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The Arminian point is stated incorrectly -- but it is the closet thing to actual Arminianism so I had to pick it. (If I got the mesh untangled correctly in the OP).

Regenerated = IN UNION with Christ, BORN AGAIN, NEW creation, a SAINT. ONE who has ACCEPTED the Gospel.

DEPRAVED - UNNABLE to choose life and light -

DRAWING OF GOD - ABLE to convict AND to ENABLE choice in the DEPRAVED soul without forcing it to FIRST be BORN AGAIN.

This is the "blind spot" for Calvinism - so one expects this fact of God's Power to DRAW to always be "missing" from how Calvinists report the Arminian POV.

The Amazing thing is that no matter how many times you see Arminians POINT this OUT - Calvinists are continually blind to its existence. "As in" blind to the fact that this is the Arminian POV that they are supposed to be opposing. They completely miss it altogether as in the case of the OP.

Who is blinding their eyes to this truth like that?

I wonder.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Frogman,

Of course there are variations in almost every denomination that exists.

The five main points of dispute can be found here.

http://www.creeds.net/dordt/index.htm

There are other sites which give much more Biblical proof texts.

God bless, KJB

 

Hi Bro Dallas;
Many, myself included disagree with you as to what Christ was actually saying in Jn. 3:16 The reason I disagree is because what Nicodemus would never see was the "Kingdom of God" unless he was born again. It wasn't the knowledge of God. Nicodemus certainly had been in God's service already. He was sympathetic to Christ and was trying to put the pieces together.

I have no doubt that God Himself was working on my heart at conversion with conviction. Many feel this same conviction and do not respond. How could it be that one could feel the Conviction placed on them by the Holy Spirit and still reject Him?
The Jews did this so many time as recorded in scripture yet Calvinism teaches that we cannot resist God.
What you call regeneration is impossible without faith first. Yet Calvinism teaches that we must be regeneration before we can even have faith.
What you say about Jn. 3 doesn't seem to be a good understanding of what is discussed.
Paul said we have access to grace because of our faith.
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

To me you seem to be saying that we are converted from a heart of stone first but Paul said;
Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Conversion cannot come with out conviction and repentance. It seems Calvinism has place conversion ahead of everything. Our sins cannot be blotted out with out repentance. We cannot be converted with out repentance. All right here in this last passage.
The sacrafice of Christ was so that we could be forgiven if we repent. Whoever repents receives forgiveness.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

I am a Calvinist, though do not wear it on my sleeve. I do wonder if any of you Calvinists ever define yourselves as Reformed instead of Calvinist. Though I admire Calvin's work, I am not in agreement with him on Church Polity and baptism among other things. I would label myself Reformed as opposed to the brother who labeled himself predestinarian.

 

What you are missing in clinging to that notion -- is the true salient point of DIFFERENCE between 4-5 point Calvinism and the ARminian POV.

The difference is NOT in depravity it is in the DRAWING OF GOD!!

EVEN CALVINISTS admit that the DRAWING of God enables the choice that TD disables!

The question is WHO are drawn and HOW MUCH dragging and forcing is involved in that DRAWING.

That is where the entire discussion centers.

The tactic of circling back to the issue of depravity simply causes us to go back over that same old ground again and point out that the difference is NOT in the Romans 3 view of depravity or the sinful nature.

God supernaturally places DISCORD between the kingdom of Satan and humanity in Gen 3 "I WILL PUT enminity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent".

God SUPERNATURALLY DRAWS ALL John 12:32

God SUPERNATURALLY convicts "the WORLD of sin and righteousness and judgment" John 16

God supernaturally STANDS the door and knocks Rev 3 so that lost humanity, ALONE and on the INSIDE apart from UNION with Christ may hear and OPEN the door and THEN the fellowship and UNION with Christ takes place. Rev 3.

If you avoid these key foundational arguments and simply circle back to the TD question - it simply starts the discussion "over again". Only to point out the same "real" areas of difference in the DRAWING.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Brother Dale, I do not call myself Reformed because from the studies I have done, it appears that on of the basic beliefs of the Reformed movement is that of infant baptism, using the same locic applied by the Jews when they circumcised their infant sons. That is the right to this ritual is genetic.

I do not hold to infant baptism, instead holding to believers baptism. and the need for a person to be able to state his reason for desiring baptism.

For these reasons, I do not call myself Reformed.

 

Hello SeekingTruth, I believe you are referring to the Reformed Church in the US (RCUS) denomination. I stand with you there, but there are many Reformed Baptists out there www.reformedbaptists.org (may be wrong). I believe you can find many Baptists would prefer being called Reformed Baptists than Calvinistic Baptist because CB usually is associated with Primitive Baptists. Many others call themselves Sovereign Grace Baptists (Bro. Dallas for one, I believe). If such would allow, I would like to be called a Baptist and let it stand. In the end, no label can replace what I have in Christ.

 

In your view the one "on the inside" while Christ is on the "outside knocking" will suddenly "discover" that the door is open and that he is already in "UNION" with Christ - Christ is already seated at the table and they are dining together when he "wakes up". He will then rejoice in that wonderful new day that was so graciously selected for him.

By contrast Christ said "I STAND at the door and KNOCK" (that would be "stand" and it would be "At the door" on the outside - not inside).

"IF anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door - I WILL then COME IN and dine with him"

The union takes place when Christ cOMES IN - =

UNION is never depicted in scripture as Christ on the OUTSIDE and the sinner alone on the INSIDE.

In Christ,

Bob

 

Hi Bro Dallas;

I would still have to disagree with your defintion of the word "Conversion". Conversion is a change of heart. Being reunited with Christ after back sliding is certainly possible but this is not conversion. Reunited is being renewed.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Perhaps a careful reading of Rev 3 will address that problem then.

#1. You seem to "admit" that Christ MUST be in the INSIDE with the Christian (and so be IN UNION with him) or else all is lost. In fact you argue that any state where Christ is limited to the outside is failure.

#2. And yet in your following argument you "seem to want to say" that Christ on the OUTSIDE is the case for a born again CHRISTIAN!!

If Christ has been "cast out of the home/heart of a Christian" and seeks "re-entry" you have an even BIGGER problem than you were trying to avoid to start with.

For NOW you are trying to define "salvation" as the state where the Christian is NOT in UNION with Christ - is APART from Christ, is ALONE on the inside having to "Choose" to open the door and LET CHRIST IN??!!

I am sorry but there is no such scripture teaching that as the "Saved state".

Rather the state of "Being saved" is always described as "Christ IN YOU the hope of Glory" Col1 and "NO longer I who live but Christ who LIVES IN ME" Gal 2:20.

The condition "APART from Christ" described in Rev 3 is always the lost condition in scripture. Even Calvinists here admit that "regeneration" is at the VERY LEAST being "in UNION with Christ"!!

In Christ,

Bob

 

Bob,

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

That verse constitutes nothing at all of a mans ability to open anything at all.

While it may be a very true saying.......it does not mean any man can hear His voice unless he has been granted ears to hear with.

You know....
for him who has ears to hear !

The world at large does not hear His voice.

All are commanded to repent, turn to Jesus Christ for forgiveness of their sins.

Does that mean people are capable of doing so of their own ability? No it does not.

The nature of man is a serious and helpless condition. It is most certainly not a condition of freedom, but rather of bondage and hostility.

“While we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly………God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we are now justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life” (Romans 5:6, 8-10).

All people were already enemies. He died for us while we were sinners and helpless. Helpless is not a condition with free-will.

If Christ died for us.....we are saved and on our way to glory! We are justified already.

And he who is justified......will he also be condemned?

What did we deserve? The passage is quite clear; we were deserving of God's wrath. The wrath of God was meant to be upon us. God took his own stroke, upon himself, for us. It is finished.

Regards, KJB

 

I should have added some other verses to be a little more clear;

"Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word.

"He who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God."

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

"What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."

God bless you all! KJB

 

Hi Bro Dallas;

I would never say that God cannot do what ever He wants. He can, but just because He can doesn't mean that He does.
I have a lot of respect for you brother I'm sure you love the Lord and it's evident in the way you treat everyone you disscuss these issues with. Even still this doesn't make you 100% right. I know I'm not, and am willing to admit that because I'm only human. No one has all the answers except God.
Rev.3:20 isn't the only verse in the Bible that shows our God to be generous towards us all. Sure He could bust through the door and make us believe if He so desired. Knowing the results from all of His actions before He does them, is what keeps Him from doing a lot of things. There is a huge difference between forcing belief and love on someone than allowing that person to choose. Love true Love is impossible without the freedom to Love whom you wish.
God told the Jews;
Eze 33:11 Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?

In this verse the Father is actually pleading with the Jews to turn from there evil ways.
Why would God plead if His election of them insured there Salvation?
God has pleaded with the Jews to come to Him on numerous occasions in the O.T. Can you give me a reasonable explanation for His pleading.

Eze 18:31 Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
Eze 18:32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him that dieth, saith the Lord GOD: wherefore turn yourselves, and live ye.

Does a man have to be pre-elected to be saved?

Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

In Isaiah's day the only elect were the Jews, but Isaiah says they can join them selves to the Lord.
I will never believe that if a man wants to be saved that He can't, if He was not pre-elected.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike