Hands Off Indigenous Peoples, No Christian Missionaries Allowed

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: The only sin that will send a person to Hell is unbelief in Christ.

HP: I think much of your post was right on. Just the same, the statement above, as you well know, I believe is in error. Are you going to go on record telling us that all these tribes that have never been reached by the outside world are guilty of rejecting a Christ of whom they have no understanding of, or are you going to tell us that the gospel is presented to everyone of them and that without exception?

 

[DHK]

HP: I think much of your post was right on. Just the same, the statement above, as you well know, I believe is in error. Are you going to go on record telling us that all these tribes that have never been reached by the outside world are guilty of rejecting a Christ of whom they have no understanding of, or are you going to tell us that the gospel is presented to everyone of them and that without exception?

I believe the Bible.
My statement is what the Bible teaches. See: John 3:16, 18, 36 and 14:6.

If you have a problem with that you have some choices to make. Either:
1. You deny what the Bible teaches.
2. You misunderstand what the Bible teaches.
3. You don't trust God in matters concerning salvation and his promises related to salvation.
4. You simply don't trust the sovereignty of God.

Which of the above do you choose?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: I believe the Bible.
My statement is what the Bible teaches. See: John 3:16, 18, 36 and 14:6.

HP: Have I ever heard you tell others something like the mere listing of a listing of Scriptures can be accomplished by anyone, but to little avail in a debate? What Scripture, of the ones you listed or any other for that matter, makes your claim that all have the gospel presented to them?

 

[DHK]

HP: Have I ever heard you tell others something like the mere listing of a listing of Scriptures can be accomplished by anyone, but to little avail in a debate? What Scripture, of the ones you listed or any other for that matter, makes your claim that all have the gospel presented to them?

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The teaching of the above Scripture is that salvation is through Christ alone. He is the only way to Heaven. There is no other way.
It is not through Mohammed, Buddha, or any of the pagan Hindu gods. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. Christ Himself made that very clear. Rejection of Jesus Christ condemns one to Hell. That is the one sin that condemns a person to Hell. One can commit all knids of sins. Those sins can be forgiven. But rejecting Christ can never be forgiven, as long as one remains in that state. As long as one keeps rejecting Christ he will be condmned to Hell no matter what he does. His works cannot save him.
Rejection of Christ is the only sin that condemns a person to Hell. The Scriptures are very plain in this teaching.
How can anyone come to any other conclusion?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The teaching of the above Scripture is that salvation is through Christ alone. He is the only way to Heaven. There is no other way.

HP: I fully agree. :thumbs:

DHK: It is not through Mohammed, Buddha, or any of the pagan Hindu gods. The only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ. Christ Himself made that very clear.

HP: I fully agree. :thumbs:

DHK: Rejection of Jesus Christ condemns one to Hell. That is the one sin that condemns a person to Hell. One can commit all knids of sins. Those sins can be forgiven. But rejecting Christ can never be forgiven, as long as one remains in that state. As long as one keeps rejecting Christ he will be condmned to Hell no matter what he does. His works cannot save him.
Rejection of Christ is the only sin that condemns a person to Hell. The Scriptures are very plain in this teaching.
How can anyone come to any other conclusion?

HP: I am still waiting for the verse that supports the conjecture that all men have an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, and that the 'only damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ.' John 14:6 simply states no such thing. How in the world can you come to such conclusions? They are not based on this verse, that is for certain.

 

[DHK]

HP: I am still waiting for the verse that supports the conjecture that all men have an opportunity to hear and respond to the gospel, and that the 'only damning sin is the rejection of Jesus Christ.' John 14:6 simply states no such thing. How in the world can you come to such conclusions? They are not based on this verse, that is for certain.

John 14:6 does state this belief. If you are not willing to accept it, that is your problem. You must take it up with God. If you are worried about those who you say have never heard then take the advice of Jesus:

Mark 10:21 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

In "following Jesus" it means carry out the Great Commission as stated in Matthew 28:19,20. Go to China, India, Saudia Araibia, Pakistan, some of the most neediest places in the world and make sure those peoples have heard the gospel. This is your obligation.
This is what it means when Jesus said:
"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyeslf."

 

[Bob Dudley]

Jesus said, "go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."

Pretty much the end of the argument if you ask me.

 

[Bob Dudley]

Oh, and to answer one of the other questions on this thread... Yes, if a person does not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (NO exceptions) they will spend eternity in hell. Compare John 3:18 and 3:36. The default for every human on the planet is eternal judgement. Only way out of that is to make a decision to trust in Jesus. If you have the ability to reach someone with the gospel and you do not do it (whether in your town or across the planet) then they will go to hell for their sins but their blood will be on your hands (and mine). Compare Ezekial 33 and Acts 20:26-27.

There are things in the Bible that are hard to understand and there are things that we may never understand until we get to heaven. However, the way of salvation is not one of those. It is as plain as it can be. There is salvation in no other name but Jesus, period.

 

[Andre]

Your arguments fail miserably.
First let me give you a simple outline of the first three chapters of Romans.
.
In chapter two Paul addresses the unsaved Jews.
.
.

Incorrect and obviously so, at least in relation to the text at issue, which is Romans 2:12-14. In the following from Romans 2, Paul makes it explicitly clear that he is indeed addressing all of humanity - Jew and Gentiles:


5But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. 6God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[a] 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.
12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

There is no doubt - in this particular block of text, Paul is indeed talking about a judgement for all human beings, Jew and Gentile.

There may be other parts of Romans 2 that are directed to Jew (unsaved Jews in particular). But the issue that I was responding to was an argument that Romans 2:14 supports the notion that the "heathen" get judged by their consciences. I have argued that 2:14 in particular refers to saved Gentiles, not to the heathen who have never heard the gospel.

 

[Andre]

There is no "pst-regenerate state here. There is the saved and the unsaved. Paul is clearly addressing the unsaved Jew in chapter two, though he makes the occasional reference to the unsaved Gentile (2:14,15).

I think it is pretty clear that Paul is talking about saved Gentiles in verses 14 and 15. What happens when you accept Jesus? The Spirit writes the Law on your heart (as per Romans 10 where Paul alludes to the Deuteronomy 30 passage which is a promise about the law being written on the heart when the covenant is renewed - and not every human is in the covenant). The Spirit does not write the law on the heart of the unbeliever. I will perhaps go into this in more detail in another post.

And it is clearly impossible that in Romans 2, Paul is addressing only the unsaved, whether Jew or Gentile. He is addressing all of humanity including those who get eternal life. No less than three times Paul refers to people getting eternal life (verses 7, 10, and 13). So at least the verse 5 to 16 block is not only about the unsaved.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Andre: The Spirit writes the Law on your heart (as per Romans 10 where Paul alludes to the Deuteronomy 30 passage which is a promise about the law being written on the heart when the covenant is renewed - and not every human is in the covenant). The Spirit does not write the law on the heart of the unbeliever.

HP: Where would the principles of justice etc. come from, that are universal in nature, if not as a direct result of the Holy Spirit writing them upon the tablets of our heart? Is it not first truths of reason, granted to all moral agents, the very basis of the law that all are responsible to live by, to the degree that each one is given this knowledge?

 

[Andre]

HP: Where would the principles of justice etc. come from, that are universal in nature, if not as a direct result of the Holy Spirit writing them upon the tablets of our heart? Is it not first truths of reason, granted to all moral agents, the very basis of the law that all are responsible to live by, to the degree that each one is given this knowledge?

Hello HP:

I have never denied that God grants knowledge of "right and wrong" to all moral agents.

What I have been arguing about is the very specific material in Romans 2:14-15. In those specific texts, I believe that when Paul refers to Gentiles, he is referring to those Gentiles who have already been redeemed and had the "true spirit of Torah" written on their hearts.

This may seem confusing, since in my first para, I implicitly agree that all men know "right and wrong". I do not think this is a real problem, though. I can legitimately assert that all humans have a general sense of right vs wrong and only the redeemed have this particular gift of the "spirit of Torah" being written on their hearts.

This may seem a little complex, but one really needs to take Paul seriously - in Romans 10, he makes a very clear connection between the law being written on the heart and proclaiming that Jesus is Lord:

6But the righteousness that is by faith says: "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?'[b]" (that is, to bring Christ down) 7"or 'Who will descend into the deep?'[c]" (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,"[d] that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming: 9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Is Paul such an ambiguous writer that he would, here in Romans 10, connect "the law written on the heart" to the "righteousness that is by faith" (and not all persons are in this category) and yet use the exact same "law written on the heart" phrasing in Romans 2 and yet there be referring to a general moral sense that all humans possess?

Paul is a very sophisticated and careful writer - I am quite convinced that in 2:14-15, he is referring to the same set of people as in the text of Romans 10, those who possess the "righteousness that is by faith" (although in Romans 2:14-15, he is focused on the "Gentile" subset of the larger set of those who have faith).

 

[BobRyan]

I have very mixed feelings on this. As a historian who studies early contact between American Natives and Europeans I know what happens when well meaning people make contact with uncontacted people. The uncontacted tribes are lost to disease and the over powering force of advanced civilization.

What is their average life span -- pre-contact vs post-contact statistically? My understanding is that life span averages often double AFTER being contacted.

Do they "eat people" do they offer human sacrifices, polygamy? how can you know until you contact them? What happens to their souls after they die?

How much of that "do you preserve?"

How much do you "want" to preserve?

In Any case - Matt 24 "This Gospel of the kingdom WILL be preached in all of the world and THEN will the end come"

We are getting very very close.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BR: In Any case - Matt 24 "This Gospel of the kingdom WILL be preached in all of the world and THEN will the end come"

We are getting very very close.

HP: It has been your position all along that ALL have received the gospel message, has it not? What is this about getting ‘very very close’ you speak of? Are you saying that all have received the gospel but all have not received the ‘gospel of the kingdom’ but are getting close?

I cannot help but see you as trying to have it both ways, i.e., all have received yet all have not yet received. Which is it?

 

[Born_in_Crewe]

My two cents on this question of Heavenly Pilgrim: not all have heard the true Christian gospel, even in developed countries, let alone primitive tribes in undeveloped areas. However, I think all people are born with at least a vague sense of right and wrong, even though it is tainted by sin.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Born_in_Crewe: My two cents on this question of Heavenly Pilgrim: not all have heard the true Christian gospel, even in developed countries, let alone primitive tribes in undeveloped areas.

HP: That is not a mere two cents my friend, that is the truth!:thumbs:

BiC: However, I think all people are born with at least a vague sense of right and wrong, even though it is tainted by sin.

HP: I would say more than mere vague, for God has implanted within every man some truth as to right and wrong. Romans makes it clear as to the existence of this truth. Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Certainly as they violate the intuitive truth they have, they form habits of disobedience due to sin, the same as the case was with most if not all of us, which aides to darken even the intuitive light they once had until they come to a point where they can act ‘as if though’ they have no conscience or inner testimony to the truth.

It has been some tine since I read about the death of the five missionaries killed in South America, but I remember reading somewhere that some of those that actually did the killing later became Christians. As I recall it was the testimony of at least one of the men that was involved in killing them that they instinctively fled into the jungle after they murdered those men, knowing full well that their acts were evil and wrong. I remember as I read about that encounter that the evidence of the law being written upon their hearts by God was indeed evident in their hearts and lives as shown forth by their actions and their own testimony.

 

[DHK]

..

Born_in_Crewe said:
"My two cents on this question of Heavenly Pilgrim: not all have heard the true Christian gospel, even in developed countries, let alone primitive tribes in undeveloped areas."

To which HP repliedHP:

That is not a mere two cents my friend, that is the truth!:thumbs:

I also couldn't agree more with the statement as it is; the operative word being "have." No, not all have heard the gospel. My children did not hear the gospel until they were old enough to hear it, and even then they did not accept it right away. Not all have heard the gospel in this country. I never heard the gospel until I was 20 years old. As the statement stands I don't argue with it. It is correct.

However, the real question is: Will all, (within the age of accountability) during their lifetimes, be given the opportunity to hear the gospel at least once? And the answer to that question, according to the Bible is "yes."
But because there are some on the board do not like what the Bible says on this question; are willing to rationalize it away; and in doing so rationalize away their responsibity also to the Great Commission.
In doing so, they, like Pilate, will stand before Christ someday and try to excuse themselves in saying: "I am free from the blood of these men."
Christ, the righteous judge, will accept no such excuse.

HP: I would say more than mere vague, for God has implanted within every man some truth as to right and wrong. Romans makes it clear as to the existence of this truth. Ro 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

The verse simply means, as you point out, that man has a knowledge of right and wrong. It does not mean that they have been given the gospel or are saved as Andre suggests.

Certainly as they violate the intuitive truth they have, they form habits of disobedience due to sin, the same as the case was with most if not all of us, which aides to darken even the intuitive light they once had until they come to a point where they can act ‘as if though’ they have no conscience or inner testimony to the truth.

Quite true. God reveals himself in all of his creation (Romans 1:20). Man is without excuse to believe the facts about God which He has revealed about Himself. He rejects them and foolishly turns to idols instead.

It has been some tine since I read about the death of the five missionaries killed in South America, but I remember reading somewhere that some of those that actually did the killing later became Christians. As I recall it was the testimony of at least one of the men that was involved in killing them that they instinctively fled into the jungle after they murdered those men, knowing full well that their acts were evil and wrong. I remember as I read about that encounter that the evidence of the law being written upon their hearts by God was indeed evident in their hearts and lives as shown forth by their actions and their own testimony.

The martyrdom of those five missionaries led to many of their salvation, as the wife of one them (Jim Elliot) was able to go back and lead many of them to the Lord.

 

[Palatka51]

:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: However, the real question is: Will all, (within the age of accountability) during their lifetimes, be given the opportunity to hear the gospel at least once? And the answer to that question, according to the Bible is "yes."

HP: You are placing yourself in a precarious position that is not substantiated by Scripture, reason, or experience. If your position was true, one would be forced to believe that somehow 'mysteriously' the gospel has reached the multitudes of thousands if not millions of descendents of these tribes that are deceased without reaching one living individual now alive within them. How can this be seen in any way as logical or in accordance to truth?

DHK: The verse simply means, as you point out, that man has a knowledge of right and wrong. It does not mean that they have been given the gospel or are saved as Andre suggests.

HP: I fully agree with DHK in his debate with Andre on this point.:thumbs:

 

[DHK]

HP: You are placing yourself in a precarious position that is not substantiated by Scripture, reason, or experience. If your position was true, one would be forced to believe that somehow 'mysteriously' the gospel has reached the multitudes of thousands if not millions of descendents of these tribes that are deceased without reaching one living individual now alive within them. How can this be seen in any way as logical or in accordance to truth?

It is substantiated by Scripture, over and over again.

1. Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
--Do I deny what God has said, just because I do not understand the methods of God, or how God accomplishes his promise. No, I believe what He says. And here He says that He brings salvation to all men. Nothing could be more clearly stated than this Scripture right here.

2. Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--God Himself has declared that man is without excuse.

3. John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
God
--God is not cruel nor vindicative. He is faithful to His Word and a God of love.
He claims to be the only Way to Heaven. If that claim is true then he would provide a way for all men to get there. The same holds true for such Scripture as John 3:18,36.

"He that believeth not is condemned already."
--He would never say that unless he provided a way to believe. God is not cruel and vindictive. One must study the attributes of God. He is the WAY, the only way, and he provides direction to that Way. Because you may not uderstand his method, does not give you the right to blame God as being cruel. And that is what you are doing.

Isaiah 55:8-9 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

4. The Great Commission was not given in vain.

Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
--The onus of the lost in on us, not God. If they are lost, it is the fault of believers who are reticent to go out and point them to the Saviour who can and will save them. In the end, if they do not hear the gospel, their blood will be on our hands. What are you doing for Christ? What is your part in carrying our the Great Commission, and making sure that everyone has a chance to hear the Gospel.
But this one thing know: God is never at fault.