Greek goddess Themis in Alabama

[Dale-c]

2:1 ¶ Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
2 The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
3 Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
7 ¶ I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel.
10 ¶ Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
11 Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

 

[Alcott]

The courts have held that if a symbol was used to promote a religion or used to further it, then it was disallowed, but if it stood for a concept such as "justice", then it would be allowed.

Seriously, Alcott, are you claiming that a statue of Themis is really meant to further the cult of the goddess rather than the abstract concept of law and justice? Some of the 10 C displays have also been deemed not to be supporting a religion when they are part of the general theme of law throughout the ages. And the one from the movie set, for some reason...

Alright, can the statue of Themis-- standing alone-- be supportive of "justice," while the Ten Commandments in like fashion canNOT be? I don't want either one-- an idol to the goddess or an idol to the 10C's. Unmistakably much of the opposition to the 10 C's is from those who do not believe in the god to whom they are referenced; but do those same ones disbelieve in Themis and have no objection? I presume you think the legal status of such symbols must be based upon preponderance of perception. What consitutional principle allows for such a legal status?

 

[Dale-c]

http://iotconline.com/index.php?id=81http://iotconline.com/index.php?id=81

This is an interesting read on the subject

 

[Dale-c]

The key is to look at the object of the Oath and the Oath-takers loyalty. It is not the Federal government – it is the Constitution, under God (because if the Constitution has an ungodly provision, we cannot keep that provision without offense to God). There are times when the Federal Government oversteps its bounds. When it does, it becomes incumbent on the State authorities to call it back into line, according to the terms of the Constitution to which they jointly have sworn an Oath. Placing onto Governors, States’ Legislators and Judges the duty of compliance with the United States Constitution, in addition to their own Oaths to their States’ Constitution, all lesser magistrates have had imposed upon them the Oath-bound duty to interpose themselves between the Federal government and the people within their jurisdiction when the Federal government has overstepped its bounds. If they fail to interpose, they have breached their Oath, committed perjury and profaned the Name of God.

http://iotconline.com/index.php?id=81

 

[Daisy]

Alright, can the statue of Themis-- standing alone-- be supportive of "justice," while the Ten Commandments in like fashion canNOT be?

Themis statues are symbols of law and justice, not meant to further any religion. The 10 Cs may or may not be used that way. A standalone 10 Cs - well, it seems not, if I understand the court decisions correctly.

I don't want either one-- an idol to the goddess or an idol to the 10C's. Unmistakably much of the opposition to the 10 C's is from those who do not believe in the god to whom they are referenced; but do those same ones disbelieve in Themis and have no objection? I presume you think the legal status of such symbols must be based upon preponderance of perception. What consitutional principle allows for such a legal status?

The statues of Themis are not idols to her but symbols of the abstract concept of impartial justice whereas the statues of the 10 Cs represent a particular set religious laws.

 

[Dale-c]

The statues of Themis are not idols to her but symbols of the abstract concept of impartial justice whereas the statues of the 10 Cs represent a particular set religious laws.

I think where we disagree is that I believe we NEED to acknowledge a specific God that we MUST acknowledge a specific God or we will acknowledge secular humanism.

Did you get the quotes I posted yesterday daisy?

 

[billwald]

"From when to when did we as a nation acknowledge God and how did we do that?"

Bacvk when Christians in the North and South were raping and pilliaging the Indian People.

 

[tragic_pizza]

Dale, awaiting with interest your commentary on the Barmen Declaration as it relates to our discussion.

 

[Dale-c]

Dale, awaiting with interest your commentary on the Barmen Declaration as it relates to our discussion.

I am sorry, I have been really busy the last couple of days but I will try to get to it now.

 

[Dale-c]

Wow, that was a very interesting article.

For those of you that missed it, you can find it here:
http://www.casi.org.nz/statements/decbarmen.html

Looks looks like they went through some of the same things there as we are going through here.

Another interesting read that I have heard quotes from but I haven't had a chance to read yet is called " Hitler's Justice" there is a subtitle that I can't remember at the moment.
It was about the courts of the Third Reich.


It is good that some Christians did stand up in Nazi germany.

I am afraid though that we as Americans may very well be getting a reputation in the world as bad as of that of Germany in the late thirties.

 

[Alcott]

Themis statues are symbols of law and justice, not meant to further any religion. The 10 Cs may or may not be used that way. A standalone 10 Cs - well, it seems not, if I understand the court decisions correctly.

All this means is the Supreme Court regards itself as the arbiter of perception in regard to what people 'see' when they look upon certain symbols. Is this the court's consitutional authority? In my perception, no; but the SC, of course, can be self-determining as to what it's there fore, as the other branches of government cannot.

The statues of Themis are not idols to her but symbols of the abstract concept of impartial justice whereas the statues of the 10 Cs represent a particular set religious laws.

In that case, what if a cross is set up in front a public building and is said to represent freedom and liberty? Any symbol simply means what someone says it means? Regardless, your dichotomy of symbol of as opposed to set religious laws would still hold here. Again, it's not a matter of deities but rather what deities.

 

[Dale-c]

In my perception, no; but the SC, of course, can be self-determining as to what it's there fore, as the other branches of government cannot.

Do you realize how dangerous that is? What you are saying is that to the SC, there is not law! Because if a particular person or group has a monopoly on the definition of a law, then they ARE the law!

 

[Daisy]

In that case, what if a cross is set up in front a public building and is said to represent freedom and liberty? Any symbol simply means what someone says it means?

That's an interesting point. But that would mean that you'd have to lie about the meaning and deny Christ, which would betray the very thing it does stand for.

Regardless, your dichotomy of symbol of as opposed to set religious laws would still hold here. Again, it's not a matter of deities but rather what deities.

No, I disagree, because the Themises are not used or erected as idols but as symbols of the concept of justice.

 

[Daisy]

Do you realize how dangerous that is? What you are saying is that to the SC, there is not law! Because if a particular person or group has a monopoly on the definition of a law, then they ARE the law!

The SC's function is to interpret law within the guidelines of how the law is actually written and how it was meant (letter vs spirit), judicial precedences and, when one law conflicts with another, what and whose interests should prevail (with the constution being primary - but sometimes the constitution will conflict with itself).

 

[tragic_pizza]

Wow, that was a very interesting article.

For those of you that missed it, you can find it here:
http://www.casi.org.nz/statements/decbarmen.html

Looks looks like they went through some of the same things there as we are going through here.

Another interesting read that I have heard quotes from but I haven't had a chance to read yet is called " Hitler's Justice" there is a subtitle that I can't remember at the moment.
It was about the courts of the Third Reich.


It is good that some Christians did stand up in Nazi germany.

I am afraid though that we as Americans may very well be getting a reputation in the world as bad as of that of Germany in the late thirties.

Well, the point I was hoping to make is that Nazi Germany was hoping to make nationalism the religion preachd in their churches. People like Bonhoeffer rejected the idea of nationalism as idolatry.

I don't necessarily fear that America is turning into Nazi Germany, but I do fear that our churches are becoming nationalistic rather than Christocentric.

I think that Moore, and others, who insist that it is God's will that they run a city, state, or country based on their own narrow interpretations of Scripture are a symptom of this, as are the plethora of Christians who believe that, globally, anything the US does is "right," and sanctioned by the Almighty.

God is not America, nor is God a stone monument -- whether said monument is Artemis, the Ten Commandments, or Gomer Pyle.

 

[Dale-c]

No, I disagree, because the Themises are not used or erected as idols but as symbols of the concept of justice.

The monument was not erected as an idol either but as a monument reminding us of the true source of law.

As far as definition, when courts start going way out to twist the law to mean what they want, they have gone way overboard and become tyrants.

 

[Dale-c]

Well, the point I was hoping to make is that Nazi Germany was hoping to make nationalism the religion preachd in their churches. People like Bonhoeffer rejected the idea of nationalism as idolatry.

I totally agree with that!

I don't necessarily fear that America is turning into Nazi Germany, but I do fear that our churches are becoming nationalistic rather than Christocentric.

We are not Nazi Germany yet but if we keep going we will get there someday.

I think that Moore, and others, who insist that it is God's will that they run a city, state, or country based on their own narrow interpretations of Scripture are a symptom of this, as are the plethora of Christians who believe that, globally, anything the US does is "right," and sanctioned by the Almighty.

Ok, I actually totally agree with you on this in principle but you have your facts wrong about Moore. He is NOT trying to force his particular brand of Christianity on anyone. If you read his book you will find that to be clear.

What is seeming to be clear to me, Tragic, is that you have a pretty good understanding of principle but you seem to be mislead on the facts. I would encourage you to read his book and then pehaps you would know more about what he really believes.

 

[Alcott]

No, I disagree, because the Themises are not used or erected as idols but as symbols of the concept of justice.

If it were to be discovered that one person influential in setting up the statue of the goddess actually did believe in the goddess, would it have to be taken down, then? Furthermore, Themis was the goddess of justice, but for some reason the deity is separated from what she was a deity unto. Can that not be the case with a cross or a 10 C's monument? And to say the cross is a symbol of freedom is not a betrayal by lying of what it stands for, as you said, because that is a biblical nominative, as in "if [Christ] has set us free, we are free indeed."

So, does it come down to, in the matter of Themis her statue only represents one thing she represented (she could also see the future and was a counselor of Zeus), but in the matter of Christ, it means him personally, and everything he represents?

 

[Dale-c]

What you don't understand Alcott, is that all religion are tolerated EXCEPT for Christianity!

 

[Eliyahu]

goddess

Any paganism is wrong! It makes judges stupid!