Greetings! I Come In Peace

[irmadlad]

Greetings! I come in peace as an unbeliever/seeker. I have many philosophical and theological questions about God. I don't want to have an argument, however, to fully understand these things I have pondered for a lifetime, one must fully examine every facet of Judaeo-Christian beliefs and in fact one must even question God in every facet. Debate is fine with me, however, I do not seek to argue with malice. I am not going to try to change your mind, quite the opposite. I shouldn't be able to if your convictions are true. I'm not going to ask gotcha questions to try to trip people up and have them contradict themselves to show what a hypocrite they are, or how silly their beliefs are. I respect a person who strives to live a morally upright life. What I seek is what I call the truth trifecta: The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Even tho I am an unbeliever, I have studied many religions: Christianity, Mormonism, Taoism, Jainism, Buddhism. I am familiar with SDA/JW, Hindu, somewhat familiar with Judaism, and a few handful of others. Four years ago I finished reading the Quran. I do not mention this in an attempt to show my vast religious intellect, but rather to give an idea of how far I have sought answers to my questions. I am most familiar with the Judaeo-Christian beliefs and that is where I would like to center this discussion.

I realize, being on the internet, this forum must surely get a lot of cranks who just want to agitate and cause disruption. This is not my intent. This is a long discussion and I need someone, perhaps a pastor who is patient. I have many, many troubling questions. I beg of your patience.

I have written well over 500 emails to churches and synagogues in my area begging to discuss these things which weigh heavy on my mind. I have contacted many Christian forums, only to be met with resistance. It seems Christians, who say they know the way, who were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel, immediately take questioning to be a personal affront. This is not my intent at all. In fact, God commanded us to question:

1 John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Isaiah 1:18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

Questioning is Biblical.

My questions center around these topics:

• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway​
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory​
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed​
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions​
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence​
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth
  ​

This is a long discussion, and one you'll have to be dedicated to. It's not for the easily distracted or casual commenter. Again, I am not here to cause trouble. If this is not the correct place for this kind of discussion, kindly tell me, and I'll be on my way to seek answers elsewhere. If you know of any forums on the internet for this type of discussion, then I would appreciate pointing me in that direction.

Thank You

 

[xlsdraw]

IMO, you have come to the wrong place. You need to go directly to God.

God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. If your thoughts and intents are to humble yourself, to seek redemption, and to know God, God can be found.

Revelation 3:20-22
20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

 

[irmadlad]

IMO, you have come to the wrong place. You need to go directly to God.

God knows the thoughts and intents of the heart. If your thoughts and intents are to humble yourself, to seek redemption, and to know God, God can be found.

Revelation 3:20-22
20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21) To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22) He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

I am very familiar with the KJV and some derivatives. I've probably read the Christian Bible more times than most church goers. I still have questions. There's not much in the Christian Bible that you'd surprise me with, even the begats. So, if this is not the place, I'll move on. I am quite used to this from Christians.

Thank you for your time and comment.

 

[KenH]

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

I invite you to check out this page on the Reign of Grace website of Eager Avenue Grace Church in Albany, Georgia. Many good articles on that page that may be of assistance to you:

Bible Studies & Articles

Reign of Grace video sermons, audio sermons, bible studies, and books.

www.rofgrace.com

Also, you may find useful a couple of pages on the website of Grace Baptist Church of Ruston, Louisiana, where I am a member:

Articles of Faith

Free Online Bible Study - Grace Baptist of Ruston

free online bible study

www.gracebaptistofruston.org

 

[Scarlett O.]

You are welcome here. I pray the answers you seek are revealed to you.

 

[irmadlad]

You are welcome here. I pray the answers you seek are revealed to you.

Thank you for your hospitality. Which sub-forum would be a good place to ask these sort of questions?

Thank you for your time and patience.

 

[Ascetic X]

Questioning is Biblical.

My questions center around these topics:

• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway​
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory​
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed​
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions​
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence​
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth​

This is a long discussion, and one you'll have to be dedicated to. It's not for the easily distracted or casual commenter. Again, I am not here to cause trouble. If this is not the correct place for this kind of discussion, kindly tell me, and I'll be on my way to seek answers elsewhere. If you know of any forums on the internet for this type of discussion, then I would appreciate pointing me in that direction.

Your questions concern issues that theologians and philosophers have debated for thousands of years.

Lengthy discussions typically just deepen the confusion.

The way you have posed the issues is slanted toward an accusatory stance. In fact, they are not even questions, but assertions.

I get the impression that your mind is already made up and you are challenging Christians to try to debunk your convictions.

I agree with the member who suggested you go directly to God to get answers.

James 1:5

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

 

[irmadlad]

I'll have to say, you Christians are consistent. At any rate, I will seek answers elsewhere Thank you all for your time.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Thank you for your hospitality. Which sub-forum would be a good place to ask these sort of questions?

Thank you for your time and patience.

If you will stay, just go to general baptist discussions. We are a small forum. You will get some answers if you will break them down into sections.

 

[Mike B]

I'll have to say, you Christians are consistent. At any rate, I will seek answers elsewhere Thank you all for your time.

Irmadlad, I lack the formal theological education of many here, however in the spirit of Proverbs 27:17, I'd be
pleased to have a go at some of your questions.

May I also ask questions of you?

I looked at your user name, and had to take a guess...could it be Irish mad lad?

You say you have read the KJV many times..I'd be interested to know your opinion (in general)
of the New Testament.

Rather than clog up the Introductions Forum, I'd be happy to continue the discussion in the
other forum. Perhaps you could repost your original comment there.

 

[irmadlad]

RrE: I lack the formal theological education of many here

I'm no theologian by a long shot. I'm just a very old man who reads prolifically. I don't read novels or fiction, but rather technology, , science, religious texts, politics, history. Those type of thing. I turned the TV off decades ago. Since I was a wee lad, I've had this insatiable lust to know everything I could possibly know.

RE: May I also ask questions of you?

Absolutely you may. That's fair.

RE: I looked at your user name, and had to take a guess...could it be Irish mad lad?

By bloodline, I am Irish, Scottish, American Indian - specifically the Blackfoot tribe. However, there was this cartoon quite a while back that featured a character named IR Baboon, and that's how he introduced himself. Most of the time I hear 'mad lad' by itself if from my UK brothers and sisters. So, I just smushed the two together. I am known by many names of the internet, as I've been online since 1982, a bit before most people's first internet experience, before that there were BBS boards. Yes, I'm a very old geek.

RE: You say you have read the KJV many times..I'd be interested to know your opinion (in general)
of the New Testament.

Well, if I were in Judaism, the New Testament is viewed much like Christians view the Apocrypha; religious manuscripts, yes, but not pertinent. Yes I have read it untold times. My opinion? Well, much like most religious script, it shares a lot of common threads with a lot of belief systems outside Christianity. Most modern historians recognize Jesus of Nazareth, It's interesting reading. Lots of principles that just make common sense. Similar to the Old Testament. Love your brother man. Everyone should live by that creed. As far as it being something I hold as a firm conviction, not at this point.

I'm not a full blown, militant atheist. I'm honest enough to say 'I don't know because none of this makes sense'. In fact, the notes I keep for Judaeo Christian beliefs is called 'Judaeo Christian And Associated KJV - Make It Make Sense. I fully admit that something happened, it's quite obvious. Science calls it the 'Big Bang', Christians call it God and creation. For all I know the Big Bang could have been God saying 'Let there be light' I don't know.

RE: Rather than clog up the Introductions Forum, I'd be happy to continue the discussion in the
other forum. Perhaps you could repost your original comment there.

Well, thank you so kindly. Which sub forum would suggest?

Thank you for your time, consideration, and hospitality.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Greetings! I come in peace as an unbeliever/seeker. I have many philosophical and theological questions about God. I don't want to have an argument, however, to fully understand these things I have pondered for a lifetime, one must fully examine every facet of Judaeo-Christian beliefs and in fact one must even question God in every facet. Debate is fine with me, however, I do not seek to argue with malice. I am not going to try to change your mind, quite the opposite. I shouldn't be able to if your convictions are true. I'm not going to ask gotcha questions to try to trip people up and have them contradict themselves to show what a hypocrite they are, or how silly their beliefs are. I respect a person who strives to live a morally upright life. What I seek is what I call the truth trifecta: The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Even tho I am an unbeliever, I have studied many religions: Christianity, Mormonism, Taoism, Jainism, Buddhism. I am familiar with SDA/JW, Hindu, somewhat familiar with Judaism, and a few handful of others. Four years ago I finished reading the Quran. I do not mention this in an attempt to show my vast religious intellect, but rather to give an idea of how far I have sought answers to my questions. I am most familiar with the Judaeo-Christian beliefs and that is where I would like to center this discussion.

I realize, being on the internet, this forum must surely get a lot of cranks who just want to agitate and cause disruption. This is not my intent. This is a long discussion and I need someone, perhaps a pastor who is patient. I have many, many troubling questions. I beg of your patience.

I have written well over 500 emails to churches and synagogues in my area begging to discuss these things which weigh heavy on my mind. I have contacted many Christian forums, only to be met with resistance. It seems Christians, who say they know the way, who were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel, immediately take questioning to be a personal affront. This is not my intent at all. In fact, God commanded us to question:

1 John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Isaiah 1:18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

Questioning is Biblical.

My questions center around these topics:

• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway​
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory​
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed​
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions​
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence​
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth​

This is a long discussion, and one you'll have to be dedicated to. It's not for the easily distracted or casual commenter. Again, I am not here to cause trouble. If this is not the correct place for this kind of discussion, kindly tell me, and I'll be on my way to seek answers elsewhere. If you know of any forums on the internet for this type of discussion, then I would appreciate pointing me in that direction.

Thank You

And He also told this parable to some people who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and viewed others with contempt: “Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.’ But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted.”
And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”[Luke 18:9-17 NASB 1995]

I am not saying you are a Pharisee, so please don’t take it that way. I posted that to show that if you truly turn to Christ in repentance and faith, you will be saved. The questions you’ve asked are not pertinent to salvation, but things believers have debated for centuries. First seek Him, then ask these.

 

[irmadlad]

RE: I posted that to show that if you truly turn to Christ in repentance and faith, you will be saved.

Based on something I don't understand? I would think it prudent to understand that which you are betting an eternal soul on.

RE: The questions you’ve asked are not pertinent to salvation, but things believers have debated for centuries.

Oh but they are. Here's the thing I keep coming back to: If Christianity is true, it's true whether it's comfortable or not. But if it's false, it's false whether we want it to be true or not. The most dangerous thing we can do with a truth claim that makes this much cosmic weight hang on our shoulders is to pretend we've answered the hard questions when we haven't.

RE: First seek Him, then ask these.

Thank you for your admonishment and your comment.

 

[SovereignGrace]

RE: I posted that to show that if you truly turn to Christ in repentance and faith, you will be saved.

Based on something I don't understand? I would think it prudent to understand that which you are betting an eternal soul on.

RE: The questions you’ve asked are not pertinent to salvation, but things believers have debated for centuries.

Oh but they are. Here's the thing I keep coming back to: If Christianity is true, it's true whether it's comfortable or not. But if it's false, it's false whether we want it to be true or not. The most dangerous thing we can do with a truth claim that makes this much cosmic weight hang on our shoulders is to pretend we've answered the hard questions when we haven't.

RE: First seek Him, then ask these.

Thank you for your admonishment and your comment.

All you need to know is you’re lost without him. Without Him, you have no hope of ever living again. All the tax collector did was look to Him and say, ‘God, be merciful to me, the sinner!’ Do the same.

 

[Silverhair]

Greetings! I come in peace as an unbeliever/seeker. I have many philosophical and theological questions about God. I don't want to have an argument, however, to fully understand these things I have pondered for a lifetime, one must fully examine every facet of Judaeo-Christian beliefs and in fact one must even question God in every facet. Debate is fine with me, however, I do not seek to argue with malice. I am not going to try to change your mind, quite the opposite. I shouldn't be able to if your convictions are true. I'm not going to ask gotcha questions to try to trip people up and have them contradict themselves to show what a hypocrite they are, or how silly their beliefs are. I respect a person who strives to live a morally upright life. What I seek is what I call the truth trifecta: The truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Even tho I am an unbeliever, I have studied many religions: Christianity, Mormonism, Taoism, Jainism, Buddhism. I am familiar with SDA/JW, Hindu, somewhat familiar with Judaism, and a few handful of others. Four years ago I finished reading the Quran. I do not mention this in an attempt to show my vast religious intellect, but rather to give an idea of how far I have sought answers to my questions. I am most familiar with the Judaeo-Christian beliefs and that is where I would like to center this discussion.

I realize, being on the internet, this forum must surely get a lot of cranks who just want to agitate and cause disruption. This is not my intent. This is a long discussion and I need someone, perhaps a pastor who is patient. I have many, many troubling questions. I beg of your patience.

I have written well over 500 emails to churches and synagogues in my area begging to discuss these things which weigh heavy on my mind. I have contacted many Christian forums, only to be met with resistance. It seems Christians, who say they know the way, who were commanded to go into all the world and preach the gospel, immediately take questioning to be a personal affront. This is not my intent at all. In fact, God commanded us to question:

1 John 4:1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

Isaiah 1:18: Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD.

Questioning is Biblical.

My questions center around these topics:

• Foreknowledge: God knew everything that would happen and created it anyway​
• Determination: Infallible foreknowledge means the future is fixed; free will is illusory​
• Design: Humans are punished for functioning as designed​
• Proportionality: Eternal punishment for finite, biologically driven infractions​
• Epistemology: Faith is non-distinguishing and unverifiable; This is crucial. Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence​
• Geography: Religious belief is determined by birthplace, not truth​

This is a long discussion, and one you'll have to be dedicated to. It's not for the easily distracted or casual commenter. Again, I am not here to cause trouble. If this is not the correct place for this kind of discussion, kindly tell me, and I'll be on my way to seek answers elsewhere. If you know of any forums on the internet for this type of discussion, then I would appreciate pointing me in that direction.

Thank You

I note that you have investigated a number of religious views, but seem to have rejected them all.

My question why? What did you find lacking in them? Of course my main interest is in why you seem to have rejected Christianity.

Here are my Cole's notes responses to your central topics:

Foreknowledge: God does know all that will happen as He is omniscient and also outside of time. God did not need to create this world but chose to do so out of Love.

Determinism: Foreknowledge does not negate free will. God knows what man will freely choose to do that is why we are held responsible for the choices we make. If God had determined all that man would think or do then God would be the ultimate sinner.

Design: Actually man is not punished for functioning as designed. He is punished for rejecting the only means of having his sins covered.

Proportionality: Since the reason a person is in hell is for rejecting God then the only reason they continue to be in hell is because they continue to reject God.

Epistemology: Here, to a point, I agree with you. I cannot know if a person truly believes just as they cannot know if I do. But then you add "Belief is conviction. Knowledge requires evidence" The question is what and how much evidence do you require?

Geography: Well this one is easily overcome as we see that vast numbers of people all over the world are coming to faith in Christ Jesus, even in so called closed countries.

The six questions that you have listed are questions that have been discussed and in some cases fought over for years.

I do not think you will find anyone on this board that has just made a blind leap into faith. We have all made reasonable conclusions based on various pieces of information.

 

[Ben1445]

RE: I posted that to show that if you truly turn to Christ in repentance and faith, you will be saved.

Based on something I don't understand? I would think it prudent to understand that which you are betting an eternal soul on.

RE: The questions you’ve asked are not pertinent to salvation, but things believers have debated for centuries.

Oh but they are. Here's the thing I keep coming back to: If Christianity is true, it's true whether it's comfortable or not. But if it's false, it's false whether we want it to be true or not. The most dangerous thing we can do with a truth claim that makes this much cosmic weight hang on our shoulders is to pretend we've answered the hard questions when we haven't.

RE: First seek Him, then ask these.

Thank you for your admonishment and your comment.

Pardon me if I sound like I’m nitpicking, but there is no comparison to betting with eternity. It’s a matter of trust. If I’m betting my friends will help me with my problems, they are not great friends. It is my opinion that you will need to get further than taking your best guess at where you will land and trust the One who said that He is the way the truth and the life. No bets. No chances. Just belief in the Saviour to do what none of us can do for ourselves.