Greek Tenses and OSAS

[BobRyan]

Since a number here are trying to find ways to deny the Bible teaching ono Perseverance - I thought I would remind the group of what THE TEXT says --

I know that seeing these quotes of scripture will likely have Lloyd trying to "refute scripture again" --

But here they are "anyway"

Originally posted by BobRyan:


Does the text say "SINCE you are already saved you will of course naturally persevere firm until the end"??

OR DOES it say "IF INDEED you PERSEVERE FIRM until the end" DHK?

That seems to be the crux of proving your point above.


</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />
Matt 10:22 but it is he who has endured until the end that will be saved.

Heb 2:1-3
1. For this reason we must pay close attention to what have heard lest we drift away from it

Heb 3:6 but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence
and the boast of our hope firm until the end.

Heb 3:12-14
12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.
13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called ""Today,'' so that none of you will be hardened
by the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end,


Heb 10:35-39
35 Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.
37 FOR YET IN A VERY LITTLE WHILE, HE WHO IS COMING WILL COME, AND WILL NOT DELAY.
38 BUT MY RIGHTEOUS ONE SHALL LIVE BY FAITH; AND IF HE SHRINKS BACK, MY SOUL HAS NO PLEASURE IN HIM.
39 But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.

1Cor 15:1-2
1 Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received,
in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain.

Rom 11:22
20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness,
if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Col 1:21-23
22 He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death in order to PRESENT you before Him
Holy and Blameless and beyond reproach
23 IF INDEED you CONTINUE in the faith FIRMLY established and STEADFAST and NOT MOVED AWAY
from the HOPE of the Gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven
and of which I Paul was made a minister.


Rev 2:7,11,17,26 3:5, 12,21 Eternal life to 'he who overcomes'.

Gal 6:7-9 Don't lose heart in doing good for reap et life IF we ..
8 For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption, but the one who sows to the
Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary.

Mark 13:13 Belief + enduring to the END = SAVED
Matthew 24:13 ""But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved."

Matthew 10:22 "You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one
who has endured to the end who will be saved."

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.


Stated that REAL Examples of such failure exist.

2Peter 2:20-22
18 For speaking out arrogant words of vanity they entice by fleshly desires, by sensuality,
those who barely escape from the ones who live in error,
19 promising them freedom while they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by what a man is overcome, by this he is enslaved.
20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first.
21 For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it,
to turn away from the holy commandment handed on to them.
22 It has happened to them according to the true proverb, "" A DOG RETURNS TO ITS OWN VOMIT,'' and,
""A sow, after washing, returns to wallowing in the mire.''

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been
made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify
to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open same.
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also
tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

These texts do not describe a casual “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

Well what did you read there?

"Naturally there is no need to worry about persevering FIRM until the end because you just naturally will"???

OR

"Better be sure to PERSEVERE FIRM until the end because only THEY will inherit..."??

Which did you actually SEE vs which did you "wish to see"?

The details above are pretty obvious to the reader

</font>[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

I am sure there are those who would read the texts above and decry anyone that actually chooses to "Believe the text" without editing it or trying to do a "Self translated version" that is more pleasing to the traditions and bias of one group or another -- but I would say that the word of God as posted above - is in fact "believable".

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Sularis]

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Let's deal with your poorly thought out pulled from somewhere wet and dark verses

This verse clearly states you fall away - you cant come back.

Ok cant argue with that - what constitutes falling away - Hrm well the word para-pipto seems to indicate that we are cast out/pushed away due to some failure on our part.

What makes God cast out that which He has saved?

I make the suggestion that one can be backslidden and yet still saved - the typical verse 1CO 3:15 - feel free to view context.

I also make the suggestion that in noways shall God cast out those who come to Him.

So as to be clear - Please state what causes us to fall away - If possible illustrate the exact point at which one does so.

Thanx

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Gross confusion of the mutual exclusivity of justification and sanctification makes interpretation difficult. The positional destiny of apostate believers is secure, but they might lose their conditional rewards. The natural conclusion of the words “impossible” and “better” destroys the Arminian view. The Bible testifies to abundant forgiveness.

The word “impossible” is the death knell for Arminianism. They are right for trying to wiggle out of the common sense understanding. If we take this word “impossible” to its natural conclusions then even the Arminian Sadvocates have no proper explanation and quickly avoid any further discussions on that avenue. Why? In the Arminain view, if a person was saved and then lost, it would be impossible to restore such a person. This is heavy duty trouble for the Arminian view since it nullifies repentance, forgiveness, and restoration. It makes Christianity a hopeless one-shot religion. Thus, even Burton “backs off” from the natural consequences of his self-righteous system by using theological “double-talk” in order to disguise it. He sees the natural result but instead of adjusting his system to fit Scripture, he adjusts scripture to fit his beliefs.

The natural conclusions of the word “impossible” should make anyone see that salvation is not being discussed. This is a good example of how an unclear verse should not be allowed to nullify an already clearly established doctrine.

Verses 7-8 show us what is being discussed by using an analogy to farmland. The land wasn’t productive. Nothing but thorns grew on it and the owner had to bear its fruitlessness. Today, many people burn their lawns to eliminate dead stuff and enhance the new growth. Burning only prepares it for the next cycle of cultivating, sowing and reaping so that it can bring fruit in its due time. The ground properly burned and prepared will produce fruit NEXT YEAR! The Arminian view would have to say that land can only produce one crop or that God doesn’t tend to His own fields or that after burning the field He sells it. Each of these options is a damnable heresy!

In verse 9, the readers receive BETTER things than the apostates. Better is a comparative word. Both apostates and the faithful receive the same type of judgment differing only in a comparative degree. The faithful receive a better reward than the apostates; not a different destiny as in heaven or hell. Here again, if a different type of judgment was in mind the author had other choices of words such as: ajrtavto~ or e{tero~ (Gal 1:6) or nearly 100 other words.

In context, the Jewish Christians suffering from intense Roman persecution had determined to return to the faith of their fathers. They thought that God was still pleased with the Old Covenant system. Their mind was made up – it would be impossible to return them to the faith. The author was writing to say that God had abandoned the Old Covenant in favor of the New. The author used strong words because they were actually turning their backs on the Majestic God to Whom they thought they returning.

There is no mention of eternal damnation. Either the author was terribly incompetent to clearly denounce OSASt OR the issue of losing one’s eternal life was never considered because the author believed in OSAS! Clearly God isn’t incompetent; so OSAS is biblical.

Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

God's WORD -

Heb 6:4-8
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
[/quote]

Originally posted by Sularis:

Let's deal with your poorly thought out pulled from somewhere wet and dark verses

I dont think I have seen God's Word treated with that much disgust before - but clearly you are not afraid to present it as in opposition to your traditions.

I give you credit for admitting to it.

Originally posted by Sularis:
This verse clearly states you fall away - you cant come back.

The problem is that "you can not FALL AWAY from BEING LOST" you do not go from "Lost" to "LOSTER".

And there is where your view fails right at the start.

Originally posted by Sularis:

So as to be clear - Please state what causes us to fall away - If possible illustrate the exact point at which one does so.

James identifies the path pretty clearly.

But you are again very consistent in using THE VERY WORDING of the TEXT of scripture to show your displeasure with it.

It is HEB 6 that speaks of "falling away". You challenge it saying "SHOW ME - SHOW ME falling away" -- as if you have found something to challnge the text.

You have not.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.

Heb 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

But then.... it perishes.

IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

(This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Heb 6
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

Heb 6
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
want to fall.

 

[ascund]

Per normal Bob cannot come to grips with the words "impossible" and "better."

The word "impossible" condemns his denials of Christ's Cross and God's faithfulness. The clear teaching of the word shows that his system of human-centered self-righteousness leads to an irrecoverable death. For Bob's obtuse system, one sin and it is IMPOSSIBLE to repent. Yet the Bible repeatedly shows that repentance is available to all - in any state - many times.

Bob goes out of his way to cover up the natural occurrences of his system of death.

[quote:]Heb 6:7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.[/quote]

Bob cannot handle the word "BETTER." The ground that grows weeds isn't sold - it is burned so that it can produce fruit the next year. Bob twists and turns so avoid the clear OSAS implications. God, the farmer, is faithful and will plant seed next year.

Bob is so blind that all he can do is print words without thinking. His human-centered philosophy opposes God and Christ's righteousness at every turn.

Lloyd

 

[Sularis]

I believe Heb - says IF someone could stop being saved - then they cant be resaved. This to me means sin is stronger - IF this view was true.

WHICH IT ISNT

All I am asking is for is an example - preferrably two - of where a Christian can fall away - rocky ground, thorns - don't count - I'd like actions more clearly defined as to what causes one to fall from being saved.

PS - I have plenty of respect for Scripture - just not the people quoting it - and that's Biblical

 

[ascund]

Greetings

You have grasped the point rather well!

Originally posted by Sularis:
I believe Heb - says IF someone could stop being saved - then they cant be resaved. This to me means sin is stronger - IF this view was true.

WHICH IT ISNT

Now you have followed the first strike with another excellent request:

All I am asking is for is an example - preferrably two - of where a Christian can fall away - rocky ground, thorns - don't count - I'd like actions more clearly defined as to what causes one to fall from being saved.

Christ-denying Arminians are not able to respond with a clear example. They will run to the many sanctification passages and try to redefine them as justification. This is why Luther held that justification is the chief article by which the Church or an individual stands or falls!

Great post!
Super penetrating question!
No Arminian will answer your question directly.

Lloyd

 

[Sularis]

Pssst - Im not a Calvinist

and I DONT really see how being one or the other or in the middle affects OSAS - since I've seen both sides split on this issue

Remember its very important WE dont lose our salvation IF we can lose it. GOD casts us out/off. SO this indicates something we do pisses off God more then our usual sinning for which HE is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness; and so HE being royally ticked kicks us out!

So this is crucial what can we do to get kicked out?

If no one cares to answer this - anyone want to play "Let's Pretend!" and come up with an answer that would work in the pretend world of lost salvation.

 

[ccrobinson]

I'll play "Let's Pretend". I believe in OSAS and just finished a debate in another thread with somebody who doesn't believe in OSAS and has taken his ball and bat and gone home.

I asked this very question, what specific actions will cause us to lose our salvation. To his credit, he gave a list, a list that I didn't think I would ever see, and here it is.

Posted by somebody else in a different thread.:

"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.

What if we went through these one at a time to see which one or more could cause us to lose our salvation?

I talked about John 15 in another thread and here's my conclusion.

John 15:2-6

Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Let's assume that John 15 is actually speaking of salvation. If so, there's trouble here for the Christian.

However, what do we do with Galatians 2:20?

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

If Christ lives in us as Christians, then John 15 would mean that Christ himself would be cut off from the vine. In other words, Christ living in us, the branch, would be cut off from Christ the vine.

Absurd!

Christ can't be cut off from himself and he certainly can't be burned. So, John 15 would mean that Christ is going to leave the unfruitful Christian so they can be cut off and burned. But, I seem to remember where He said He wasn't going to leave us.

Hebrews 13:5

Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

If John 15 is about salvation, then God is totally lying to us in Galatians 2:20 and Hebrews 13:5. However, I remember Romans 3:4.

Romans 3:4

God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

This says that He doesn't lie, but man does.

The only inescapable conclusion we can draw is that John 15 doesn't speak of salvation. If I'm missing something about John 15 that I need to see, please enlighten me. Otherwise... next!

 

[BobRyan]

Since Lloyd - and a few others are ducking the point about "falling away from LOST" being a "GOOD THING" and NOT being the subject of Heb 6 -- I post it "again" hoping that the text itself will soon "have some interest" for those that reject it.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Both sides agree that Paul is not writing to people that have back-slidden from Christianity and no longer read scripture etc.Rather the READER is going to be some Christian with a copy of the letter to the Hebrews - probably one who is faithful. That is not the issue.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Heb 6
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Not unlike the example Christ gives of the rocky ground where the seed of eternal life DOES bring forth life and for a time it grows and flourishes - life from the dead - as ONLY God can bring about. Brought "to repentance" in such a GOOD way that when one falls away we might seek to RENEW them to such a GOOD state.

But then.... it perishes.

IN the case of those WHO HAVE once BEEN enlightened!

(This is the view of the lost - in darkness ACCEPTING light such that they ARE enlightened - at least at one time).

AND have tasted of the heavenly gift

Not the description of the totally depraved lost.


AND have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

This is never the description of the totally depraved lost experience.

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

Notice the first state of “The Heavenly gift” and “partaking of the Holy Spirit” is the state in which they are supposed to have REMAINED. They are never chastised for BEING in that state – as if that was still “the lost state”. Indeed falling away from “a lost state” could only have been a good thing.

On the other hand – if that state were merely the corrupt state of false profession and halting just outside the threshold of the kingdom- then who cares whether we can RENEW THEM AGAIN to such an indecisive, unsaved, lost and totally depraved state of corruption?

Calvinists make a mockery of this text by denying it's clear meaning regarding RENEWING people back to Godly - genuine repentance and “tasting of the REAL heavenly gift” which is salvation itself.

Eph 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Heb 6
7 For ground that drinks the rain which often falls on it and brings forth vegetation useful to those for whose sake it is also tilled, receives a blessing from God;
8 but if it yields thorns and thistles, it is worthless and close to being cursed, and it ends up being burned.

Many/most calvinists would have us believe that worthless ground does NOT receive the same grace/ministry/drawing/calling as the good ground AND SO IT STAYS as worthless ground. INSTEAD of that view - scripture says they both receive the life giving ministry but the ground ITSELF is determining the response.

Heb 6
9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
want to fall. [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]

 

[BobRyan]

"AND THEN HAVE FALLEN AWAY"

clearly FALLING away from being LOST is not a bad thing - it is a GOOD thing.

In Calvinism the lost never "fall away" from being lost. ONLY THE SAINTS can "fall away" ONLY THE SAINTS fail to remain in their initial condition, it is impossible for the totally depraved LOST to “fall away” from being lost.

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

 

[ascund]

Silly BobRyan

Falling away is NOT a good thing. Such mindless jumps from one extreme to another are childish and unscholarly.

But know for certain that falling away is NOT associated with eternal damnation. It is an issue of rewards. Falling away = no (or few) rewards.

When one cannot (or is not able to) comprehend justification, then many errors follow.

Bob confuses justification with sanctification. He botches destiny with rewards. No telling how many other lies he has had to fabricate in order to continue embracing the devil's deceptions.

Your analysis fails because you do not pay attention to the word "impossible." If your system is right, then no one can ever repent. If your system is right, then we all go to hell. Your system is void of true hope. It is a system of death.

Trust Christ alone!
Lloyd

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by ascund:


Falling away is NOT a good thing.

Not for the saints it is NOT -- that is obvious.

But when some here bend and spin the text of Heb 6 so that INSTEAD of the obvious statement it makes about the saved "falling away" and the warning it gives -- it is made to talk about the LOST FALLING away -- THEN you have a double negative and you have turned the text on its head!!

And as noted - FALLING AWAY from BEING LOST - is not to be "LOSTER" as some have supposed. That nonsensical spin of the text - failed.

Obviously.

You on the other hand try to limit the meaning to "number of toys in heaven"

Lloyd said
But know for certain that falling away is NOT associated with eternal damnation. It is an issue of rewards. Falling away = no (or few) rewards.

But no toys are even mentioned rather it is "ESCAPED" that is mentioned. It is THE HOLY SPIRIT that is mentioned. It is the BASICS of salvation that are being experienced and then LEFT!

To deny that the Holy Spirit is essential to eternal life as you are doing - is to deny the Gospel itself!

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

ENDS up being BURNED is not spinnable to "ends up with fewer toys in heaven".

 

[BobRyan]

Paul speaks of those that THEN have FALLEN AWAY from repentance, from the Holy Spirit, from the Heavenly Gift which is in fact salvation itself given as a gift through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Notice the first state of REPENTANCE is NOT called into question –

 

[HanSola2000]

Calvinists are deceivers. Hebrews is clear about what can happen to backsliders, and to those who would return to Judaism--damnation. YOur excuses can never change the real threat sin poses to us all.

 

[ascund]

Hey BobRyan

More foolishness on your part. It doesn't even pass the common sense testing.

Originally posted by BobRyan:
ENDS up being BURNED is not spinnable to "ends up with fewer toys in heaven".

Ask farmers with weeds in their fields what they do. They will say, burn the field so that I can get a good crop next year.

But Bob would have it seem as if burn the crop so that I can lose the field. Where is the common sense Bob? This ploy is the result of a human-centered attempt to please God. In doing so, you unwittingly deny Christ and His righteousness.

So you botch the common sense understanding of all the key words in the text: impossible, burn, and better.

That is a total strike out in one context!
Lloyd

 

[ascund]

Greetings

Originally posted by BobRyan:
Heb 6:9 But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way.
10 For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints.

Notice in the comparison - Paul makes it very clear that it is the SAVED state that is the ideal/good state from which one does not
want to fall.

Get it right Bob! The word better is used for comparision - not contrast. Both saved apostates and the saved faithful receive the same type of judgment differing only in a comparative degree. The saved faithful receive a better reward than the saved apostates; not a different destiny as in heaven or hell. Here again, if a different type of judgment was in mind the author had other choices of words such as: artavtos or heteros (Gal 1:6) or nearly 100 other words.

While you are a master of twist, redefine, and pervert,
Better is not different! Both are saved!

Lloyd