Hades/Sheol, and it's absence from reformed theology.

[Dave...]

Hades simply means realm of the spirits. Since the NT was translated into Greek, Hades was the word that best described Sheol from the OT. The idea of Hades comes from Sheol in the OT, not Greek mythology. In short, OT Sheol is translated Hades in the NT.

I've always said that Satan loves to put false icing on a true cake. We have the tendency to throw the whole thing away, or to use another metaphor, to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that Purgatory, or the bad icing, had that purpose in mind, steering people away from a the Biblical truth of Sheol/Hades. Added to that the KJV erroneously translated that same word as 'hell' in many places. This was one of the errors that the NKJV fixed.

Here's a link that everyone should have in their library that touched on this and more. I found this about twenty years ago and it was saying many of the things that I was discovering at the same time.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

From this link below i took a quick, brief description to save time...

Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ

www.opc.org

"In the Apostles' Creed (called thus, not because it was written by the apostles, but because it sets forth in summary fashion the teaching of the apostles), there is the phrase, "Was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into Hell [Hades] ...."

In the materials supplied by the Westminster Assembly (1643-1648), the version of the Apostles' Creed printed there contains a footnote to the words "descended into hell" which reads as follows: "i.e. Continued in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day." Similarly, the Westminster Larger Catechism Question 50 reads as follows: "Wherein consisted Christ's humiliation after his death?" Answer: "Christ's humiliation after his death consisted in his being buried, and continuing in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day; which has been otherwise expressed in these words, he descended into hell." In other words, as understood by the Westminster Divines, "descended into hell" teaches that Jesus continued to be in the grave until the third day.

Incidentally, John Calvin took the phrase differently; he took it to mean in a metaphorical way that Christ endured the pains of hell on the cross. He argued that otherwise, this pithy Apostles' Creed said the same thing twice, which Calvin considered unlikely. He was probably right about one thing - that such a repetition was not part of the original Creed. In fact, the phrase, "descended into hell" was not original to the Creed. When it first appeared it was inserted as a substitute explanation for the phrase "buried". Only later did both terms appear together."

--------------------------

I know one thing, If Sheol/Hades is correct, as I understand it, then the traditional reformed view has big problems.

So, is this just a case of Biblical truth being buried by centuries of red tape, politics, or the "church"?

How did reformed theology, in my opinion, miss this doctrine? Is it just as easy as saying it's death, the grave, and clap our theological hands together, thus clapping the dust from our hands of all the theological complications that would arise otherwise?

What say you?

 

[Dave...]

"While Paradise is not now a part of Sheol/Hades it will be mentioned here because it was located in Sheol/Hades at one time. Before the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ everybody who died went to Sheol/Hades, which was at that time divided into at least two compartments. One was a place of torment while the other was a place of blessing, which was referred to as Abraham's Bosom (Lk. 16:22-25). As we mentioned before, Tartarus may be a specific place in Sheol/Hades.

We know that Jesus Christ went "into the lower parts of the earth" (Eph. 4:9), that is to Sheol/Hades, "in the heart of the earth," for three days and nights while his body was in the grave (Mat. 12:40). The Lord Jesus told the repentant thief that he would join Him in Paradise that same day (Lk. 23:42,43). This tells us that Paradise was located in Sheol/Hades at that time. We believe that this was the same place referred to as Abraham's Bosom in Luke 16. However, after Jesus Christ rose from the dead He ascended to the Father, taking the saints who were in Abraham's Bosom to heaven with Him. Thus, He took "captivity captive" (see Eph. 4:8-10).

That Paradise was moved to heaven is confirmed to us by the Apostle Paul who speaks of a man who was "caught up into Paradise" where he "heard unspeakable words" (II Cor. 12:3,4). With Jesus Christ's work complete, the believers who had been confined to Sheol/Hades were now taken to Heaven to wait in God's presence until the time of their resurrection to enter His Kingdom on Earth. Since that time, at death all believers go to Paradise in Heaven to await the time of their resurrection. This is true whether they belong to the Kingdom Church of the future or the Body of Christ Church of the present Dispensation of Grace."

Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

There seems to be some confusion about the meaning of Hell and who goes there because of the way the Hebrew word Sheol and the Greek word Hades have been translated in our English Bibles. Since this confusion has led some into an erroneous understanding of what the Bible actually teaches about the i

bereanbiblesociety.org

 

[37818]

Sheol in the KJV is translated as, *pit, *grave & hell.
Hades as *grave & hell. Not to be confused with two other places also translated hell.
* pit & grave, are also other than, Sheol or Hades.

 

[Dave...]

This is from the link from the OP. Then it goes on to describe what Hades/Sheol does mean. One thing that I like about the NKJV Bible is that it fixed all those mistranslations. It correctly translates 'Sheol' and 'Hades', where the original KJV used 'Hell'.

When we turn to the lexicographical material, we find that the authors of the Septuagint were correct in their usage of Hades as the Greek equivalent for the Hebrew Sheol.

Arndt and Gingrich... A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament... define Hades as 'the underworld ... the place of the dead' (p. 16). Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon (p. 11) states that Hades comes from two words which joined together [which] mean 'invisible,' or 'unseen.' Thus it refers to 'the common receptacle of disembodied spirits.'

The KJV mistranslated the word Hades in every occurrence just as it did with the word Sheol. It is found ten times in the Greek New Testament. The Greek text underlying the KJV [the Textus Receptus] has it an eleventh time in 1 Cor 15:55, but this is a corrupt reading.

Perhaps the best way to clarify what the New Testament teaches about Hades is to first of all state what Hades does not mean. Once we have cleared away any misconceptions of this word, then we can present its meaning in the New Testament.

First, Hades does not mean death, because the Greek word thanatos is the word for death in the New Testament. Also, Hades and death appear together in such passages as Rev 1:18 where they cannot be viewed as synonyms...

i) [Rev 1:18]:

"I am the Loving One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades."

Second, Hades is not the grave, because the Greek word mneema is the word for grave in the New Testament. Also, all the arguments which demonstrated that Sheol cannot mean the grave apply equally to Hades seeing that Hades is the equivalent for the Hebrew word Sheol. The New Testament's dependence upon the Septuagint demonstrates this point.

Third, Hades is not 'hell,' i.e., the place of final punishment for the wicked, because the Greek word Gehenna is the word for 'hell' in the New Testament.

Fourth, Hades is not 'heaven,' i.e., the place where the soul of the righteous goes at death to await the coming resurrection, because the Greek word ouranos is the word for heaven in the New Testament.

Fifth, Hades is not the place of eternal bliss for the righteous after the resurrection, because the new heavens and the new earth or the everlasting kingdom refer to this place (Matt 24:34; Rev 21:1).

 

[Dave...]

The link from the second post gets into all that also. It's pretty good.

 

[Dave G]

Hades simply means realm of the spirits.

I'll have to somewhat disagree with you on that, Dave, as I see God's word teaching something a little different than what is known as "Hades"...which, in Greek mythology, is indeed the place of the dead...
But it has a king and his name is "Hades" as well.

If speaking to a Greek ( and translating the New Testament into modern day Greek ), we could use the word "Hades", or we could use whatever else is known, in their language, as "the place of the dead".
If there is no one word, then I would personally use the best word or group of words that fits.

If speaking to a Jew and with respect to the Old Testament Scriptures, there is "Shiamim" which is the abode of God, and there is "Sheol", which is the Hebrew word ( anglicized ) for the place of the dead... where men go to rest, spiritually, until the Judgement.

 

[Dave G]

Since the NT was translated into Greek, Hades was the word that best described Sheol from the OT. The idea of Hades comes from Sheol in the OT, not Greek mythology.

Again I'll have to disagree...but the reason that I do is because of how I understand both pagan religions and the faith that was once delivered to the saints.
To me, the idea of "Hades" is not and never was the exact same thing as what the Lord, in His word, tells us are the places that the spirits inhabit.
Also, it seems to me that you may be looking at the whole thing and not knowing the differences between what is known as "translation" versus what is known as "transliteration"...

"Translation" takes a word or group of words in one language, and carries it, as exactly as possible, over into the words of the target language.

"Transliteration" takes a word in one language and carries it exactly into the other language with no change, except to use the target language's alphabet or other form of writing.
A good example of this would be to carry Chinese characters over into English using our alphabet, by a process known as "pinyin".

As another example, with Hebrew, the transliteration of " שְׁא֣וֹל " is "Sheol".
With Greek, the transliteration of " γεέννῃ" is "Gehenna", while the transliteration of " ᾅδης" is "Hades".
All would be properly translated into the English as, "Hell", or could be left as transliterated into their proper names in Romanized letters.


As a translator, I would not use the process of transliteration, as it could potentially confuse the people reading it and at the same time, not be strictly considered a translation.

 

[Dave G]

I've always said that Satan loves to put false icing on a true cake. We have the tendency to throw the whole thing away, or to use another metaphor, to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that Purgatory, or the bad icing, had that purpose in mind, steering people away from a the Biblical truth of Sheol/Hades. Added to that the KJV erroneously translated that same word as 'hell' in many places. This was one of the errors that the NKJV fixed.

It seems that I, as well as you, have a similar observation of how Satan works and what devices he uses in order to spread false teachings, as well as to confuse, hinder and outright trouble God's children in this world.
However, in the case of the NKJV, I think that it broke more things than it fixed.
That, I'm convinced, is for another thread however.

What I will say, at this point, is that while I do agree that the KJV translators could potentially have chosen a better word than "Hel / Hell", there wasn't much else to choose from than that which had become part of the language of the day... the name of which, and whose origins were from, Norse mythology:

"Hell", named after "Hel / Hela" and had, after roughly 1,000 years, become so attached and so associated with what they knew as "the realm of the dead", that everyone knew what it meant.

 

[Dave G]

In other words, as understood by the Westminster Divines, "descended into hell" teaches that Jesus continued to be in the grave until the third day.

I don't see the Bible ever teaching that Jesus Christ simply remained in the grave until the morning of the 3rd day...
But I do see this:

" For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 by which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." ( 1 Peter 3:18-20 ). <----- To me, "prison" here is the place of the dead...
And before He rose again, they were one place divided by a great "gulf" between them.

and this:

" 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) " ( Ephesians 4:8-10 ). <-----This, I believe, is a reference to that same place, and gives its physical location....

In the lower parts of the earth;
That same earth that has a molten core.

So, as a "Calvinistic Baptist", I see that Jesus Christ did not remain in the grave in spirit, but that He did descend into the lower parts of the earth.
His body was all that remained in the tomb.

 

[Dave G]

I know one thing, If Sheol/Hades is correct, as I understand it, then the traditional reformed view has big problems.

So, is this just a case of Biblical truth being buried by centuries of red tape, politics, or the "church"?

How did reformed theology, in my opinion, miss this doctrine? Is it just as easy as saying it's death, the grave, and clap our theological hands together, thus clapping the dust from our hands of all the theological complications that would arise otherwise?

What say you?

Ultimately,
I don't think the main objection you may be having is with the translation or the transliteration of the words.

I think that there are two separate issues, and a contributing factor here is in how you're looking at what is expressed in "Reformed Theology" as a whole, and specifically what was stated in the Westminster Assembly.

What I see is that, while many Baptists of the time looked at what it said and agreed with some of it, they did not agree with all of it.
That's why, even though the London Baptist Confessions ( of first 1644, then 1646, and then the far larger one of 1689 ) may seem to be a mirror of it, they do not copy it exactly.

In other words,
I think what you may be doing, Dave, is confusing what many who are called "Baptists" hold to, with what Presbyterians and other Reformed denominations hold to.

May God bless you sir.

 

[John of Japan]

Hades simply means realm of the spirits. Since the NT was translated into Greek, Hades was the word that best described Sheol from the OT. The idea of Hades comes from Sheol in the OT, not Greek mythology. In short, OT Sheol is translated Hades in the NT.

I've always said that Satan loves to put false icing on a true cake. We have the tendency to throw the whole thing away, or to use another metaphor, to throw the baby out with the bath water. I think that Purgatory, or the bad icing, had that purpose in mind, steering people away from a the Biblical truth of Sheol/Hades. Added to that the KJV erroneously translated that same word as 'hell' in many places. This was one of the errors that the NKJV fixed.

Here's a link that everyone should have in their library that touched on this and more. I found this about twenty years ago and it was saying many of the things that I was discovering at the same time.

BIBLE STUDY MANUALS: EPHESIANS 4:7-9 HE LED THE CAPTIVES FREE

From this link below i took a quick, brief description to save time...

Question & Answer: The Orthodox Presbyterian Church

We're the Orthodox Presbyterian Church. Our purpose is simple: to bring glory to God through our churches and individual lives to make known to the world the good news of salvation through Jesus Christ

www.opc.org

"In the Apostles' Creed (called thus, not because it was written by the apostles, but because it sets forth in summary fashion the teaching of the apostles), there is the phrase, "Was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into Hell [Hades] ...."

In the materials supplied by the Westminster Assembly (1643-1648), the version of the Apostles' Creed printed there contains a footnote to the words "descended into hell" which reads as follows: "i.e. Continued in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day." Similarly, the Westminster Larger Catechism Question 50 reads as follows: "Wherein consisted Christ's humiliation after his death?" Answer: "Christ's humiliation after his death consisted in his being buried, and continuing in the state of the dead, and under the power of death till the third day; which has been otherwise expressed in these words, he descended into hell." In other words, as understood by the Westminster Divines, "descended into hell" teaches that Jesus continued to be in the grave until the third day.

Incidentally, John Calvin took the phrase differently; he took it to mean in a metaphorical way that Christ endured the pains of hell on the cross. He argued that otherwise, this pithy Apostles' Creed said the same thing twice, which Calvin considered unlikely. He was probably right about one thing - that such a repetition was not part of the original Creed. In fact, the phrase, "descended into hell" was not original to the Creed. When it first appeared it was inserted as a substitute explanation for the phrase "buried". Only later did both terms appear together."

--------------------------

I know one thing, If Sheol/Hades is correct, as I understand it, then the traditional reformed view has big problems.

So, is this just a case of Biblical truth being buried by centuries of red tape, politics, or the "church"?

How did reformed theology, in my opinion, miss this doctrine? Is it just as easy as saying it's death, the grave, and clap our theological hands together, thus clapping the dust from our hands of all the theological complications that would arise otherwise?

What say you?

Actually, the NKJV doesn't "translate" hades but transliterates it. However, there are places where the KJV correctly translates hades as "Hell," such as Luke 16, where the rich man is tormented in fire. That could be nothing other than Hell. The correct meaning is determined by context, of course.

 

[Dave...]

I'll have to somewhat disagree with you on that, Dave, as I see God's word teaching something a little different than what is known as "Hades"...which, in Greek mythology, is indeed the place of the dead...
But it has a king and his name is "Hades" as well.

If speaking to a Greek ( and translating the New Testament into modern day Greek ), we could use the word "Hades", or we could use whatever else is known, in their language, as "the place of the dead".
If there is no one word, then I would personally use the best word or group of words that fits.

If speaking to a Jew and with respect to the Old Testament Scriptures, there is "Shiamim" which is the abode of God, and there is "Sheol", which is the Hebrew word ( anglicized ) for the place of the dead... where men go to rest, spiritually, until the Judgement.

Hey Dave.

I guess my point was that the Hades in the New Testament was not an idea that was borrowed from Greek mythology, rather, it originated in the OT Sheol. Just in case someone, like atheists often do, suspected something in the Bible was borrowed from another religion. Hades was the best word that was available in the Greek to translate the OT word Sheol. "Hell", on the other hand, is a problem because the Great White Throne judgment is still future, and Hades is simply the holding cell until that judgment. In other words, nobody is in Hell yet.

We see in some cases that the when the OT 'Sheol' is quoted in the NT, the Scripture in Greek quotes that "Sheol" using the word "Hades". At least in the NKJV it did. that could be part of the "mess" that you spoke of. I'm not sure if that was part of your point of contention or not, so I just threw that out there for the record. See Psalm 16:10, compare to Acts 2:27 for one example.

Psalm 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Acts 2:27-28 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.' "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne, he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption. This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses. Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear. For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'The Lord said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Dave

 

[Dave G]

I guess my point was that the Hades in the New Testament was not an idea that was borrowed from Greek mythology, rather, it originated in the OT Sheol.

I agree.
The idea of a holding place or final destination for the dead exists in both pagan religions and God's word.

But I see something that could be the reason that you're looking at it the way you do, and I tried to point it out to you in my prior posts:
You use the NKJV, do you not?
I use the KJV...

One of the many differences between the NKJV and the KJV, is the way that translators chose to translate the Hebrew and Greek words for the place of the dead.
The NKJV chose transliteration, while the KJV chose translation.

So, the question to me is, "who actually translated it properly, and who simply transliterated the words instead of properly translating them?"

 

[Dave G]

Just in case someone, like atheists often do, suspected something in the Bible was borrowed from another religion. Hades was the best word that was available in the Greek to translate the OT word Sheol.

My friend, "Hades" is not an English word..."Hell" is.
"Hades" is a transliterated Greek word, not a translated Greek word.
Do you see the difference?

To me, the KJV is the more proper and accurate translation in this case ( regardless of how old it is ), while the NKJV did not properly translate the words for "Hell" and never has.
My guess is that the NKJV translators, in order to make a more modern translation in English and to avoid any possible copyright infringements with other translations, deliberately used a method called "transliteration" to carry those words over into the English, instead of properly translating them.
Do you begin to see the confusion that this causes?

That's one of the many reasons that I don't recommend the NKJV to anyone.

 

[Dave G]

Psalm 16:10 For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption.

Let's see how it is in the KJV:
" For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."

Acts 2:27-28 For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption. You have made known to me the ways of life; You will make me full of joy in Your presence.'

Again, in the KJV:

" because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance."

"Hell", on the other hand, is a problem because the Great White Throne judgment is still future, and Hades is simply the holding cell until that judgment. In other words, nobody is in Hell yet.

To me, "hell" isn't a problem for someone who uses a proper translation, Dave.
But it is a problem for people who use and rely on a "translation" that employs a mix of proper translation plus transliteration.
I encourage you to look up the definitions of both terms.

That said,
My Bible says that there are people in Hell right now, and death and Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire at the Judgement ( Revelation 20:14 ).