Greek Tenses and OSAS

[steaver]

You happen to believe the same thing as the 3 and 5 point Calvinist do when it comes to "perseverance"

How would this be? You said..."The OSAS 3 and 5 Point calvinist can not even know that for today - because when they see themselves fail to persevere 10 years from today - they will retro-delete all the supposed assurance that they claimed to have today".

I am OSAS and you say I am a 3 and 5 point Calvinist. But I do know today I will perservere and that in ten years I will still be perservering.

God Bless!

 

[BobRyan]

This is the same thing they claim as well. They CLAIM to KNOW what THEY will do ten years from today - but WHEN ten years from today comes along and they FAIL to persevere - their SAME 3 and 5 point buddies will say OF THEM - that their previous "Assurance" was void.

AND You have probably said the SAME thing about your FELLOW OSASers when you find one who FAILED to persevere. You have denied any previous history of his/her claiming to KNOW that they WOULD persevere or knowing that they WERE saved.

That problem is pretty obvious -- and the only way they have found to get around it - is to turn a blind eye to it - until it happens "to them".

But interestingly they have no problem pointing out the failure of their fellow OSASers that go into "obvious" and blatant debauchery. (Some TV evangelists come to mind).

So when I say that "They can not even know that" -- I am simply saying -- put aside the quirky illogical avoidance mechanism that each system uses to deny its own weaknesses. JUST LOOK at the various systems and COMPARE Them.

It is pretty easy to SEE that in the Arminian non-OSAS view one CAN know that they are SAVED today but CAN NOT know that they will CONTINUE to persevere ten years from today.

By the same token - we "see" what the OSAS + Perseverance model CAN know and what it CAN't know.

It is just that obvious.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
This is the same thing they claim as well. They CLAIM to KNOW what THEY will do ten years from today - but WHEN ten years from today comes along and they FAIL to persevere - their SAME 3 and 5 point buddies will say OF THEM - that their previous "Assurance" was void.

AND You have probably said the SAME thing about your FELLOW OSASers when you find one who FAILED to persevere. You have denied any previous history of his/her claiming to KNOW that they WOULD persevere or knowing that they WERE saved.

That problem is pretty obvious -- and the only way they have found to get around it - is to turn a blind eye to it - until it happens "to them".

But interestingly they have no problem pointing out the failure of their fellow OSASers that go into "obvious" and blatant debauchery. (Some TV evangelists come to mind).

So when I say that "They can not even know that" -- I am simply saying -- put aside the quirky illogical avoidance mechanism that each system uses to deny its own weaknesses. JUST LOOK at the various systems and COMPARE Them.

It is pretty easy to SEE that in the Arminian non-OSAS view one CAN know that they are SAVED today but CAN NOT know that they will CONTINUE to persevere ten years from today.

By the same token - we "see" what the OSAS + Perseverance model CAN know and what it CAN't know.

It is just that obvious.


In Christ,

Bob

So in the end, you, dear Bob Ryan was saved by works, not by grace!
Go for it, boy! You'll make no doubt, trusting in yourself for your endurance and perseverance till the end!

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
You happen to believe the same thing as the 3 and 5 point Calvinist do when it comes to "perseverance". My "guess" is that this is because you have heard a good Bible teacher speaking on the Bible doctrine of Perseverance and the fact that we must not toss it in the trash can (as does Lloyd). But I also think that the person you were listening to was a 3 or 5 point Calvinist -- so that the model you now have -- looks a lot like the 3 pointers would have it.

So as a Christian you choose the same good position on acceptance of the doctrine of perseverance - but then you combine that with the retro-deleted assurance solution they are forced into once they combine Perseverance with OSAS.

The best Arminian solution is consistently to KEEP the Bible teaching on perseverance but give up the tradition of OSAS.

In Christ,

Bob

Bob,
I don't believe in any of the points of Calvinism, neither am I an Arminian. You can puzzle over that for awhile if you wish, but I study and believe what the Bible says without being put in a box.
The Bible does teach "Once saved always saved," as a very Biblical doctrine that the Apostles themselves taught. I have been over this many times in different threads, and just answered you on this very topic in another thread. Usually my points go unanswered.
The SDA's believe in keeping the law. So lets look at it from that perspective.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse:
The SDA's keep the Sabbath, the "Commandments" and thus the "works of the law." They therefore have put themselves under the curse of the law.

The consequence:
for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
If you do not continue in ALL things that are written in the law, every day, every moment of your life, from birth to death, everything that is written in the law, you are cursed. You must keep everything in the law every day perfectly from birth to death, no exceptions. If you don't you are cursed. This is exactly what this verse says and teaches. If you but tell one lie you are cursed. If you have but one immoral thought you are cursed. If you cheat ohly one time in your life you are cursed. Likewise for stealing, taking the name's Lord name in vain, etc. One sin and only one sin in all of your life condmens you forever to a place called Hell, an eternal punishment in separation from God for all eternity. That is the curse.
But the truth is that you have not sinned just once. You have served many times, and no doubt many times each day, day after day after day. You life is not perfect, it is far from it. You have put yourself under the curse. You have not kept the law.

You can't live a perfect life. At one point in your life you must mae a decision: What sin sends you to Hell, and what sin is God going to say: "OK, that sin won't send you to Hell, we will just sweep it under the rug like the Catholics do." Do you really believe that? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--What's the teaching here? Telling a little white lie is just as bad in God's sight as murcer. Sin is sin; only the consequences are different. Sin is a transgression of the law of God (1John 3:4). If you have transgressed God's law you have sinned, whether it be in lying or in murder. They are both the same. Sin is sin. They are a transgression of the law. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

In short those that are under the law are condemned, and there is no way out for them.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law. For those who put their faith (and faith alone) in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, he has redeemed us from the curse of the law. It cannot be done any other way.
"For by grace are saved through faith and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not of works lest any man should boast."
Why? It was Christ that took the penalty of our sin on himself. He bore the burden of that sin by himself. He paid the penalty that we deserve. He took "the curse" that we deserve. Unless we take by faith the gift of eternal life that he offers us, we remain underneath the curse forever. If we take the gift of eternal life that he offers, that gift of eternal life can never become "Uneternal," by very definition of the word. Please tell me how eternal all of a sudden becomes temporaty. If you can do that, then you have shown me that Christ is a liar.
DHK

 

[1jim]

Hi steaver,


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

1. Jim, please do not say I said something I didn't. Did I ever say that a believer does not have to endure to the end?


Jim (in response, 09/23/05, 06:12pm):

To say that it is impossible to stop believing in Christ is tantamount to saying that a believer does not have to endure to the end; the idea of enduring to the end becomes meaningless if it is impossible not to endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13 o de upomeinaV eiV teloV outoV swqhsetai (But the one who endures to the end, this one will be saved.)

John 6:47 ... o pisteuwn ecei zwhn aiwnion (... the one who believes has eternal life.)

Rationalizing that it is impossible in Matthew 24:13 not to endure to the end is like rationalizing that it is impossible in John 6:47 not to believe. What gives the one who believes in John 6:47 his/her identity is the fact that it is possible not to believe. Likewise, what gives the one who endures in Matthew 24:13 his/her identity is the fact that it is possible not to endure.


steaver (in response, 09/23/05, 11:34pm):

Hi Jim, you missed all of my questions (but one) in my last post to you. I'll wait a bit, maybe you didn't have time to respond yet.


Jim (this message):

I didn’t answer the other 5 questions because they are beside the point. All the other 5 questions do is show the rationale that you’re using to evade the clear Biblical indication that, contrary to what you’re asserting, as described by your other 5 questions, it most certainly is possible for a true believer to stop believing in Christ.


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

2. Now, if you " know " the truth, how then can you stop believing that which you know?


Jim (this message):

Because, contrary to your assertion and the rationale that you’re using to assert it, the Bible indicates that a true believe can in fact stop believing in Christ.


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

3. Let me play the devil's advocate. Jim, I am a Muslim say, I have faith in what I have been taught. Why is your faith any different than mine or any others?


Jim (this message):

Because of the One in whom I have faith. The difference is the object of my faith.

You’re implying that there’s a difference in the quality of the faith as well. I don’t know about that. There have obviously been Muslims whose faith has been so strong that they have chosen death rather than deny what they believe. The same can be said of Christians. There have also been Christians and Muslims who’ve chosen to deny what they believe rather than suffer death as the penalty for believing what they believe. In fact, there are plenty of genuine Christians, in whom the Spirit of God dwells, who prefer to remain anonymous, who hide what they believe (a form of denial) rather than risk ridicule, much less death. Do you know anyone like that? I think that most true believers fall into this category. I know that I do. Sometimes I don’t hide my faith in Christ, but other times I do. It depends on how threatened I feel.

No doubt, you’ll say that a denial of what one believes, whether to evade death or whether to evade ridicule or whether to evade inconvenience, does not in any way alter either the fact that one truly believes in Christ or the quality of that belief. Well, all I know is that there have been Muslims who have chosen death rather than deny what they believe and that there have been genuine Christians, in whom the Spirit of God dwells, who have chosen to hide what they believe rather than risk ridicule or suffer inconvenience. That tells me that a Muslim’s faith can be every bit as strong as a genuine Christian’s faith can be, even though the object of the Muslim’s faith is not the truth whereas the object of the genuine Christian’s faith is the Truth.

What you have presented are WORDS, either stated or implied, of a theory that a Muslim cannot possibly have the same quality of faith that a genuine Christian has. What I am presenting to you is the historical ACTIONS of both Muslims and Christians that speak LOUDER than the WORDS of your theory speak.


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

4. How do you know Jesus is Lord Jim?


Jim (this message):

Because the Bible tells me so. I choose to believe that what the Bible says is the truth.


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

5. So I would ask...How do you know that your way of salvation is the right way, or don't you know?


Jim (this message):

Because the Bible tells me so. I choose to believe that what the Bible says is the truth.


steaver (09/23/05, 09:00am):

6. Are you just hoping it is?


Jim (this message):

I believe it is. However, there is an element of hope in what we believe. We hope for what we do not yet see. As Paul says in Romans 8:24-25 (ASV), “For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for it.” In Galatians 5:4-5 (ASV), Paul says, “Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.”

I don’t deny the influence of the Spirit in what we believe. Obviously, in what Paul says in Galatians 5:4-5 (quoted above), the influence of the Spirit is involved in our faith and our hope. However, we, as genuine Christians in whom the Spirit of God dwells, are ultimately free to believe whatever we want to believe. The Spirit does not force us to believe one way or the other.

If the influence of the Spirit were as irresistible as what you’ve suggested, then, given the fact that there is one Spirit and one Bible, all the numerous denominations, each of which interprets the Bible differently than the others do, could not have evolved. I repeat, if there is one Spirit and one Bible, yet out of this have evolved numerous denominations, each of which interprets the Bible differently than the others do, then obviously the influence of the Spirit is not as irresistible as what you’ve suggested it is. Obviously, despite the influence of the indwelling Spirit, we are free to believe whatever we want to believe ... and ... we are free to not believe whatever we don’t want to believe, which opens the door for genuine Christians, in whom the Spirit of God dwells, to come to a place where they literally no longer believe.

It is one thing to say that the Spirit enables one to believe. As Jesus says in John 3:3-6, “Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” However, it is another thing to say that the Spirit forces one to believe, either to believe initially or to continue to believe, which is what you’re suggesting.

The New Testament is filled with examples of genuine believers in Christ, in whom the Spirit of God dwells, NOT doing what the Spirit influences them to do. The New Testament writers are constantly redirecting these true believers toward the kind of behavior to which the Spirit is directing them, whose (the Spirit’s) direction they are obviously not following.

Your position is based on the assumption that the influence of the Spirit in the true believer is COMPULSIVE. However, the history of the Church and what the Bible itself says indicate otherwise.


Jim

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

If ever you have seen a contradiction in terms, here is it: "it most certainly is possible for a true believer to stop believing in Christ." "a true believer", "stops believing"?
And against all Scripture at that!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Quoting 1jim, "It is one thing to say that the Spirit enables one to believe. As Jesus says in John 3:3-6, “Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” However, it is another thing to say that the Spirit forces one to believe, either to believe initially or to continue to believe, which is what you’re suggesting."

The 'force' with which God 'forces', is the Power wherewith He not only DESTROYS the 'old man' but CREATES the 'new man' and TURNS the propensities FROM evil, TO love God. God 'forces', and doeth nothing against this His own Council or will. Thank God He smote the hip of his wrestling opponent to go hop along cassidy for the rest of his life, assured of his eternal salvation!

 

[BobRyan]

Bob Replies to Steaver's question about how he would fit in with 3 and 5 point Calvinists that ALSO share HIS view on perseverance vs OSAS.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
[qb] You happen to believe the same thing as the 3 and 5 point Calvinist do when it comes to "perseverance". My "guess" is that this is because you have heard a good Bible teacher speaking on the Bible doctrine of Perseverance and the fact that we must not toss it in the trash can (as does Lloyd). But I also think that the person you were listening to was a 3 or 5 point Calvinist -- so that the model you now have -- looks a lot like the 3 pointers would have it.

So as a Christian you choose the same good position on acceptance of the doctrine of perseverance - but then you combine that with the retro-deleted assurance solution they are forced into once they combine Perseverance with OSAS.

The best Arminian solution is consistently to KEEP the Bible teaching on perseverance but give up the tradition of OSAS.

DHK joins in --

Originally posted by DHK:

Bob,
I don't believe in any of the points of Calvinism, neither am I an Arminian.

I doubt that is even possible. Either you don't know all the points of the various groups within Calvinism or you don't understand them. EVEN ARMINIANS believe in some form of two of them.

DHK

The Bible does teach "Once saved always saved,"

This is the same starting point as we have on all debates -- all sides "claim" their view is in the bible.

No news there.

So on to Matt 18 to see how your view of OSAS holds up against scripture.

DHK said --
I have been over this many times in different threads, and just answered you on this very topic in another thread.

Feel free to post the link.

DHK
Usually my points go unanswered.

Hey - that's my line.

Post the link or send PM -- your answer is there for the asking.

DHK -

The SDA's believe in keeping the law. So lets look at it from that perspective.

Are you talking about Rom 3:31, James 2 or Romans 2?

Please specify.

And also - how does this get you out of the POINTED problem of "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" in Matt 18?

DHK -
You can't live a perfect life. At one point in your life you must mae a decision: What sin sends you to Hell, and what sin is God going to say: "OK, that sin won't send you to Hell, we will just sweep it under the rug like the Catholics do." Do you really believe that? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Read the Bible. In 1Cor 6 we see Paul giving the answer. (Hint: He starts with "BE NOT DECEIEVED" and then lists the sins you are looking for WITH the results you claim DO NOT EXIST).

So also does Romans 2:5-7 provide the SAME answer you claim does not exist in scripture.

How is that DHK?

Now lets get to the Bible point of "PERSEVERANCE FIRM UNTIL THE END".

IF as you say NO Amount of sinning is actuallly FAILURE to persevere - then WHAT does it mean to PERSEVERE DHK?

DHK If we take the gift of eternal life that he offers, that gift of eternal life can never become "Uneternal," by very definition of the word. Please tell me how eternal all of a sudden becomes temporaty. If you can do that, then you have shown me that Christ is a liar.
DHK

this is the classic "We have God trapped" solution of the 4 point Calvinist denying perseverance and claiming that NO MATTER WHAT God must take the wicked unbelieving OSASer (the one that failed to persevere) to heaven "anyway".

But INSTEAD OF THAT - God reveals in Matt 18 "FORGIVENESS REVOKED"!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jim said
I believe it is. However, there is an element of hope in what we believe. We hope for what we do not yet see. As Paul says in Romans 8:24-25 (ASV), “For in hope were we saved: but hope that is seen is not hope: for who hopeth for that which he seeth? But if we hope for that which we see not, [then] do we with patience wait for it.” In Galatians 5:4-5 (ASV), Paul says, “Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness.”

I don’t deny the influence of the Spirit in what we believe. Obviously, in what Paul says in Galatians 5:4-5 (quoted above), the influence of the Spirit is involved in our faith and our hope. However, we, as genuine Christians in whom the Spirit of God dwells, are ultimately free to believe whatever we want to believe. The Spirit does not force us to believe one way or the other.

Good points all.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[1jim]

Hi Gerhard Ebersoehn,


Gerhard Ebersoehn:

If ever you have seen a contradiction in terms, here is it: "it most certainly is possible for a true believer to stop believing in Christ." "a true believer", "stops believing"?


Jim:

A believer who stops believing is possible, just as an unbeliever who starts to believe is possible.


Gerhard Ebersoehn:

And against all Scripture at that!


Jim:

Passages that indicate that one can forfeit salvation by not enduring to the end.

(ASV) Matthew 10:17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to councils, and in theirs synagogues they will scourge you; 18 yea and before governors and kings shall ye be brought for my sake, for a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, be not anxious how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that hour what ye shall speak. 20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father that speaketh in you. 21 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child: and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee into the next: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone through the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come. 24 A disciple is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his lord. 25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his teacher, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more them of his household! 26 Fear them not therefore: for there is nothing covered, that shall not be revealed; and hid, that shall not be known. 27 What I tell you in the darkness, speak ye in the light; and what ye hear in the ear, proclaim upon the house-tops. 28 And be not afraid of them that kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. 29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? and not one of them shall fall on the ground without your Father: 30 but the very hairs of your head are all numbered. 31 Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. 32 Every one therefore who shall confess me before men, him will I also confess before my Father who is in heaven. 33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father who is in heaven. 34 Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. 35 For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: 36 and a man's foes [shall be] they of his own household. 37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me. 38 And he that doth not take his cross and follow after me, is not worthy of me. 39 He that findeth his life shall lose it; and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

(ASV) Matthew 24:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world? 4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am the Christ; and shall lead many astray. 6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars; see that ye be not troubled: for [these things] must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; and there shall be famines and earthquakes in divers places. 8 But all these things are the beginning of travail. 9 Then shall they deliver you up unto tribulation, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all the nations for my name's sake. 10 And then shall many stumble, and shall deliver up one another, and shall hate one another. 11 And many false prophets shall arise, and shall lead many astray. 12 And because iniquity shall be multiplied, the love of the many shall wax cold. 13 But he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.

(ASV) Mark 13:3 And as he sat on the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, 4 Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign when these things are all about to be accomplished? 5 And Jesus began to say unto them, Take heed that no man lead you astray. 6 Many shall come in my name, saying, I am [he]; and shall lead many astray. 7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars, be not troubled: [these things] must needs come to pass; but the end is not yet. 8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom; there shall be earthquakes in divers places; there shall be famines: these things are the beginning of travail. 9 But take ye heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in synagogues shall ye be beaten; and before governors and kings shall ye stand for my sake, for a testimony unto them. 10 And the gospel must first be preached unto all the nations. 11 And when they lead you [to judgment], and deliver you up, be not anxious beforehand what ye shall speak: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye; for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Spirit. 12 And brother shall deliver up brother to death, and the father his child; and children shall rise up against parents, and cause them to be put to death. 13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end, the same shall be saved.

(ASV) Hebrews 3:1 Wherefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, [even] Jesus; 2 who was faithful to him that appointed him, as also was Moses in all his house. 3 For he hath been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by so much as he that built the house hath more honor than the house. 4 For every house is builded by some one; but he that built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all his house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were afterward to be spoken; 6 but Christ as a son, over his house; whose house are we, if we hold fast our boldness and the glorying of our hope firm unto the end. 7 Wherefore, even as the Holy Spirit saith, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, Like as in the day of the trial in the wilderness, 9 Where your fathers tried [me] by proving [me,] And saw my works forty years. 10 Wherefore I was displeased with this generation, And said, They do always err in their heart: But they did not know my ways; 11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest. 12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: 13 but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin: 14 for we are become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end: 15 while it is said, To-day if ye shall hear his voice, Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation. 16 For who, when they heard, did provoke? nay, did not all they that came out of Egypt by Moses? 17 And with whom was he displeased forty years? was it not with them that sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that were disobedient? 19 And we see that they were not able to enter in because of unbelief. 4:1 Let us fear therefore, lest haply, a promise being left of entering into his rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it. 2 For indeed we have had good tidings preached unto us, even as also they: but the word of hearing did not profit them, because it was not united by faith with them that heard. 3 For we who have believed do enter into that rest; even as he hath said, As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

(ASV) Hebrews 6:4 For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. 7 For the land which hath drunk the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them for whose sake it is also tilled, receiveth blessing from God: 8 but if it beareth thorns and thistles, it is rejected and nigh unto a curse; whose end is to be burned. 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak: 10 for God is not unrighteous to forget your work and the love which ye showed toward his name, in that ye ministered unto the saints, and still do minister. 11 And we desire that each one of you may show the same diligence unto the fulness of hope even to the end: 12 that ye be not sluggish, but imitators of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

(ASV) Hebrews 9:24 For Christ entered not into a holy place made with hands, like in pattern to the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear before the face of God for us: 25 nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place year by year with blood not his own; 26 else must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once at the end of the ages hath he been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27 And inasmuch as it is appointed unto men once to die, and after this [cometh] judgment; 28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation.

(ASV) Hebrews 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. ... 19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by the way which he dedicated for us, a new and living way, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; 21 and [having] a great priest over the house of God; 22 let us draw near with a true heart in fulness of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience: and having our body washed with pure water, 23 let us hold fast the confession of our hope that it waver not; for he is faithful that promised: 24 and let us consider one another to provoke unto love and good works; 25 not forsaking our own assembling together, as the custom of some is, but exhorting [one another]; and so much the more, as ye see the day drawing nigh. 26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. 28 A man that hath set at nought Moses law dieth without compassion on [the word of] two or three witnesses: 29 of how much sorer punishment, think ye, shall he be judged worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Jim -

You are going to have to divide, parse and bold the text better than that if you don't want them to gloss over as much as they are -

(See the PM to you in the upper left corner of your screen)

Bob

 

[DHK]

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Bob,
I don't believe in any of the points of Calvinism, neither am I an Arminian.

I doubt that is even possible. Either you don't know all the points of the various groups within Calvinism or you don't understand them. EVEN ARMINIANS believe in some form of two of them.

I understand Calvinism mabe better than most. Both MacArthur and Samuel Fisk have written books that totally debunk every point of Calvinisim as heresy, or at least doctrines that Baptists would never believe in if they truly knew what Calvin was actually teaching in the TULIP acronym.

DHK
The Bible does teach "Once saved always saved,"

This is the same starting point as we have on all debates -- all sides "claim" their view is in the bible.
No news there.

It is no news to those that understand the doctrine salvation that once you are born into God's family God will not disown you. It is a simple concept. God is not a liar. You are right. There is no news here. It has been taught from the beginning of time.

So on to Matt 18 to see how your view of OSAS holds up against scripture.

I have pointed out this Scripture many times. What on earth does: "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother, 7 times?"
"Nay, but I say unto you 70 times 7."
And then Jesus goes on to illustrate the importance of why we should forgive our brother and how we should forgive our brother. A parable is meant to teach one major point. Not everything in the parable is meant to be taken literal. It stesses the point of forgiveness of thy brother. It teaches nothing of salvation. You're assumptions on this passage are way off. Look at the context again. It is about forgiving one's brother; it has nothing to do with salvation or (OSAS). Context is everything.

I'll give you another example so you can clearly understand what I am talking about. Remeber the parable about the woman who had ten coins and lost one. She swept her house until she found the one missing coin, and then called her neighbors to come and rejoice with her for she had found the coin that once was lost but now was found.
Now let me ask you: In the parable, what does the broom represent. Think hard about this. I'll now give you the answer. It represents nothing more than a utensil that you sweep the floor with. It is a broom, and nothing more. It is not the Holy Spirit, or anything else. It is simply a broom. You cannot give a symbolic attachment to everything in the parable. The teaching: That which was lost is found--just like the sinner who came to Christ.
You do the same thing in Matthew 18--put too much emphasis on parts of the parable where Jesus did not mean for one to put any emphasis or symbolic meaning at all. It was meant to teach forgiveness of a brother. "How many times should I forgive my brother?

DHK said --
I have been over this many times in different threads, and just answered you on this very topic in another thread.

Feel free to post the link.

Try page 4 (the last page) of "Does God send His children to Hell?"

DHK
Usually my points go unanswered.

The SDA's believe in keeping the law. So lets look at it from that perspective.

Are you talking about Rom 3:31, James 2 or Romans 2?
Please specify.

Gal.3:10-13. See below.

And also - how does this get you out of the POINTED problem of "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" in Matt 18?

This imaginary teaching of yours is nowhere to be found in Mat.18

DHK -
You can't live a perfect life. At one point in your life you must mae a decision: What sin sends you to Hell, and what sin is God going to say: "OK, that sin won't send you to Hell, we will just sweep it under the rug like the Catholics do." Do you really believe that? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Read the Bible. In 1Cor 6 we see Paul giving the answer. (Hint: He starts with "BE NOT DECEIEVED" and then lists the sins you are looking for WITH the results you claim DO NOT EXIST).

I suggest you read the Bible.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
--The key here is that it says "shall not inherit the kingdom of God; it does not say "shall not enter the kingdom of God." There is a difference.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
--"And such were some of you." That is past tense. They were those things, but are not any more. Now those sins have been put under the blood never to be remembered any more. They have been justified, meaning--just as if they have never sinned. They have been sanctified (made holy in God's sight). They are washed. Their sins are washed away completely by the blood of the lamb. Oh, GLORY!!
What salvation is this! Never have to worry about losing the gift of eternal life that God has given them. It is a wonderful passage isn't it?

So also does Romans 2:5-7 provide the SAME answer you claim does not exist in scripture.

Romans 2:5-7 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Context is everything isn't it? So far you have pulled quite a few verses out of context, as well as this passage. Who is he talking to here Bob?
Read on:

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

The unsaved Jew will face the same judgement that the unsaved Gentile will face.
Romans chapter one God addresses the unsaved Gentile.
Romans chapter two God addresses the unsaved Jew.
Romans 2 and 3 God address all: both Jew and Gentile, that they are all under sin (Rom.3:23).

Verse 6 tells us plainly that an unsaved Jew will stand before the same judgment (the Great White Throne judgement) that an unsaved Gentile will.
Thus the implication in verse 7 is that a saved Jew, like a saved Gentile will continue in patient continuance, seeking after eternal life, and will atain it after the end of his life, not by good works, but by faith. The good works are the fruit of his faith in Christ. The patient continuance is the result of a true believer's conversion to Christ. Remember he is writing to Jews.

How is that DHK?
Now lets get to the Bible point of "PERSEVERANCE FIRM UNTIL THE END".

Put in context of writing to the Jews it makes perfect sense. They were accustomed to following the letter of the law. Paul was teachinng them a Christian simply must continue in the life that Christ gave them. But that life is a natural outgrowth or a true conversion.
Read the entire chapter to see what Paul is saying. He is contrasting the law to faith.
Read what he says when he finally comes to the end:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--Circumcision is of the heart. It is true belief, not just an outward religiion. This is what Paul had been emphasizing all along. "Patient continuance." The good works couldn't save them, not matter how many they did. It was faith in Christ. It was circumcision of the heart--faith in Christ. Take everything in context. Read the chapter, not just a verse here and there. Psalm 14:1 says "There is no God." Do you believe that too? Everything has a context.

IF as you say NO Amount of sinning is actuallly FAILURE to persevere - then WHAT does it mean to PERSEVERE DHK?

It is speaking of the Christian life. A Christian, by virtue of the fact that he is a Christian, will persevere. I have no problem believing that. Do you? I have no intention of denying Christ. Do you?

DHK If we take the gift of eternal life that he offers, that gift of eternal life can never become "Uneternal," by very definition of the word. Please tell me how eternal all of a sudden becomes temporaty. If you can do that, then you have shown me that Christ is a liar.
DHK

this is the classic "We have God trapped" solution of the 4 point Calvinist denying perseverance and claiming that NO MATTER WHAT God must take the wicked unbelieving OSASer (the one that failed to persevere) to heaven "anyway".

But INSTEAD OF THAT - God reveals in Matt 18 "FORGIVENESS REVOKED"!
In Christ,
Bob

Mat. 18 does not teach your imaginary "forgiveness revoked doctrine. You won't find it there. Therefore you are the one with a problem.
God is not trapped. Oh no! It is Bob that is trapped. Words have meanings.
"I give unto them eternal life." Eternal means eternal, not temporary. Are you really willing to call Christ a liar in this matter. He said he gives us eternal life. There is no other meaning here.

"They shall never perish." This is another absolute statement. Are you willing to call Christ a liar on this statement also. Words have meaning. Never perish means never perish. Do you have another meaning for it? I would like to hear if you do?

"My Father which gave them me is greater than all, and no man is able to pluck them out of may Father's hand."
--No man is able to pluch them out of my father's hand. There is another absolute statement. What does it mean? It means OSAS, just like the above statements. I ask you again, Does Christ lie? Let me answer that question with Scripture:

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
DHK

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by DHK:
I understand Calvinism mabe better than most. Both MacArthur and Samuel Fisk have written books that totally debunk every point of Calvinisim as heresy, or at least doctrines that Baptists would never believe in if they truly knew what Calvin was actually teaching in the TULIP acronym.

I thought MacArthur consistently presented the 3 point Calvinist view on depravity on perseverance and on unconditional election.

EVEN Arminians agree with Total Depravity and with perseverance in that the saints who are saved in the end - will be able to trace a line of "perseverance firm until the end" back from the point of glorification to their justification along that contiguous timeline.

What am I missing?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said - So on to Matt 18 to see how your view of OSAS holds up against scripture.

Originally posted by DHK:
I have pointed out this Scripture many times. What on earth does: "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother, 7 times?"
"Nay, but I say unto you 70 times 7."
And then Jesus goes on to illustrate the importance of why we should forgive our brother and how we should forgive our brother. A parable is meant to teach one major point. Not everything in the parable is meant to be taken literal. It stesses the point of forgiveness of thy brother. It teaches nothing of salvation.

Errr - umm that is the part we agree on.

It is OUT of salvation's REAL forgiveness that the sinner is saved, changed, brought into harmony with Christ's character and then "expected" to CHOOSE to forgive others AS HE HAS BEEN forgiven.

It is only the REALITY of that salvific event giving REAL forgiveness and REAL new birth -- that FORMS the expectation that the one forgiven so magnificently should himself in his own small realm offer the spirit of forgiveness to others.

That is PRECISELY why we EXPECT him to forgive others.

Originally posted by DHK:

You're assumptions on this passage are way off.

Not even close DHK. By entering in through the right gate here - you are in a place where "forgiveness revoked" forgiveness of the INITIAL SALVIFIC DEBT you just admitted to -- is devastating to OSAS!

Originally posted by DHK:
Look at the context again. It is about forgiving one's brother; it has nothing to do with salvation or (OSAS).

You have utterly flip-flopped before you got started.

By ADMITTING that the INITIAL debt was the SALVIFIC event of REAL forgiveness for the sinner - you have painted yourself into a corner where simply flip/flopping as in the statement above will never solve your problem.

Christ said in ILLUSTRATION of that 70x7 forgiveness for others that is BASED on one FIRST being forgiven by God "FOR THIS REASON the kingdom of God is compared to ...".

And HE STARTS with the GREAT and magnificent forgiveness of our King toward each of us!

This point is so devastating to your case -- how do you get out of it?

Surely you do not think Christ is lying in Matt 18 do you?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
You do the same thing in Matthew 18--put too much emphasis on parts of the parable where Jesus did not mean for one to put any emphasis or symbolic meaning at all.

So now you are going to deny the CENTRAL point to Matt 18 which is that it is OUT OF our salvific REAL and magnificent forgiveness received FROM GOD in the Gospel that we are expected to forgive others?

OR are you going to deny the MAIN CONCLUSION to the parable given by Christ EXPLICITLY "SO shall my Father do to EACH ONE OF YOU IF you do not..."??

Which salient point of the text are you going to deny to resurrect OSAS?

Innexplicably in your long post above you IGNORE BOTH of these salient points - CENTRAL to the text!! You thereby ignore the obvious glaring flaw in your gloss-over of Matt 18!!

DHK - how can you live with that??

Surely you are not simply going to turn off the lights on MAtt 18 and walk away from BOTH of those CENTRAL and SALIENT points IN the text are you??

I can't believe I am reading what you just did in that post!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said --
I have been over this many times in different threads, and just answered you on this very topic in another thread.

Bob said --

Feel free to post the link.

DHK said
Try page 4 (the last page) of "Does God send His children to Hell?"

That is your post here --
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3399/4.html#000049

Which I answered on that same thread 3 posts later here --

http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3399/4.html#000054

And then you never responded.

DHK
Usually my points go unanswered.

This is another time - where the facts don't seem to support your claim on this particular point.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK said
The SDA's believe in keeping the law. So lets look at it from that perspective.

Bob asks -- Are you talking about Rom 3:31, James 2 or Romans 2?
Please specify.

John 14 "IF you love me KEEP My commandments"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then MAKE VOID the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid!! We establish the Law of God"

The point is clear - rebellion against God's Word is NEVER the recommended path for the people of God.

Obviously.

DHK said

Gal.3:10-13. See below.

Gal 3 points to the work/function of the law BEFORE salvation.

Rom 3:31, John 14, Romans 2 shows the function of the law for the saints AFTER salvation.

Your argument seems to want to insert an either-or fallacy.

Obviously It has to be BOTH AND.

Bob asks
And also - how does this get you out of the POINTED problem of "FORGIVENESS REVOKED" in Matt 18?

DHK
This imaginary teaching of yours is nowhere

Good unproven assertion.

And now the proof?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

DHK -
You can't live a perfect life. At one point in your life you must mae a decision: What sin sends you to Hell, and what sin is God going to say: "OK, that sin won't send you to Hell, we will just sweep it under the rug like the Catholics do." Do you really believe that? Are you a Catholic in disguise?

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Bob said -- Read the Bible. In 1Cor 6 we see Paul giving the answer.

(Hint: He starts with "BE NOT DECEIEVED" and then lists the sins you are looking for WITH the results you claim DO NOT EXIST).[/qb]

7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful for me, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be mastered by anything.

Notice that Paul contrasts rebellion with the new birth and claims that those living in rebellion are NOT going to heaven.

He says this IN ARGUMENT against the saints in 1Cor 6 going to law against each other. He is MOTIVATING RIGHT behavior by contrasting WRONG behavior and pointing out that you are NOT going to heaven with that behavior.

Again - nothing could be more obvious.

DHK
--The key here is that it says "shall not inherit the kingdom of God; it does not say "shall not enter the kingdom of God."

If it is your claim that PAul was arguing that

"the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom[/b] of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God but they WILL ALL ENTER the kingdom of God"??

What kind of twist is that in Paul's argument?

Answer - A 180 degree twist about.

.


you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed,

Paul argues that they STOPPED that rebellion and should not RETURN to it.

You claim Paul is arguing that IN REBELLION they WILL ENTER heaven!!

I just can't believe you go to these extremes in eisegesis DHK!

Where do you get that?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --
So also does Romans 2:5-7 provide the SAME answer you claim does not exist in scripture.[/qb]

In vs 4 God places Romans 2 IN THE CONTEXT of the Gospel call to repentance --

Then in the next 10 verses He SHOWS BOTH the successful AND the failing cases.

Those who doctrinal bias only allows a myopic view of Romans 2 - so they ONLY SEE the failures - have to turn a blind eye to almost half the chapter!!

4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance?

5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;
13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.

14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

DHK
Context is everything isn't it?

Yep - we see vs 4 STARTS with the kindness and patience of God in the Gospel call to repentance!

we SEE that BOTH the successfull AND the failing cases are listed above!!

Noticing "details" what freedom!!

How nice to be able to accept that text JUST as it reads!!

DHK
So far you have pulled quite a few verses out of context, as well as this passage.

You seem to be struggling with the direct reading of those verses. Why?

Notice that ALL THROUGH the chapter it is BOTH JEWS and Gentiles in view.

"To the Jew FIRST and THEN to the Gentile".

It is not a myopic topic of "ONLY the JEW is ALWAYS condemned" DHK -- Paul Himself is an example of a faithul Jew.

Hence he declares

7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

God is saying that the JEWISH MYOPIC view that ONLY JEWS are acceptable is wrong because BOTH Jews and Gentiles will face hell or heaven on the SAME basis!!

DHK said

Who is he talking to here Bob? Read on:

Romans 2:17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,

The unsaved Jew will face the same judgement that the unsaved Gentile will face.

Yep - that would be the myopic point that ONLY sees the failing cases?

DHK
Romans chapter two God addresses the unsaved Jew.

I see so we can turn a blind eye to that example of "ETERNAL LIFE" God promised in Romans 2 to BOTH the JEWS and GENTILES that were faithful?

Just wanted to be sure about what we are supposed to ignore.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob said --
How is that DHK?
Now lets get to the Bible point of "PERSEVERANCE FIRM UNTIL THE END".

DHK said

He is contrasting the law to faith.
Read what he says when he finally comes to the end:

Romans 2:28-29 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
--Circumcision is of the heart. It is true belief, not just an outward religiion. This is what Paul had been emphasizing all along.

Yep Paul emphasizes BOTH the SUCCESSFUL and the failing cases "FOR the JEW FIRST and ALSO for the Gentile" in Romans 2.

And we SEE that in Romans 2 it is "NOT the HEARERS but the DOERS of the law of God that are JUSTIFIED".

We are clear on the gospel concept of justification - right?

In Christ,

Bob