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Greek Tenses and OSAS
- Thread starter ascund
- Start date
Hi ascund,
ascund:
God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.
Jim:
Why do you think that I disagree with this? All of this is true for believers. It is not true for unbelievers, regardless of whether or not they used to believe.
ascund:
Like taking candy from a baby. You CoCers are so focused on your self-righteous way to please God that your whole denomination has put an unspoken ban on God's contracts.
Jim:
Why do you say “self-righteous?” I’ve said more than once that believers are secure REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD BELIEVERS, as long as they are believers. If they stop believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, then they are no longer believers, in which case they forfeit the benefits of being a believer.
ascund:
If you are ever taught and learn God's contracts, then you can't remain a Christ denier. OK - I'm wrong here. I have a friend you I've shown this too and he dismissed it as irrelevant.
Jim:
I don’t even know what to say to this. You apparently haven’t even bothering to read what I’ve written.
I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that anyone who believes in Him, trusting Him to save them, is saved and has eternal life. “The one who believes has eternal life (John 6:47).”
If, for whatever reason, a believer would stop believing and conclude that Jesus was just an ordinary man, and that all this Christian stuff is just a religious myth, then this person would no longer be a believer, in which case he would no longer have eternal life, because only “the one who believes has eternal life.”
How does this make me a Christ denier? As far as I can tell, it makes me a believer in Christ.
What I don’t understand is how anyone can think that the Bible teaches that one can be an unbeliever, who no longer believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and still have eternal life simply because he USE TO believe. This I don’t understand.
Jim
ascund:
God’s promises for the believer’s security are numerous. Consider the following incomplete list:
God promises us that we shall not perish (John 10:28-29).
God has already glorified the believer (Rom 8:29-30).
God will confirm every believer to the end (1 Cor 1:8).
We stand in the power of God (1 Cor 2:5).
God has established us in Christ (2 Cor 1:21-22).
God has given the earnest of His Spirit (2 Cor 5:5-7).
God has made us accepted (Eph 1:6).
God has quickened us together with Christ (Eph 2:5-6).
God began the good work in us and will continue to do it (Phil 1:6).
God has made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us into the Kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:12-13).
God has delivered us from the power of darkness (Col 1:13).
God has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Col 1:13).
The Lord is faithful, Who shall establish you (1 Thes 5:23-24 & 2 Thes 3:3).
The Lord shall deliver me from every evil (2 Tim 4:18).
The Lord will preserve me unto His heavenly kingdom (2 Tim 4:18).
God reserves a place for us (1 Pet 1:4-5; Jude 1).
God is able to keep us from falling (Jude 24).
God will present us blameless before the presence of His glory (Jude 24).
God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness (2 Pet 1:3).
God will not let our feet be move [from a position of justification], he does not slumber . . . He shall preserve you [the believer] from all evil: He shall preserve thy soul (Psalm 121:3,7).
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.
Jim:
Why do you think that I disagree with this? All of this is true for believers. It is not true for unbelievers, regardless of whether or not they used to believe.
ascund:
Like taking candy from a baby. You CoCers are so focused on your self-righteous way to please God that your whole denomination has put an unspoken ban on God's contracts.
Jim:
Why do you say “self-righteous?” I’ve said more than once that believers are secure REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD BELIEVERS, as long as they are believers. If they stop believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, then they are no longer believers, in which case they forfeit the benefits of being a believer.
ascund:
If you are ever taught and learn God's contracts, then you can't remain a Christ denier. OK - I'm wrong here. I have a friend you I've shown this too and he dismissed it as irrelevant.
Jim:
I don’t even know what to say to this. You apparently haven’t even bothering to read what I’ve written.
I believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that anyone who believes in Him, trusting Him to save them, is saved and has eternal life. “The one who believes has eternal life (John 6:47).”
If, for whatever reason, a believer would stop believing and conclude that Jesus was just an ordinary man, and that all this Christian stuff is just a religious myth, then this person would no longer be a believer, in which case he would no longer have eternal life, because only “the one who believes has eternal life.”
How does this make me a Christ denier? As far as I can tell, it makes me a believer in Christ.
What I don’t understand is how anyone can think that the Bible teaches that one can be an unbeliever, who no longer believes that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and still have eternal life simply because he USE TO believe. This I don’t understand.
Jim
Hi 1jim
You pay lip service to the quotes on God and Jesus' righteousness because YOU are required to add YOUR filthy rags (ISA 64:6) to Christ.
You cry, "Lord! Lord!" but deny Him in theology. Either He can save to the UTTERMOST (Heb 7:25) or He can't. You opt for the latter; I opt for the former.
You endorse a self-righteous system of death for no one can comply with YOUR demands for perfection. I endorse a system based totally and only on Jesus Christ. His righteousness pleases God - not mine!
I do not say that as a personal insult.
It is the logical conclusions of your system.
Lloyd
Jim: Why do you say “self-righteous?” I’ve said more than once that believers are secure REGARDLESS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY ARE GOOD BELIEVERS, as long as they are believers. If they stop believing that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, then they are no longer believers, in which case they forfeit the benefits of being a believer.</font>[/QUOTE]I say self-righteous because the task of remaining in God's family (for you) requires your faithful obedience and endurance. If YOU ever stop beleiving then you perish. Everything is focused on YOU.
You pay lip service to the quotes on God and Jesus' righteousness because YOU are required to add YOUR filthy rags (ISA 64:6) to Christ.
You cry, "Lord! Lord!" but deny Him in theology. Either He can save to the UTTERMOST (Heb 7:25) or He can't. You opt for the latter; I opt for the former.
You endorse a self-righteous system of death for no one can comply with YOUR demands for perfection. I endorse a system based totally and only on Jesus Christ. His righteousness pleases God - not mine!
I do not say that as a personal insult.
It is the logical conclusions of your system.
Lloyd
Hey 1jim
You believe in Jesus up front, but believe in yourself to finish the race.
Heb 12:2 says Jesus is the finisher.
All those pious references to the Bible are disgarded because YOU must put Christ down and take His place as SURETY (Heb 7:22).
Who is the SURETY? I thank God that Jesus is the surety. You thank God and then pull Jesus down and put yourself in His place.
That is why your pious word "Lord, Lord" sound nice, but you deny Him in the end - even while quoting Bible verses.
Your theology is NOT consistent.
Lloyd
You believe in Jesus up front, but believe in yourself to finish the race.
Heb 12:2 says Jesus is the finisher.
All those pious references to the Bible are disgarded because YOU must put Christ down and take His place as SURETY (Heb 7:22).
Who is the SURETY? I thank God that Jesus is the surety. You thank God and then pull Jesus down and put yourself in His place.
That is why your pious word "Lord, Lord" sound nice, but you deny Him in the end - even while quoting Bible verses.
Your theology is NOT consistent.
Lloyd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Bingo!
But of course this becomes "An inconvenient fact to be glossed over" if one is tied to the OSAS tradition.
My point has been that good Bible exegesis should have been able shake the aherents to OSAS away from their unbiblical position.
Who knows - it may yet do just that.
In Christ,
Bob
Hey Bob
Your error is to make faith a measure of salvation. Faith is but the instrument that activates God's forgiveness and declaration of righteousness.
We all are unbelievers of a sort. Tell me. When was the last time you sent a mountain into the sea? When has anyone in your church done such a thing? Has it ever been recorded in history?
You do twist the object of faith from JESUS to your own self. Hence, you have a self-righteous system.
Your Christ-denying system ends up teaching that we all are unbelievers condemned to hell.
Lloyd
Your error is to make faith a measure of salvation. Faith is but the instrument that activates God's forgiveness and declaration of righteousness.
We all are unbelievers of a sort. Tell me. When was the last time you sent a mountain into the sea? When has anyone in your church done such a thing? Has it ever been recorded in history?
You do twist the object of faith from JESUS to your own self. Hence, you have a self-righteous system.
Your Christ-denying system ends up teaching that we all are unbelievers condemned to hell.
Lloyd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Lloyd references ...
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.
How "instructive" that such methods are the domain of a desperate defense of OSAS.
In Christ,
Bob
We shall not slide [from salvation] (Psalm 26:1).
We can know that we are saved (1 John 5:13).
God is faithful to deliver what He has promised (Heb 10:23).
This list makes pretty easy common-sense reading.
Indeed you have never pointed to any of these texts and objected... but in the "ranting responses" the words are "put into your mouth" so that you can be responded to "AS IF" you had done what only can be found in the pointless ranting posted in opposition to the points made against OSAS.
How "instructive" that such methods are the domain of a desperate defense of OSAS.
In Christ,
Bob
Here it is
Noon of the 17th. My offer of apology has expired.
Both BobRyan and 1jim have shown a lack of knowing how to respond to God's contractual clauses. Here they are.
Verses related to the New Covenant. God gave us four versions of the New Covenant. They are found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-30, and Hebrews 8:8-13. The Hebrews version is really a quotation of Jeremiah 31.
I want to list the clauses of this eternal, wonderfully lopsided (but for us), grace packed, guaranteed (by the surety), new covenant.
__1. I [God] will put my laws into their mind
__2. I will write them in their hearts
__3. I will be to them a God
__4. They shall be to me a people
__5. They shall all know me
__6. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness
__7. I will not remember their sins and iniquities!
A comparison of the Old and New Covenants is insightful.
Type of Contract:
__OT: Conditional
__NT: UNconditional
Defining Characteristic
__OT: flesh
__NT: Spirit
Place of the Law
__OT: stone
__NT: hearts
Power for obedience
__OT: flesh
__NT: Spirit
God’s Responsibility
__OT: conditioned on obedience
__NT: UNconditional and complete
Man’s Responsibility
__OT: Obedience
__NT: Obedience
Surety of contract
__OT: no one
__NT: Jesus
Nature of contract
__OT: One-sided AGAINST us
__NT: One-sided FOR us
Without this simple grasp of theology, BobRyan and 1jim will continue to flounder in the quicksands of self-righteousness. Notice how much they believe is in the OLD TESTAMENT!
They speak as if they know Jesus but espouse Moses!
This is a fitting post for my 500th post!
Lloyd
Noon of the 17th. My offer of apology has expired.
Both BobRyan and 1jim have shown a lack of knowing how to respond to God's contractual clauses. Here they are.
Verses related to the New Covenant. God gave us four versions of the New Covenant. They are found in Jeremiah 31:31-34, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 36:26-30, and Hebrews 8:8-13. The Hebrews version is really a quotation of Jeremiah 31.
I want to list the clauses of this eternal, wonderfully lopsided (but for us), grace packed, guaranteed (by the surety), new covenant.
__1. I [God] will put my laws into their mind
__2. I will write them in their hearts
__3. I will be to them a God
__4. They shall be to me a people
__5. They shall all know me
__6. I will be merciful to their unrighteousness
__7. I will not remember their sins and iniquities!
A comparison of the Old and New Covenants is insightful.
Type of Contract:
__OT: Conditional
__NT: UNconditional
Defining Characteristic
__OT: flesh
__NT: Spirit
Place of the Law
__OT: stone
__NT: hearts
Power for obedience
__OT: flesh
__NT: Spirit
God’s Responsibility
__OT: conditioned on obedience
__NT: UNconditional and complete
Man’s Responsibility
__OT: Obedience
__NT: Obedience
Surety of contract
__OT: no one
__NT: Jesus
Nature of contract
__OT: One-sided AGAINST us
__NT: One-sided FOR us
Without this simple grasp of theology, BobRyan and 1jim will continue to flounder in the quicksands of self-righteousness. Notice how much they believe is in the OLD TESTAMENT!
They speak as if they know Jesus but espouse Moses!
This is a fitting post for my 500th post!
Lloyd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I am curious about your slight of hand in the above illustration.
you CLAIM to be contrasting the Old Covenant with the New Covenant -- but then you USE abreviations of OT and NT.
What is up with that? ARE you ALSO claiming that God's WORD - the OT does NOT contain the New Covenant???
Are you one who preaches TWO GOSPELS as WELL? (Gal 1:6-11)
How "surprising".
In Christ,
Bob
Hey Bob
Most beginning Sunday School kids know that covenant and testament are synonyms. The Greek word behind them is diatheke.
You are in the wrong testament with your dependence on MOSES. The OT points to Jesus while you embrace the law. The OT teaches the NT only if one is willing to unplug their ears.
There has only been ONE GOSPEL: faith in Jesus Christ. Even while you live in the OT you missed this central teaching.
It is one thing to be in the OT it is quite another to be self-righteous. Abraham was in the OT, yet he is a prime example of justification by faith apart from the OT law.
When you cannot see clear, you stumble over little things.
Lloyd
Most beginning Sunday School kids know that covenant and testament are synonyms. The Greek word behind them is diatheke.
You are in the wrong testament with your dependence on MOSES. The OT points to Jesus while you embrace the law. The OT teaches the NT only if one is willing to unplug their ears.
There has only been ONE GOSPEL: faith in Jesus Christ. Even while you live in the OT you missed this central teaching.
It is one thing to be in the OT it is quite another to be self-righteous. Abraham was in the OT, yet he is a prime example of justification by faith apart from the OT law.
When you cannot see clear, you stumble over little things.
Lloyd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The failed attempt to equivocate betweeen the Old Testament (NEVER called the OT by the NT saints of the New Testament) and the "Old Covenant" is simply another in a long list of fallacies employed by OSAS adherents.
But in this fallacy the blatant denial of God's Word in Gal 1:6-11 that flatly condemns those who would preach two Gospels - is clearly seen.
In Gal 3 we see that IN THE OT the "GOSPEL was preached to Abraham". ONE GOSPEL - ALL ages.
IN Heb 4:1-2 we see that "THE Gospel was preached TO US JUST AS IT WAS to THEM ALSO" speaking of the OT saints.
In Heb 11 we see the Gospel FAITH of the OT saints HELD UP before the NT saints as - the standard of example to which they are called.
But of course a faithful OSASer would simply ignore all that and preach a "two-gospel" fallacy to try to get a "better gospel" than the one God defines in scripture. One that is more 4-pt Calvinist in nature.
One that denies perseverance (something that EVEN 3pt and 5pt Calvinists would not stoop to do).
I some ways the OSAS path of error goes to a new level of extreme.
In Christ,
Bob
But in this fallacy the blatant denial of God's Word in Gal 1:6-11 that flatly condemns those who would preach two Gospels - is clearly seen.
In Gal 3 we see that IN THE OT the "GOSPEL was preached to Abraham". ONE GOSPEL - ALL ages.
IN Heb 4:1-2 we see that "THE Gospel was preached TO US JUST AS IT WAS to THEM ALSO" speaking of the OT saints.
In Heb 11 we see the Gospel FAITH of the OT saints HELD UP before the NT saints as - the standard of example to which they are called.
But of course a faithful OSASer would simply ignore all that and preach a "two-gospel" fallacy to try to get a "better gospel" than the one God defines in scripture. One that is more 4-pt Calvinist in nature.
One that denies perseverance (something that EVEN 3pt and 5pt Calvinists would not stoop to do).
I some ways the OSAS path of error goes to a new level of extreme.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Since Lloyd is constantly looking for Bible texts to refute and since the references I gave in my previous point are still somewhat confusing to him --
Summary points.
IN chapter 3 Paul makes the case for “enduring firm until the end” (Perseverance) based on God’s argument to the Sabbath-keeping saints of David’s time in Psalms 95. So Paul’s use of that same Psalms 95 argument for obedience that God gave to David involves both the historic time of David’s generation (to whom the message was given) and the historic time of Moses’ generation (those who died in the wilderness providing the “negative example” of failing to persevere in belief and obedience.)
1. (Vs 2) - WE have had the same "good news" (gospel) preached to US "JUST as they also" as did the OT people of God at Sinai.
2. (Vs 7) We also have the same salvation promises given to God's Sabbath-keeping people in the days of King David
=============================================================
Paul begins with “Therefore” – and thereby continues the discussion from chapter 3. Paul refers to his current illustration of the failing example of that part of Israel that died in the wilderness – vs the message given to David and his generation about choosing obedience and perseverance as the “lesson to be learned” from that failing example of those who died in the wilderness. (The contrast of two Generations – David’s vs Moses’)
B. Paul says “while a promise remains” -- What “promise remains”?? It is shown in chapter 3 to be the Psalms 95 promise regarding “Today”. That promise given to David and “his generation” still remains.
C. We observe here that we have the same gospel the "good news" preached to us JUST AS they (OT Hebrews at Sinai) ALSO. The ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6) which was even
"preached to Abraham" (Gal 3:7-8) - showing ONE solution (salvation through Christ) for the ONE problem (fallen humanity lost in sin),
1Cor 10:2-4 "ALL were Baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and all drank from the same SPIRITUAL ROCK which followed them and that was CHRIST"
Next Paul returns again to the Psalms 95 message of David’s generation and the “promise that remains” for us even today – in that OT message.
In vs 3 we HAVE ENTERED his salvation rest - because when we BELIEVE (Rom 10:9) we are born again - transformed, accepted into fellowship with God (1John 1:1-5). Having been returned in some degree to that perfect fellowship which Adam had before the fall – not yet fully RESTORED fellowship with God as in literally seeing and walking with God the way Adam did - but still worshipping in love and submitting to God's Word. And having entered – Paul argues that we should be “diligent” and persevere “firm until the end”.
As did the giants of faith in (Heb 11) “believe”, Sabbath-keeping saints that having entered that rest did persevere and were diligent “firm until the end”.. These are like David and the saints of his day who chose to “Believe” and to “persevere faithful firm until the end”- born again saints of the OT who "believe and it was accounted unto them for righteousness". By faith - by "belief" these saints ENTERED just as we HAVE ENTERED His rest.
But of course Hebrews is contrasting this Psalms 95 message given in David’s time – in the OT – to the OT saints that uses the “Failing example” of those in Moses’ generation who died in the wilderness. Who failed “because of unbelief” see chapter 3
Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. .
This point of failure due to unbelief also applies to those Jews who reject the Messiah – and the Psalms 95 “promise that remains” is given to the Sabbath keeping saints of David and his generation Saints already IN the land of Canaan.
But aside from these examples of failure - we do have the great examples of success of those that were "pleasing to God" and who found "Acceptance with God" mentioned in Heb 11.
Summary points.
IN chapter 3 Paul makes the case for “enduring firm until the end” (Perseverance) based on God’s argument to the Sabbath-keeping saints of David’s time in Psalms 95. So Paul’s use of that same Psalms 95 argument for obedience that God gave to David involves both the historic time of David’s generation (to whom the message was given) and the historic time of Moses’ generation (those who died in the wilderness providing the “negative example” of failing to persevere in belief and obedience.)
1. (Vs 2) - WE have had the same "good news" (gospel) preached to US "JUST as they also" as did the OT people of God at Sinai.
2. (Vs 7) We also have the same salvation promises given to God's Sabbath-keeping people in the days of King David
=============================================================
Paul begins with “Therefore” – and thereby continues the discussion from chapter 3. Paul refers to his current illustration of the failing example of that part of Israel that died in the wilderness – vs the message given to David and his generation about choosing obedience and perseverance as the “lesson to be learned” from that failing example of those who died in the wilderness. (The contrast of two Generations – David’s vs Moses’)
A. Paul argues that “fear” be a motivator when looking at the “Failing example” of Heb 3. Paul is recommending “fear” based on taking the argument of God in Psalms 95 “seriously” as IT points to the FAILING case of Moses’ generation.
B. Paul says “while a promise remains” -- What “promise remains”?? It is shown in chapter 3 to be the Psalms 95 promise regarding “Today”. That promise given to David and “his generation” still remains.
C. We observe here that we have the same gospel the "good news" preached to us JUST AS they (OT Hebrews at Sinai) ALSO. The ONE Gospel (Gal 1:6) which was even
"preached to Abraham" (Gal 3:7-8) - showing ONE solution (salvation through Christ) for the ONE problem (fallen humanity lost in sin),
1Cor 10:2-4 "ALL were Baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea and all drank from the same SPIRITUAL ROCK which followed them and that was CHRIST"
Next Paul returns again to the Psalms 95 message of David’s generation and the “promise that remains” for us even today – in that OT message.
In chapter 3 Paul clearly established that the generation of Moses’ day did NOT enter “because of unbelief”. By contrast he notes the Faith, belief, endurance, perseverance in obedience of Moses and Christ - that is called for in Psalms 95 – given to David and his generation. And so again in vs 3 of chapter 4– he is quoting Psalms 95 – to make the argument that “there remains” the Psalms 95 promise that “remains” even for us today.
In vs 3 we HAVE ENTERED his salvation rest - because when we BELIEVE (Rom 10:9) we are born again - transformed, accepted into fellowship with God (1John 1:1-5). Having been returned in some degree to that perfect fellowship which Adam had before the fall – not yet fully RESTORED fellowship with God as in literally seeing and walking with God the way Adam did - but still worshipping in love and submitting to God's Word. And having entered – Paul argues that we should be “diligent” and persevere “firm until the end”.
As did the giants of faith in (Heb 11) “believe”, Sabbath-keeping saints that having entered that rest did persevere and were diligent “firm until the end”.. These are like David and the saints of his day who chose to “Believe” and to “persevere faithful firm until the end”- born again saints of the OT who "believe and it was accounted unto them for righteousness". By faith - by "belief" these saints ENTERED just as we HAVE ENTERED His rest.
But of course Hebrews is contrasting this Psalms 95 message given in David’s time – in the OT – to the OT saints that uses the “Failing example” of those in Moses’ generation who died in the wilderness. Who failed “because of unbelief” see chapter 3
Heb 3:19 So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief. .
This point of failure due to unbelief also applies to those Jews who reject the Messiah – and the Psalms 95 “promise that remains” is given to the Sabbath keeping saints of David and his generation Saints already IN the land of Canaan.
Here again in Rom 11 we saw Paul arguing “in favor of fear” and pointing to the “negative examples” of those who fail to persevere, to believe to “continue in His kindness”. Paul argues that we are in the SAME system of success vs failure. “IF He did not SPARE THEM – neither will He spare you EITHER”. This is the basis/justification of his argument that we should “not be conceited but FEAR”.
But aside from these examples of failure - we do have the great examples of success of those that were "pleasing to God" and who found "Acceptance with God" mentioned in Heb 11.
ascund,
ascund:
I say self-righteous because the task of remaining in God's family (for you) requires your faithful obedience and endurance.
Jim:
The requirement to continue to believe is no more a work than the requirement to initially believe is. According to your logic, one should not even be required to believe in the first place, because that’s a work; God should just heap eternal life on everyone whether they want it or not and whether they believe or not, because that way no one can be said to engage in a work. Why you equate believing to a work, I have no idea.
Jim
ascund:
I say self-righteous because the task of remaining in God's family (for you) requires your faithful obedience and endurance.
Jim:
The requirement to continue to believe is no more a work than the requirement to initially believe is. According to your logic, one should not even be required to believe in the first place, because that’s a work; God should just heap eternal life on everyone whether they want it or not and whether they believe or not, because that way no one can be said to engage in a work. Why you equate believing to a work, I have no idea.
Jim
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
(Some claim Arminians are not supposed to "know" what Calvinists believe much less disagree with it.
We will leave them in that sand box for the sake of more objective research.)
Calvinists:
Assurance of salvation negated if you fail to endure to the end - salvation revoked retroactively (Calvinists).
As it turns out (In Calvinism) ONLY the SAINTS will actually FAIL to remain in their initial condition. ONLY THEY fail to persevere since they start out lost, in need of a savior, in need of forgiveness, in need of accepting Christ and THEN they ARE changed, are born again - saved. But if we ignore the Calvinist fact that ONLY those who will be saved FAIL TO PERSEVERE in their starting condition. (Which is to overlook a rather large blunder in Calvinism) we find that
#1. IN Calvinism NOBODY has a choice - the finally lost STAY lost and the elect STAY saved once they accept Christ.
#2. NEVER does EITHER group CHANGE or FAIL to persevere - that is IMPOSSIBLE and warning against such a thing ever happening is like warning people
about the danger of being robbed by the Easter Bunny. It would be to make it a mockery.
Testing the Calvinist conjecture on that point. IF their speculation was true we would "expect" emphasis in the Bible something like this
"You need not worry about persevering until the end since you will do so if you are saved, and can not possibly change anything in that regard in any case".
"There is no such thing as failing to persevere in the faith since such a failure would mean you actually WERE persevering IN the faith and had something to
FALL FROM. In fact you were fallen the entire time - and so you have never fallen FROM anything - you were always lost and can't change that today by
thinking you have accepted salvation".
Arminians:
(Arminians claim that anyone with an ounce of objective thought should be able to grasp Arminian teaching and may choose to agree or disagree with it).
Arminians have the assurance of salvation today but claim they may CHOOSE to lose it in the future.
NOTE:
(However - Calvinists don't even have that. Calvin accepted the teaching of scripture on the subject of perseverance of the saints and married it to Calvinism by retroactively revoking salvation for those who CLAIMED the promises but later FAILED to persevere. In Calvinism all the Bible promises and Christian walk you have today equals no assurance at all - nothing - if you do not persevere in the FUTURE. It is retroactively revoked.
But as with all Calvinist teaching - the test above is self-conflicted in that IF you fall away - THEN you did not fall away since you were lost the entire time and so you had nothing to fall FROM.
Fascinating - just fascinating!! Reminds me of the stellar thinking used to defend purgatory!!)
Testing the Arminian POV means that we would "expect" to find scriptures talking about
"you are IN Christ and doing well and will be ultimately taken to heaven IF you continue in that saved relationship and do not choose to FALL AWAY from
that condition - thus LOSING what you had".
=======================================
But BOTH Arminian and Calvinist do agree on one thing - the Bible does teach that ONLY those who persevere to the END are ultimately saved.
Under 5 point (TULIP) Calvinism you can't really know if you're saved today until you know if you will persevere tomorrow.
In Arminianism you CAN know you are saved today no matter WHAT you choose to do tomorrow.
So is it true that scripture leaves them "without excuse" for thinking that there is "no such thing as failing to endure"??
=========================================
But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.
We will leave them in that sand box for the sake of more objective research.)
Calvinists:
Assurance of salvation negated if you fail to endure to the end - salvation revoked retroactively (Calvinists).
As it turns out (In Calvinism) ONLY the SAINTS will actually FAIL to remain in their initial condition. ONLY THEY fail to persevere since they start out lost, in need of a savior, in need of forgiveness, in need of accepting Christ and THEN they ARE changed, are born again - saved. But if we ignore the Calvinist fact that ONLY those who will be saved FAIL TO PERSEVERE in their starting condition. (Which is to overlook a rather large blunder in Calvinism) we find that
#1. IN Calvinism NOBODY has a choice - the finally lost STAY lost and the elect STAY saved once they accept Christ.
#2. NEVER does EITHER group CHANGE or FAIL to persevere - that is IMPOSSIBLE and warning against such a thing ever happening is like warning people
about the danger of being robbed by the Easter Bunny. It would be to make it a mockery.
Testing the Calvinist conjecture on that point. IF their speculation was true we would "expect" emphasis in the Bible something like this
"You need not worry about persevering until the end since you will do so if you are saved, and can not possibly change anything in that regard in any case".
"There is no such thing as failing to persevere in the faith since such a failure would mean you actually WERE persevering IN the faith and had something to
FALL FROM. In fact you were fallen the entire time - and so you have never fallen FROM anything - you were always lost and can't change that today by
thinking you have accepted salvation".
Arminians:
(Arminians claim that anyone with an ounce of objective thought should be able to grasp Arminian teaching and may choose to agree or disagree with it).
Arminians have the assurance of salvation today but claim they may CHOOSE to lose it in the future.
NOTE:
(However - Calvinists don't even have that. Calvin accepted the teaching of scripture on the subject of perseverance of the saints and married it to Calvinism by retroactively revoking salvation for those who CLAIMED the promises but later FAILED to persevere. In Calvinism all the Bible promises and Christian walk you have today equals no assurance at all - nothing - if you do not persevere in the FUTURE. It is retroactively revoked.
But as with all Calvinist teaching - the test above is self-conflicted in that IF you fall away - THEN you did not fall away since you were lost the entire time and so you had nothing to fall FROM.
Fascinating - just fascinating!! Reminds me of the stellar thinking used to defend purgatory!!)
Testing the Arminian POV means that we would "expect" to find scriptures talking about
"you are IN Christ and doing well and will be ultimately taken to heaven IF you continue in that saved relationship and do not choose to FALL AWAY from
that condition - thus LOSING what you had".
=======================================
But BOTH Arminian and Calvinist do agree on one thing - the Bible does teach that ONLY those who persevere to the END are ultimately saved.
Under 5 point (TULIP) Calvinism you can't really know if you're saved today until you know if you will persevere tomorrow.
In Arminianism you CAN know you are saved today no matter WHAT you choose to do tomorrow.
So is it true that scripture leaves them "without excuse" for thinking that there is "no such thing as failing to endure"??
=========================================
Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.
And then there is always “Forgiveness revoked”!!
These texts do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.
But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.
The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.
Hey 1jim
Second, the initial act of believing is not a work. In John 3, Jesus equated it to a LOOK. One must make a wilfull decision to believe in Jesus. This is not a work.
Why would you want to use such extreme lines in an argument to justify your position. The best arguments come from a knowledgable view of your opponent.
When you know and rightly represent your opponent's position, then your arguments of refutation are all the stronger.
You make it easy for me with these extremist arguments.
LLoyd
First, believing in Jesus is not a work. Jesus clearly responded with a contrast in John 6:29: believe in Him. The crowds has asked YOUR question: "What must we do to be saved." Jesus' answer is my position: believe.
Second, the initial act of believing is not a work. In John 3, Jesus equated it to a LOOK. One must make a wilfull decision to believe in Jesus. This is not a work.
Slow down. You are making errant leaps here. One is required to believe because justifying faith is not a work. Justifying faith will produce sanctified works of purification. It is wrong to try to twist the LOOK of faith into a full-fledged system of obedience. Justification does not mix with sanctification. Justification forms the basis upon which sanctification stands.
Believing is NOT a work. I have no idea where you get this. Belief in Jesus is an active LOOK to Him - nothing more - nothing less.
Why would you want to use such extreme lines in an argument to justify your position. The best arguments come from a knowledgable view of your opponent.
When you know and rightly represent your opponent's position, then your arguments of refutation are all the stronger.
You make it easy for me with these extremist arguments.
LLoyd
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I don't blame you. I think I might be tempted to do the same thing if I were in your shoes - having to refute so many texts.
Also - you will need to ignore the "short posts" as well since they refer to the Bible texts in the large posts.
Just keep retreating farther back down that dark alley of OSAS in your "all-for-OSAS" blinders-on tactic.
In the mean time - I am free to quote all Gospel affirming texts of scripture I please - no worries. This is the way it was supposed to be all along.
More scripture for you to refute or ignore - coming up.
In Christ,
Bob