exactly for the reason you have put forth “illiteracy was the norm”..

“all of it was written...” By whom? Even at that your proposition is questionable since the apostles were common folk. Some of whom wrote books of the NT.

Acts 4:13 Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.

Yet obviously they were literate.

HankD

 

If you'll look again you'll notice what I said was the 'language issue should be addressed' by the serious Christian and it should be, IMO, given the tools that are so readily available today. I also indicated the KJV, ESV, and NASB are capable of communicating God's Word in themselves, even without a dictionary, but in case it wasn't clear I'll say it flat out.

I didn't know that about Moody, but that's interesting. But I suspect the resources available today that weren't available to him might prove to be irresistable, even to him. That'll make my list of questions to ask him.

 

Yep, that statement should be rephrased. I was thinking of the long accepted, yet modern, opinion that the Bible was written at the equivalent of about an 8th grade level of today, which seems about right to me. If that's not pretty close, I stand corrected.

I was addressing language and textual issues only, as did Jim's question.

 

I have often heard that by not knowing Greek one misses certain "nuances" in scripture. I'm not I completely agree.

As a lifelong student of linguistics (Greek, Latin, Hebrew, Arabic) I can tell you that it takes ALOT of study to get to a point where one can appreciate this. It takes alot of study time and alot of ability that many simply don't have.

Most of those in church who "know Greek" have perhaps had a semester or two and in truth know "just enough to be dangerous".

The "Porter-Fanning debate" is a good example of some of the complexities of Greek to English translation.

I don't think we can say that one studying the Bible without Greek is at any significant disadvantage - unless he/she is studying on a very academic level.

 

Exegesis is past tense but its application is present tense. Not all writers were of Jewish origin. That is seen in their writing. Paul's education is clearly seen in his writing.

Not every pasage is transcultural. 1 Cor is loaded with quite a number.

 

I think the person who has studeied a little is worse off because he tends to come across knowledgeable but is not. His arrogance has not been humbled.

 

If one learns to read a little music,just enough to play...oh say a piano good enough to entertain himself/herself and friends is that dangerous?
If one who is going to be an electronics technician takes a two semester course in mathematics for electronics which has elements of algebra,trig,& calculus which apply to electronics does that make him/her dangerous?If a person learns a language well enough to live everyday life is that dangerous? Not everything has to be learned at the level of an acedamian in order not to be dangerous.
Learning anything is useful.Knowing how to read and write greek at a functional level would be useful to one who wishes to know the Bible better.Just as it is good to know how to use a dictionary or concordance or lexicon.

Now just because one does'nt know greek does not make one a mental midget.But knowing greek means you can see for yourself what God says in a greek New Testament.I think that's kind of neat.

Every thing you learn makes you smarter, besides nobody can take away your smarts.

 

OK. I said earlier in the thread that the serious Christian should (at a minimum) use the major reference works to help with Greek and Hebrew translation issues.

I also said God's Word could be communicated (and by that I meant a thorough, non-academic working knowledge, sufficient to support a high level of spiritual maturity) through the KJV, ESV, or NASB without using reference materials.

Would you disagree with either? Or both?

 

I would absolutely disagree. Even if you know little or no Greek, you are dependent on others who do and write commentaries, publish study bibles, etc. How do you know that THEY are accurately and unbiasedly sharing truth?

How does one know? By studying multiple works, studying Attic and Homeric Greek, studying OTHER languages, and studying general linguistics. BY studying them ALOT!!

Have you read any on the aspect debate? Is Stanley Porter right? Or is Buist Fanning right? Perhaps they're both off track and ol' Nigel Turner is correct!

I'm sure you're familiar with D.A. Carson's "Exegtical Fallacies." This is a good example of what I'm saying.

And the point is that in order to get to a level where one would know "whether or not they are accurately and unbiasedly sharing truth" takes alot of study and alot of ability.

The person who takes a year or so of Greek in seminary, using only Mounce and a smattering of Daniel Wallace, does not have the background to do this.

Now don't get me wrong here - some basic knowledge of the language is a good thing. That's for sure. But probably 90% of those having this "know just enough to be dangerous". They hopefully do benefit from what they have learned. But they do not have the linguistic background to be able to make such discernments as you seem to suggest above.

 

God gives different abilities to different people. If He'd given everyone the ability to be fluent in Greek, Hebrew, & Aramaic, we wouldn't need any translations, would we?

Thus, we have the bible translated into over 2400 tongues, even some which have no written form.

Some ARE given the ability to read the old mss, whether for the purpose of deeper understanding of the Scriptures, or to make a translation. I say to just use what God has given you; you have it by HIS will.