Greek Tenses and OSAS

[BobRyan]

Ed said --
I'll say it again:

OSAS means the same thing that this means:

Joh 3:16 (KJV1611 Edition):
For God so loued ye world, that he gaue his only begotten Sonne: that whosoeuer beleeueth in him, should not perish, but haue euerlasting life.

Whenever you can prove this scripture false,
you will have shown OSAS false also.

That is the error of equivocation - to equivocate the error of OSAS with the text of John 3 (at text that says nothing about losing free will at salvation or the lack of the need to persevere to "ensure salvation" as Paul says to Timothy).

If you can paste OSAS on to the back of John 3 so that one must refute scripture to get at the error of OSAS - then indeed you are successful. But that is not the way it works.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

"Take pains with these things" -- why?

1Tim 4
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul shows himself doing this very thing “in order that I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ”

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

And the prize is explicitly stated by Paul “ gain Christ” and “attain to the resurrection from the dead” – not that I have already obtained it.

How can anyone read these clear texts and water them down to “that is just diligent effort for effort’s sake not to actually attain or gain or retain or hold on to anything”??

 

[Janosik]

Ed,

so we are slaves? Where does this come from? You appear to be confused.
OSAS is false for sure if you have to deny a free will!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is some interesting reading while
I write some scriptures.
We are Slaves of Christ if we
are Once Saved (OS):

http://www.bethelministries.com/slaves_of_christ.htm

Today "slave of Christ" gets 2,690,000 hits on Google.

 

[Ed Edwards]

BobRyan: //That is the error of equivocation - to equivocate the error of OSAS
with the text of John 3 (at text that says nothing about losing
free will at salvation or the lack of the need to persevere
to "ensure salvation" as Paul says to Timothy).//

If you can discuss John 3 especially John 3:16 AND NOT MENTION OSAS,
now would be a real good time to do it.

Your reasoning is circular:
OSAS is false
Ed ties OSAS to John 3:16, therefore OSAS is false.
Of course, if you assume something true, you aught
to be able to prove it true

Talk John 3:16 and don't talk OSAS, until you believe
that once Jesus saves a person, Jesus keeps them saved.


Janosik: //Ed,
so we are slaves? Where does this come from? You appear to be confused.
OSAS is false for sure if you have to deny a free will!//

Romans 1:1a (HCSB = Christian Standard Bible /Holman, 2003/):
Paul, a slave of Christ Jesus, ...

BTW, 'apostile' comes from a Greek term meaning 'one who is sent (as a slave)'
'Deacon'comes from a Greek term meaning 'foot washing slave'
"Bishop' comes from a Greek term meaning 'a slave who has authority
over other slaves'.

I can't find it real quick, but it is said that among those in Christ:
the greatest will be the servant (slave) of all.

But all the leadership positions in the church same from
Greek slave words.

Philippians 1:1 (HCSB):
Paul and Timothy, slaves of Christ Jesus

Christians who think they are free men think themselves better
than Paul.

Titus 1:1a (HCSB):
Paul, a slave of God, ...

James 1:1a (HCSB):
James, a slave of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ: ...

2 Peter 1:1a (HCSB):
Simeon Peter, a slave and an apostle of Jesus Christ: ...

 

[BobRyan]

if you can discuss John 3 especially John 3:16 AND NOT MENTION OSAS,
now would be a real good time to do it.

Sure thing Ed -

16 ""For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
17 ""For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.

Through the sacrifice of Christ - Salvation is for those who believe - which is the point of the text. It can not be twisted or construed to deny Christ's warning in Matt 18 on "Forgiveness revoked" or the warning given in Matt 6 about the father NOT forgiving us if we do not forgive others.

The "Perseverance" texts of the NT are perfectly inline with this conditional salvation model.

The striving involved in perseverance –

2Peter 1:10-11
8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true
knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10 Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as
you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11 for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

This shows forgiveness of former sins in the purification of justification and sanctification. It does not show a cart blanch covering for all future sins. (We just saw this in James 5 above)

These texts also do not describe a defacto “drift into heaven”.

But rather a “pressing on” as in Phil 3 and a “buffeting” as in 1Cor 9.

1Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win.
25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air;
27 but I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified

The OSAS doctrine guts the very core of the “motivation” we see in 1Cor 9 as Paul EXPLICITLY says “LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I MYSELF should be disqualified”. OSAS goes after that point – directly, explicitly and without remorse.


"Take pains with these things" -- why?

1Tim 4
14 Do not neglect the spiritual gift within you, which was bestowed on you through prophetic utterance with the laying on of hands by the presbytery.
15 Take pains with these things; be absorbed in them, so that your progress will be evident to all.
16 Pay close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.

Paul shows himself doing this very thing “in order that I may lay hold of that for which I was laid hold of by Christ”

Phil 3
7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ.
8 More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ,
9 and may be found in Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith,
10 that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death;
11 in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,
14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

And the prize is explicitly stated by Paul “ gain Christ” and “attain to the resurrection from the dead” – not that I have already obtained it.

How can anyone read these clear texts and water them down to “that is just diligent effort for effort’s sake not to actually attain or gain or retain or hold on to anything”??


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

From Ed's link
And an obedient slave only does the will of his master. The apostle Paul implores us to "present your bodies a living sacrifice." But many Christians today would rather have their "liberty" to do whatever is not explicitly prohibited by Scripture, doing that which is right in their own eyes.

Notice that the SLAVE in this case has to continually CHOOSE to remain obedient. This is the same point Paul makes in Romans 6 EVEN arguing that you are "the SLAVE of the one you OBEY" and pointing out that IF we choose to OBEY sin we become ITS SLAVE!!

This is the very thing you sought to negate in your reference above. Yet Paul argues it TO THE SAINTS -- TO the Christian church as a motivator for them to CHOOSE to remain obedient to Christ!

This is such a huge red flag showing you exactly where your model is broken Ed - how can it be missed??

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Ed Edwards]

This topic is continued at:

#2 Greek Tenses and OSAS