Gun Control

[abcgrad94]

And this is a perfect example of why people with mental illnesses do not get treatment. I will never understand why seemingly intelligent people can go through life believing every square inch of the human body can get sick, be deformed, damaged, etc., except the brain. I will bow out of this discussion now, as I am sure we are about to descend into absurdity.

You hit the nail on the head. And yes, every time the subject comes up on here, it does descend to absurdity.

 

[TCassidy]

It's fairly safe to say had the shooter been armed with a couple of six shooters and a real hunting rifle the adults probably could have stopped this at far fewer deaths.

It's fairly safe to say that had the teachers, administrators, counselors, janitors, security personnel been armed the death toll would have been only a small fraction of what it is.

There really is no need for the average person to be armed with assault weapons.

What is an "assault weapon?" "Assault" is a verb, not an adjective. It is something you DO not something you own. Just about anything can be used to commit assault. A baseball bat, a kitchen knife, a rolled up newspaper.

Now, if by "assault weapon" you meant "military type weapon" then there is a HUGE reason to own them, especially in times such as these. Please read this article http://www.lectlaw.com/files/gun01.htm which deals with the intent of the framers of the Constitution when they wrote the second amendment. Note in the article the historic statements made by George Mason, Noah Webster, Tench Coxe and others regarding the purpose of the second amendment in no uncertain terms.

I'm a hunter and do not favor general gun control. BUT--I do favor restricted clips and banning assault weapons......to the point of confiscation from current legal owners with reimbursement.

Well, you may be a hunter but I don't think you have a very good understanding of firearms. Firstly a "clip" is not used in any military style weapons nor any weapons of any sort in common usage. The word you are looking for is "magazine." Modern rifles and pistols are magazine fed.

Secondly, the term "assault weapons" has already been addressed.

But I think what really needs to be done is honesty regarding mental health. Not every person with a developmental analomy or mental illness is dangerous.

With this I can agree. We must be much more aggressive in identifying, diagnosing and treating mental illness.

However, for those as severely affected as this young man, placement years ago in a secure treatment facility would have prevented this.

We don't want to go back to snake pits, but our fear of them is preventing us from dealing in a healthy manner. Insanity exists and we need to step up on that front.

The problem is that the SCOTUS released all patients held against their will in mental institutions who could not be conclusively proven to be a danger to themselves or others. And when that happened such institutions passed pretty much out of existence. Fully 1/3 of prisoners incarcerated in this country suffer from some sort of mental illness and are largely left untreated, paroled, and re-offend.

 

[Don]

As Mr. Cassidy just pointed out: Those that are for banning "assault weapons," please be specific and identify those weapons.

Because if you don't, anything can be defined--or re-defined--as an "assault weapon."

So don't just tell us you support banning assault weapons, or military-type weapons; tell us exactly what you're identifying as assault or military-type weapons.

Because I'll bet ya a dollar, most of you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[glazer1972]

I do not agree. Banning these type of guns may not eliminate all acts of violence but it would certainly reduce them.

No it wouldn't. Btw I've been around guns since I was a baby and I've never had the faintest desire to go shoot up some place.
The depravity of man alone is to blame here.

 

[Oldtimer]

"What America can learn from Switzerland is that the best way to reduce gun misuse is to promote responsible gun ownership."

In the right to bear arms debate, pro-gun Americans point to Switzerland, where almost every adult male is legally required to possess a gun. One of the few nations with a higher per capita rate of gun ownership than the United States, Switzerland has virtually no gun crime. Therefore, argue the pro-gunners, America doesn't need gun control.

I wish that everyone, on both sides of this debate, would read this article, in full. There are a lot of important, IMO, points in it that address many issues, from family to suicide rates and gun control.

http://www.guncite.com/swissgun-kopel.html

 

[Oldtimer]

We must be much more aggressive in identifying, diagnosing and treating mental illness.The problem is that the SCOTUS released all patients held against their will in mental institutions who could not be conclusively proven to be a danger to themselves or others. And when that happened such institutions passed pretty much out of existence. Fully 1/3 of prisoners incarcerated in this country suffer from some sort of mental illness and are largely left untreated, paroled, and re-offend.

You've nailed one of the underlying problems that's resulting in what we see happening today. Not only from national head-line grabbing events either. At the local level, families are being torn apart due to the destructive forces at play with outpatient treatment of seriously disturbed individuals.

John Doe stopped taking his medications which resulted in ........... (fill in the blank.)

Family members on waiting lists to have relatives committed while mental hospitals are being closed. Here in NC there's a controvery about what to do with the buildings and grounds of Dorothea Dix Hospital facilities.

In August 2012, Dorothea Dix Hospital moved its last patients to Central Regional Hospital in Butner, North Carolina, which critics said did not provide enough beds for the most serious cases. To help alleviate the situation, in May 2012, UNC agreed to spend $40 million on mental health services. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothea_Dix_Hospital

Closing a hospital when there aren't enough beds for the "most serious" cases. Greedy developers emerged at the announcement of the closing. Spending $40 million on services -- it didn't say hospitals.

In addition to criminal re-offenders, I've read somewhere the stats on how many of the "homeless" population should be in a treatment center for mental illness. Instead they are living in cardboard boxes fighting the demons in their heads alone. How often do we see in the news stories of government officials clearing out shanty towns and forcing them to move on to somewhere else?

If any one of these "most serious cases" makes the national news, the cry goes out to ban guns. Folks, isn't there something wrong with this picture that has nothing to do with guns?

 

[Dr. Bob]

I hunt with what the liberal press calls "assault" weapons and "semi-automatic". My rifle, my .22 for teaching at the church camp, my shotgun all are "semi-automatic" (a FAR cry from machine gun spraying that criminals use).

I cannot abide the rhetoric that blames guns for killing children. Yes, 20 children under 7 were killed Friday. But fertilizer (Tim McVeigh OKC bomb) killed 19 children under 7. HEre in Casper, a student killed two professors with a bow and arrow.

Outlaw fertilizer? Outlaw bow-and-arrow? Outlaw hunting guns? Ludicrous.

MOVED to general discussion area, since this is NOT a Baptist discussion

 

[Revmitchell]

It is fairly certain that if every teacher and staff member in the school were armed armed and trained, there would have been fewer deaths at Sandy Hook school. It is fairly certain that if a few selected administrators had quick access to assault-style weapons, the young man would have been dead before ever reaching a classroom.

It is fairly certain that if the principal had been strapped, she would not have had to lung toward the shooter to shield children. He would have already been dead.

It is fairly certain that a sign at the front door of the school which says "Our teachers, staff and administrators are armed. You have been warned" would have caused even a mentally unbalanced nut to at least think about it.

Aww now you have done it. You've gone and used commons sense.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

I cannot abide the rhetoric that blames guns for killing children. Yes, 20 children under 7 were killed Friday. But fertilizer (Tim McVeigh OKC bomb) killed 19 children under 7. HEre in Casper, a student killed two professors with a bow and arrow.

Outlaw fertilizer? Outlaw bow-and-arrow? Outlaw hunting guns? Ludicrous.

While I do think there is need for gun law reform, it is interesting to note that the deadliest school massacre was not accomplish with guns.

BATH MASSACRE

 

[Crabtownboy]

There is no constitutional right to shoot deer, dove, or clay pigeons. But there is a constitutional RESPONSIBILITY to overthrow any government that becomes too oppressive. But I guess we lost that argument in 1865.

 

[blackbird]

It is fairly certain that if every teacher and staff member in the school were armed armed and trained, there would have been fewer deaths at Sandy Hook school. It is fairly certain that if a few selected administrators had quick access to assault-style weapons, the young man would have been dead before ever reaching a classroom.

It is fairly certain that if the principal had been strapped, she would not have had to lung toward the shooter to shield children. He would have already been dead.

It is fairly certain that a sign at the front door of the school which says "Our teachers, staff and administrators are armed. You have been warned" would have caused even a mentally unbalanced nut to at least think about it.

I graduated HS in '77-------thinking back----there were some teachers back then that ------- well ---- it probably would have been unsafe to those around them had they been "Carrying heat"-----mercy!! There are teachers I know NOW that if I were the Sheriff there is no way on God's green earth I would "Deputize" them!!!

 

[Oldtimer]

Yep, Tom left out a word in his sentence.

"It is fairly certain that if every --- qualified --- teacher and staff member in the school were armed armed and trained, there would have been fewer deaths at Sandy Hook school."

However, he did include an important one that carries a similar meaning. Trained Not everyone can pass a thorough training class.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

There is no constitutional right to shoot deer, dove, or clay pigeons. But there is a constitutional RESPONSIBILITY to overthrow any government that becomes too oppressive. But I guess we lost that argument in 1865.

Where is that in the constitution?

 

[Zaac]

I do not agree. Banning these type of guns may not eliminate all acts of violence but it would certainly reduce them.

And this is what I mean when I say we've got to stop thinking like the world and stop trying to handle things from a worldly perspective. Our focus has GOT to be all about Christ and pointing folks to Him.

We don't need a reducing measure. We need a set free measure and no one but GOD can do that.

 

[Mexdeaf]

And this is what I mean when I say we've got to stop thinking like the world and stop trying to handle things from a worldly perspective. Our focus has GOT to be all about Christ and pointing folks to Him.

We don't need a reducing measure. We need a set free measure and no one but GOD can do that.

ZAAC,

I admire your conviction here, but reality is that as pilgrims in this world we also have a responsibility to love others. Protecting them from harm is part of love and if we lose that right to protect ourselves and others due to faulty legislation we cannot blame anyone other than ourselves.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Interesting...

• A 1997 high school shooting in Pearl, Miss., was halted by the school's vice principal after he retrieved the Colt .45 he kept in his truck. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pearl_High_School_shooting


• A 1998 middle school shooting ended when a man living next door heard gunfire and apprehended the shooter with his shotgun. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parker_Middle_School_dance_shooting

• A 2002 law school shooting in Grundy, Va., came to an abrupt conclusion when students carrying firearms confronted the shooter. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting


• A 2007 mall shooting in Ogden, Utah, ended when an armed off-duty police officer intervened. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolley_Square_shooting


• A 2009 workplace shooting in Houston, Texas, was halted by two coworkers who carried concealed handguns. http://www.texaschlforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=21868


• A 2012 church shooting in Aurora, Colo., was stopped by a member of the congregation carrying a gun. http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnew...-shootings-one-widely-known-the-other-ignored


• At the recent mall shooting in Portland, Ore., the gunman took his own life minutes after being confronted by a shopper carrying a concealed weapon. http://www.kgw.com/news/Clackamas-man-armed-confronts-mall-shooter-183593571.html


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/jun/18/gun-ownership-up-crime-down/

 

[Zaac]

ZAAC,

I admire your conviction here, but reality is that as pilgrims in this world we also have a responsibility to love others. Protecting them from harm is part of love and if we lose that right to protect ourselves and others due to faulty legislation we cannot blame anyone other than ourselves.

Again, I'm not saying don't protect. What I'm saying is that the world is always going to respond with everything BUT God as the solution.

The CHURCH needs to respond, and loudly so, that GOD is the answer.

But we keep allowing the one truth that will truly make a difference to get drowned out by the world's voice and ours joining in unison with them.

 

[North Carolina Tentmaker]

Sorry to resurrect the dead on this one, but I was reading old posts.

The rules for arming teachers and staff should be the same as arming any other citizen. If they have a felony conviction or history of mental health issues they are disqualified. That may be a lot of our teachers. But if they are qualified to own a firearm, and want to carry on school property, why not train and allow them to.

Schools, theaters, shopping malls - all "gun free" zones where legally armed citizens are barred and only the criminals have guns.

 

[Salty]

Originally Posted by North Carolina Tentmaker
There is no constitutional right to shoot deer, dove, or clay pigeons. But there is a constitutional RESPONSIBILITY to overthrow any government that becomes too oppressive. But I guess we lost that argument in 1865.

Where is that in the constitution?

I believe he is talking about the Declaration of Independence, which IMHO no longer has any legal authority

 

[carpro]

What do movie theaters, shopping malls, and elementary schools all have in common?

They are all “gun free” safe zones.

Until we get rid of this idea that government can ensure your safety by passing a law or putting up a sign then this problem will not go away. In all three of the recent shootings one legally armed civilian could have stopped it early.

When I see one of those signs in a store window that says “no concealed weapons allowed” I realize that by entering I am giving up my 2nd amendment right to defend myself. I also realize that the store/school/whatever else is unable to defend me and I am at risk.

Do you really want to solve this problem?

First - Make any institution that takes away my constitutional right liable for it. If I am not allowed to defend myself and I am hurt, then they are responsible.

Second – Any teacher that wants to and is willing to pass a state law enforcement course should be a designated resource officer and should carry to school. Of course they have to be able to legally own a firearm so mental patients and convicted felons would not be eligible. I wonder what percentage of our teachers that would be?

The second amendment was written with military weapons in mind. The militia clause is there specifically so that military weapons cannot be banned from private citizens. Any military weapon, from plastic explosives to M-1 Tanks should be allowed by the 2nd amendment.

There is no constitutional right to shoot deer, dove, or clay pigeons. But there is a constitutional RESPONSIBILITY to overthrow any government that becomes too oppressive. But I guess we lost that argument in 1865.

Oh well, off the soap box. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming.

I kind of like you on your soapbox. :thumbs: