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Greek
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following-Him
Active Member
rbell said:
What you say is so true. English is poorly taught here in the UK. For my first degree I had a choice between Hebrew or Greek in year 2. I chose Greek because my main interest is in the New Testament. The lecturer I had was German and couldnt't believe we had such a poor knowledge of English grammar. The course only lasted for a semester (12 weeks). Now anything else I have to sort out for myself as Greek and Hebrew are no longer part of the syllabus.
If anyone has the opportunity to learn either or both biblical Hebrew or Greek then take that opportunity. IMHO it is time well spent.
Blessings
followinghim
Scrawled in a Hebrew textbook:
Sin will keep you from this book
Or this book will cause you to sin
As to the original question: many pastors neglect their languages, even as they neglect other duties. But no one will ever look at the English with the same naivete once he has seen that there is another world below the surface.
Sin will keep you from this book
Or this book will cause you to sin
As to the original question: many pastors neglect their languages, even as they neglect other duties. But no one will ever look at the English with the same naivete once he has seen that there is another world below the surface.
GordonSlocum
New Member
Hope of Glory said:
Absolutely :thumbsup:
Quote:
Tom Vols:
Keep up your study of Greek and Hebrew. Be able to readily and easily use the language tools without totally relying on secondary helps. Keep your knowledge of these languages in their perspective. Remember that the single mom with two jobs and three kids couldn't care less about the aorist tense.
---------------------------------------------
Now here is a pastor who truly understands what it is to pastor a church, and a man after my own heart. Good on you, Brother Tom.
Be all you can be in ministry, but don't forget to be available to the common man, woman and child who shares the pew every week.
In the early days, we learned Greek and Hebrew in seminary, 4 years of it, but never quoted it from the pulpit. We used it in our studies, and that is where it stayed. One does not need to advert his education, but simply use it each time we speak.
Cheers,
Jim
Tom Vols:
Keep up your study of Greek and Hebrew. Be able to readily and easily use the language tools without totally relying on secondary helps. Keep your knowledge of these languages in their perspective. Remember that the single mom with two jobs and three kids couldn't care less about the aorist tense.
---------------------------------------------
Now here is a pastor who truly understands what it is to pastor a church, and a man after my own heart. Good on you, Brother Tom.
Be all you can be in ministry, but don't forget to be available to the common man, woman and child who shares the pew every week.
In the early days, we learned Greek and Hebrew in seminary, 4 years of it, but never quoted it from the pulpit. We used it in our studies, and that is where it stayed. One does not need to advert his education, but simply use it each time we speak.
Cheers,
Jim
Charles Meadows
New Member
The languages can be tough. I think however sometimes we get bogged down in the idea of language knowledge.
A good example is "word studies". Greek and Hebrew (while dead in their biblical forms) were once living languages that were used like we use our language today. Words have many many shades of meaning - meaning that is determined more by context than by text. If I say that I love pizza and then say later that I genuinely like my wife - what would the person studying English in a word study think? Would he expound that since the word love is much more strong that I actually prefer pizza to my wife?
Learing a second language is difficult - if one sets out to MASTER it. This takes more than several semsters in seminary. What's more - many of the standard works used in seminaries are fairly out of date in terms of contemporary linguistics.
My point is that a basic knowledge of the languages is a good thing and a good goal. But one must be wary of the complexities of linguistics. One is better using no Greek than misapplying Greek! Mastery is NOT necessary and is NOT a practical goal for a preacher.
A good example is "word studies". Greek and Hebrew (while dead in their biblical forms) were once living languages that were used like we use our language today. Words have many many shades of meaning - meaning that is determined more by context than by text. If I say that I love pizza and then say later that I genuinely like my wife - what would the person studying English in a word study think? Would he expound that since the word love is much more strong that I actually prefer pizza to my wife?
Learing a second language is difficult - if one sets out to MASTER it. This takes more than several semsters in seminary. What's more - many of the standard works used in seminaries are fairly out of date in terms of contemporary linguistics.
My point is that a basic knowledge of the languages is a good thing and a good goal. But one must be wary of the complexities of linguistics. One is better using no Greek than misapplying Greek! Mastery is NOT necessary and is NOT a practical goal for a preacher.
Charles Reply!!
Charles,
You have absolutely "rung the bell!" May I congratulate you.
It seems that the old method of "doing word studies" is all well and good as far as it goes or it takes the novice.
You have hit on a theme that Prof. Barr, the dreaded liberal of Vanderbilt Divinity School, let us know many years ago. And many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists pooped pooped what he had to say. We were all running to the Classical Greek and checking all of the older German lexicons for the meaning of let's say "love." in the original. This was done completely divorced from the context of where the word "love" was found.
Instead of letting the word "love" be defined by the Johannine or Pauline corpus internally itself. Let's find out what John meant by love, or what Paul meant by "love." That would make a much better interpretation of the "inerrant" and "infallible" Word would it not. Why us "Bible thumpers" want to keep going to the secualar sources for validation is rather strange to me???
This paradigm fits the analogy that you brought forth so well and I think is right on the money.
Well said.:thumbsup:
sdg!
rd
Charles,
You have absolutely "rung the bell!" May I congratulate you.
It seems that the old method of "doing word studies" is all well and good as far as it goes or it takes the novice.
You have hit on a theme that Prof. Barr, the dreaded liberal of Vanderbilt Divinity School, let us know many years ago. And many Evangelicals and Fundamentalists pooped pooped what he had to say. We were all running to the Classical Greek and checking all of the older German lexicons for the meaning of let's say "love." in the original. This was done completely divorced from the context of where the word "love" was found.
Instead of letting the word "love" be defined by the Johannine or Pauline corpus internally itself. Let's find out what John meant by love, or what Paul meant by "love." That would make a much better interpretation of the "inerrant" and "infallible" Word would it not. Why us "Bible thumpers" want to keep going to the secualar sources for validation is rather strange to me???
This paradigm fits the analogy that you brought forth so well and I think is right on the money.
Well said.:thumbsup:
sdg!
rd
I'll second what Rhet said. Well said, Charles! I agree with everything you wrote.
So, what good do the original languages do someone without the time or wherewithal to master them? Much every way.
(1) So much of English comes from Greek that its study helps us in our native language.
(2) If you ever minister cross-culturally (missionary, Spanish ministry, etc.), all the language study you've done up to then will help your language study and communication skills.
(3) Some knowledge of the originals is necessary to understand any advanced theology tome or commentary.
(4) Hopefully the student is inoculated against the more virulent forms of one-Bible-ism by a knowledge of the originals and some 2nd year translation work.
I'm sure there are other reasons, but it's late, I have to pastor tomorrow, and I'm headed to bed. :sleep:
God bless.
John :sleeping_2:
So, what good do the original languages do someone without the time or wherewithal to master them? Much every way.
(1) So much of English comes from Greek that its study helps us in our native language.
(2) If you ever minister cross-culturally (missionary, Spanish ministry, etc.), all the language study you've done up to then will help your language study and communication skills.
(3) Some knowledge of the originals is necessary to understand any advanced theology tome or commentary.
(4) Hopefully the student is inoculated against the more virulent forms of one-Bible-ism by a knowledge of the originals and some 2nd year translation work.
I'm sure there are other reasons, but it's late, I have to pastor tomorrow, and I'm headed to bed. :sleep:
God bless.
John :sleeping_2:
paidagogos
Active Member
Observations
Although I am weighing in late on this discussion, I tend to agree generally with what seems to be the consensus on this thread. I will not try to repeat what others have already expressed better than I can do. However, I would like to offer a couple of additional ideas for consideration and comment.
A seminary’s philosophy and mission is pretty much defined by its attitude toward Biblical languages. If the goal is to turn out expositors of the Word, then the curriculum is especially strong in Biblical languages. Greek and Hebrew are tools for digging and exegeting Scripture. On the other hand, if the goal is to produce individuals who build and manage organizations, then emphasis is upon methods courses rather than exegetical tools. The curriculum reflects philosophy and purpose. My personal prejudice is heavily biased toward the strong emphasis on teaching the tools which the preacher can effectively use in a variety of ministry applications. Training in methods is narrow, limited in application to specific circumstances and quickly outdated. It is the difference between the knowledge and skills of the computer user and the systems administrator.
Whereas Greek and Hebrew are very important tools for the preacher, these are not magic wands to produce profound and mystical insights. Too often, the preacher proficient in languages tends to kill his sermons by making them academic exercises in language applications. The congregation quickly tires of hearing the phrases “in the Greek” or “in the Hebrew.” The Greek and the Hebrew should be employed in the preparation, not the delivery of the sermon. Congregants do not need a steady diet of Greek and Hebrew. (IMHO, this is simply intellectual preening to demonstrate one’s own knowledge and academic prowess.) Furthermore, some exposition becomes so pendant and boring that the hearers benefit little. Then, there is the tendency to extract information that was never intended in the original text. Every Greek or Hebrew word is not saturated in hidden theological content. Too often, would-be expositors give content or meaning that was never intended. Most words mean what they mean in normal usage and nothing more.
In sum, Greek and Hebrew are powerful tools for the preacher to expand his own knowledge and understanding of Scripture but it is another talent (i.e. communication skills) to communicate the Scriptural teaching to his hearers. Tools must be correctly used for their proper purpose. How many of us have broken a good screwdriver by using it as a chisel or crowbar?
Although I am weighing in late on this discussion, I tend to agree generally with what seems to be the consensus on this thread. I will not try to repeat what others have already expressed better than I can do. However, I would like to offer a couple of additional ideas for consideration and comment.
A seminary’s philosophy and mission is pretty much defined by its attitude toward Biblical languages. If the goal is to turn out expositors of the Word, then the curriculum is especially strong in Biblical languages. Greek and Hebrew are tools for digging and exegeting Scripture. On the other hand, if the goal is to produce individuals who build and manage organizations, then emphasis is upon methods courses rather than exegetical tools. The curriculum reflects philosophy and purpose. My personal prejudice is heavily biased toward the strong emphasis on teaching the tools which the preacher can effectively use in a variety of ministry applications. Training in methods is narrow, limited in application to specific circumstances and quickly outdated. It is the difference between the knowledge and skills of the computer user and the systems administrator.
Whereas Greek and Hebrew are very important tools for the preacher, these are not magic wands to produce profound and mystical insights. Too often, the preacher proficient in languages tends to kill his sermons by making them academic exercises in language applications. The congregation quickly tires of hearing the phrases “in the Greek” or “in the Hebrew.” The Greek and the Hebrew should be employed in the preparation, not the delivery of the sermon. Congregants do not need a steady diet of Greek and Hebrew. (IMHO, this is simply intellectual preening to demonstrate one’s own knowledge and academic prowess.) Furthermore, some exposition becomes so pendant and boring that the hearers benefit little. Then, there is the tendency to extract information that was never intended in the original text. Every Greek or Hebrew word is not saturated in hidden theological content. Too often, would-be expositors give content or meaning that was never intended. Most words mean what they mean in normal usage and nothing more.
In sum, Greek and Hebrew are powerful tools for the preacher to expand his own knowledge and understanding of Scripture but it is another talent (i.e. communication skills) to communicate the Scriptural teaching to his hearers. Tools must be correctly used for their proper purpose. How many of us have broken a good screwdriver by using it as a chisel or crowbar?
paidagogos
Active Member
Wm. Mounce
Wm. Mounce, who in my opinion is one of the best Greek teachers, says:
Wm. Mounce, who in my opinion is one of the best Greek teachers, says:
"Very few people can 'pick up' a language. For most of us it takes time, lots of it. Plan for that; remind yourself what you are trying to do, and spend the necessary time. But along with the amount of time is the matter of consistency. You cannot cram for tests; Greek will not stick, and in the long run you will forget it. Spend time every day; getting to know the language of the New Testament deserves at least that. Remember, 'Those who cram, perish.'"