Greek/Hebrew

[TCassidy]

I think you are confusing an adherence to the fundamentals (those books you mentioned and set of doctrines) with what is known today as fundamentalism.

No confusion at all. I am countering the revisionism so common today. "Gay" still means lighthearted and carefree. "Grass" is something you mow, not smoke. "Dope" is your goofy neighbor, not street drugs. And "fundamentalist" is still a Christian who believes the fundamentals of the faith.

 

[TCassidy]

I am referring to is the norm for the IFB

Except it is not. The vast, vast majority if IFBs are main line conservative evangelicals. Your experiences are too limited to condemn an entire group on the basis of your insufficient sampling.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Out of curiosity, what is the Eschatology of these "Fundamentalist Churches" you are all discussing?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Cass, I love you, brother. But I think this is wishful thinking (certainly not willful naivety). As Yeshua1 and many others point out, what I am referring to is the norm for the IFB circles. I would say that you are on the fringe of the movement.

And just for clarification, fundamentalism is extremist. Your description is a redundancy of connotation. If what you have experienced is something less extreme, then that demonstrates you are in the exception, fundamentalism lite (?).

For some reason, I think you are confusing an adherence to the fundamentals (those books you mentioned and set of doctrines) with what is known today as fundamentalism. It seems like a poodle/dog issue. All poodles are dogs but not all dogs are poodles. For example and especially in your case, you don't strike me as a fundamentalist in the general and prolific embodiment that we have with us today.

So to clarify Tim, you equate fundamentalism with extremism? Am I correct?

 

[Greektim]

No confusion at all. I am countering the revisionism so common today. "Gay" still means lighthearted and carefree. "Grass" is something you mow, not smoke. "Dope" is your goofy neighbor, not street drugs. And "fundamentalist" is still a Christian who believes the fundamentals of the faith.
...
Except it is not. The vast, vast majority if IFBs are main line conservative evangelicals. Your experiences are too limited to condemn and entire group on the basis of your insufficient sampling.

So to clarify Tim, you equate fundamentalism with extremism? Am I correct?

As I said, and I think must be reiterated in regards to TCassidy's most previous posts above, connotatively yes.

While gay and grass and dope and fundamentalism may have denotative meanings rooted in their historical derivation and function, the connotative meaning for modern ears is something completely different. And I think it is clear to many outside of the IFB movement that the large part of it is extreme.

That is not to say that all segments are extreme. And certainly there are many MANY subcategories of IFBxers. There are some decent IFB seminaries and Bible colleges that in many ways carved out their niche by claiming IFBism all the while swimming against the extreme tide (sorry for the mixed metaphor). Thus, there are also many great IFB churches in the same vein. But there are far more IFB churches that are extreme with notable pet doctrines and practices. But you still have the Pensacolas (either one), the Bob Joneses, the Baptist Bible whatever (in Missouri), Crown Colleges, and the dozens and dozens more. For every Marantha U or Detroit Baptist Seminary there are 10 IFB institutions on the extreme end. And the Schaaps and the ... (this would work better if I knew a lot of the crazy IFBxer preachers), well you get the gist.

There's a youtube channel called "Bad Preachers". Liberal bias to be sure. Probably not Christian. But where do you think the vast majority of the videos come from??? I'll give you a hint: it has a TLA (three letter acrynym).

https://www.youtube.com/user/BadPreachers/videos

And for your viewing pleasure:

"Every church that's right with God ought to have a sign that says 'male leadership'."

 

[TCassidy]

Out of curiosity, what is the Eschatology of these "Fundamentalist Churches" you are all discussing?

There is no strong consensus but Pre-Trib Pre-Mil is probably out in front.

 

[TCassidy]

That is not to say that all segments are extreme.

Not even most. I went to the Utube channel of videos of "bad preachers." I counted 30 videos. 30 our of over 10,000 IFB church just in the US.

Now, granted, not all church video their sermons. And not all that do share those videos with the rest of the world.

But still, 3/10ths of 1 percent, even taking into consideration of the above, it nothing more than a tiny fringe.

Dr. Clearwaters, President of the Seminary I attended and Pastor of Fourth Baptist Church in Minneapolis (one of the first "mega churches") used to say about experiences church splits: "I never had a church split. It was like splitting firewood for the old cook stove when I was a boy. Sometimes I would miss the log and just catch a little sap and bark. I never had a church split, just lost a little sap and bark."

What you are talking about is the sap and bark of IFB.

When you really look into IFB you will note the vast majority are not as you describe.

BWA
BFA
ARBC
GARBC
IBI
FBF
NTAIBC
WBF
ABA
ARBCA
BGC
BMA
IBFI
MBA
IBC
SBF

And those are just off the top of my head. And none of them reflect the Hyles type of IFBx.

 

[Greektim]

There is no strong consensus but Pre-Trib Pre-Mil is probably out in front.

Seriously??? "No strong consensus"????? While there hasn't been an IFB council to settle the matter, it is pretty universal throughout. Outside of a few fringers that aren't Pre-Trib, the vast majority are pre-trib all the way!

I'm curious what you would say the percentage is for "out in front".

 

[Greektim]

Not even most. I went to the Utube channel of videos of "bad preachers." I counted 30 videos. 30 our of over 10,000 IFB church just in the US.

Now, granted, not all church video their sermons. And not all that do share those videos with the rest of the world.

But still, 3/10ths of 1 percent, even taking into consideration of the above, it nothing more than a tiny fringe.

Dr. Clearwaters, President of the Seminary I attended and Pastor of Fourth Baptist Church in Minneapolis (one of the first "mega churches") used to say about experiences church splits: "I never had a church split. It was like splitting firewood for the old cook stove when I was a boy. Sometimes I would miss the log and just catch a little sap and bark. I never had a church split, just lost a little sap and bark."

What you are talking about is the sap and bark of IFB.

When you really look into IFB you will note the vast majority are not as you describe.

BWA
BFA
ARBC
GARBC
IBI
FBF
NTAIBC
WBF
ABA
ARBCA
BGC
BMA
IBFI
MBA
IBC
SBF

And those are just off the top of my head. And none of them reflect the Hyles type of IFBx.

My point musta flown straight past you.

 

[TCassidy]

Seriously???

Yes.

"No strong consensus"?????

Nope.

Outside of a few fringers that aren't Pre-Trib, the vast majority are pre-trib all the way!

Again you demonstrate what I have been trying to tell you. Your representative sampling is far too small. Just one group, in my lengthy list of non-fringe IFBs, ARBCA, are almost exclusively A-mil.

And the number of Pre-wrath followers is growing quite fast, largely through the book by Marvin Rosenthal.

And, of course, just about all Historic Pre-mils are post-trib.

 

[HankD]

Look at the Greek lexicons compiled by those who practice infant baptism. They defend their denomination's teaching on baptism by twisting the word "baptidzo" all our of shape and trying to apply it where it does not belong. Such bias must be considered, and rejected when using those reference materials. Just as commentaries reflect the denominational bias of the writers.

As one of my seminary professors used to say, "Eat the fruit but spit out the pits."

HA! Mine said "eat the fish, throw out the bones".

HankD

 

[Greektim]

Yes.

Nope.

Again you demonstrate what I have been trying to tell you. Your representative sampling is far too small. Just one group, in my lengthy list of non-fringe IFBs, ARBCA, are almost exclusively A-mil.

And the number of Pre-wrath followers is growing quite fast, largely through the book by Marvin Rosenthal.

And, of course, just about all Historic Pre-mils are post-trib.

Yeah... I'm not buying into the concept that the ARBCA is part of the IFB group. Sorry. Most of those groups you listed previously are as independent as SBC churches. What sets the IFBxers apart is that they very rarely associate with any group.

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeup, that would be my conclusion. The galaxy that is the Fundamental Baptist movement has so many sectors some without a close connection to others. Beale would give him a better overview.

Would those in that Movement value seperation to such an extent, that a well regarded preacher/teacher who held to major biblical doctrines, except had an A Mil in end times , would they ne allowed to preach/teach?

 

[Squire Robertsson]

In some cases yes, in others no. Keep in mind for the most part, IFBs are pre-mil, pre trib. Though as noted at least one faction is a-mil. Remember, there is no central authority to put an imprimatur on anybody. So, what one or more groups may accept in the way of eschatology; one or more groups may reject. The key is across the broad is the acceptance of the bodily return of Our Lord. For the most part due to other factors than eschatology, those holding to the a-mil position associate with other groupings.

Would those in that Movement value separation to such an extent, that a well regarded preacher/teacher who held to major biblical doctrines, except had an A Mil in end times , would they be allowed to preach/teach?

 

[Greektim]

In some cases yes, in others no. Keep in mind for the most part, IFBs are pre-mil, pre trib. Though as noted at least one faction is a-mil. Remember, there is no central authority to put an imprimatur on anybody. So, what one or more groups may accept in the way of eschatology; one or more groups may reject. The key is across the broad is the acceptance of the bodily return of Our Lord. For the most part due to other factors than eschatology, those holding to the a-mil position associate with other groupings.

The ARBCA is not independent. They are an association. They have strict doctrinal qualifications to be a part of the group. They plant churches and do missions as an entity.

I think we are talking about 2 different groups. Plus this thread is about something completely different. I say we drop it here and open another thread more directed to the subject of either identification or origins.

 

[TCassidy]

They are an association.

not independent.

The General ASSOCIATION of Regular Baptist Churches
The New Testament ASSOCIATION of Independent Baptist Churches.
The Independent Baptist ASSOCIATION.

And so on.

 

[Greektim]

So TGC & Justin Taylor have done a few recent articles on Fundamentalism and its varied forms. I think it might make a good platform for a separate thread. Be on the look out.

 

[Jkdbuck76]

So...... Greek and Hebrew.... 1/2 page about Greek and Hebrew the balance of this thread being ax grinding.

Sent from my SM-T350 using Tapatalk

 

[Ben Labelle]

Thomas Ross
Independent Baptist Thomas Ross (one of the authors of Thou Shalt Keep Them) teaches first year Hebrew here: http://faithsaves.net/college-courses/hebrew-courses/

The Master’s Seminary
Dr. William Barrick’s first & second year Hebrew courses have been put on YouTube by TMS:
(TMS Archives: Biblical Hebrew Grammar I - Dr. Bill Barrick - YouTube)
The textbooks and workbooks he uses are here: https://drbarrick.org/courses/hebrew-grammar-1/
I happen to be using this course.

Zondervan also has a Hebrew course on YouTube.

D.A. Waite
Waite teaches first year Greek. All the links to necessary materials are here: http://faithsaves.net/college-courses/greek-courses/

 

[TCassidy]

As this is a two year old zombie thread, it is now closed.