Hank Hanegraaff

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
We must also note that faith, hope, and love are never mentioned as spiritual gifts the way that Paul frequently defines them.

Sure they are. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same spirit."

If faith is a spiritual gift, why not love and hope?

And before we go to the prophecies and tongues ceasing, you must also note that these two alone are mentioned, and the ceasing is in the future tense, while the "remaining" is in the present.

Yes, because Paul wrote that when the other gifts still existed. Yet he said the other gifts would cease to exist when the perfect knowledge and prophecy arrived.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by gb93433:
From 1 Cor 13:8: If you say that faith hope and love are the only three remaining, then are you also saying that knowledge is done away with also. You seem to indicate that all is in the present tense.

This has nothing to do with the historical context of 1 Corinthians.

GB,

Paul wrote the passage when the gifts other than faith, hope, and love still were in operation. But he said the time would come when those other gifts would pass away.

He did not say that knowledge, or for that matter, tongues, healings, or any of the other things mentioned would pass away. What he said is that the gifts of these things would pass away.

A man who had the gift of knowledge got knowledge directly from God. Today, we get it by only by study. A man who had the gift of tongues got it directly from God. If we want to learn a foreign tongue today we must learn it by study. If we want to heal someone, we must study the discipline of medicine.

Paul said that when the perfect knowledge and prophecy would come, the partial gifts of knowledge and prophecy would pass, along with all the other gifts, excepting faith, hope, and love. When did this happen? The Scriptures are not ambiguous at all:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in the book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

The King James translators understood the import of these words to well that they appended a big, "THE END" at the close.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in the book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

The King James translators understood the import of these words to well that they appended a big, "THE END" at the close.

If that's the way they understood it, then they violated the principle by adding the words "THE END" to the scripture.

The words "THE END" are not in the Greek manuscripts.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

If that's the way they understood it, then they violated the principle by adding the words "THE END" to the scripture.

The words "THE END" are not in the Greek manuscripts.

BaptistBeliever,

I don't suspect that they meant the "The End" to be taken as inspired Scripture any more than their notes, their headings at the top of the pages, or the Apocrypha which was included with the original King James Bibles.

If, however, they did intend to deceive people into thinking that the words "The End" were part of the inspired text, then you are correct; they are guilty of the horrible crime of adding to the word of God.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
Sure they are. "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; to another faith by the same spirit."

If faith is a spiritual gift, why not love and hope?

Because Paul doesn't say so.

And before we go to the prophecies and tongues ceasing, you must also note that these two alone are mentioned, and the ceasing is in the future tense, while the "remaining" is in the present.

Yes, because Paul wrote that when the other gifts still existed. Yet he said the other gifts would cease to exist when the perfect knowledge and prophecy arrived.

Mark Osgatharp [/QB][/QUOTE]

You miss what it says. He says that the faith, hope, and love "remain" not "will remain." There's a significant difference there.

Even then, the burden of proof is still upon you to prove that these gifts somehow are not with us anymore. Do people still not prophecy? Of course they do. Are people still teach? Of course they do. Teaching, as a spiritual gift, has certainly not faded away. What about evangelism?

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book.

And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in the book.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen."

The last verses in Revelation are speaking specifically to the words of Revelation, not the entire Bible. Do you seriously believe that John is talking about the entire canon, which undoubtedly included several letters that he had never read? If so, what evidence do you have, other than that it appears at the end of the Bible?

It is important, also, to understand from examining the history of the development of the canon, that the early church fathers did not place Revelation at the end of the NT. This seems to invalidate your claim.

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
The last verses in Revelation are speaking specifically to the words of Revelation, not the entire Bible. Do you seriously believe that John is talking about the entire canon, which undoubtedly included several letters that he had never read? If so, what evidence do you have, other than that it appears at the end of the Bible?

Scott,

1. I have proven that faith, hope, and love were numbered among the spiritual gifts.

2. Whether or not John had the cannon of Scripture in mind or just the book of Revelation is irrelevant. The fact is he, or rather should I say, Christ made it clear that after Revelation there would be no further prophecy.

If this is not the event prophesied by Paul in I Corinthians chapter 13 that would spell the end of the spiritual gifts then, pray tell me, what was?

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
1. I have proven that faith, hope, and love were numbered among the spiritual gifts.

No, you showed that faith was. Faith is used in a variety of contexts, so even this is questionable. You still have not shown that hope nor love is a spiritual gift. Paul doesn't say so.

2. Whether or not John had the cannon of Scripture in mind or just the book of Revelation is irrelevant. The fact is he, or rather should I say, Christ made it clear that after Revelation there would be no further prophecy.

Read Revelation 22 again. Christ makes it clear that nothing should be added to "THIS BOOK." There is nothing about prophect in general or even adding anything after the book of Revelation was written. You are guilty of poor hermeneutic.

If this is not the event prophesied by Paul in I Corinthians chapter 13 that would spell the end of the spiritual gifts then, pray tell me, what was?

Don't know. The Bible is silent on that. However, from other person's experience, as well as my own, spiritual gifts are alive and well. Perhaps you just have never received one. I dunno.

BTW, I talked to a friend of mine who happens to be black and told him your theory about his admission to college. He laughed and assured me that wasn't the case.

 

[Glory Bound]

See... this is why we Christians can't agree on people, because we can't agree on a lot of the issues.

At least Hank seems to understand that some issues are critical, while others are not.

I like Hank a lot, but even I disagree with him once in a while. I think he does a good job, though!

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
Christ makes it clear that nothing should be added to "THIS BOOK." There is nothing about prophect in general or even adding anything after the book of Revelation was written. You are guilty of poor hermeneutic.

.

So if you wanted to write a whole additional book of prophecy, that would be OK, just so long as you didn't claim it as part of the book of Revelation?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />If this is not the event prophesied by Paul in I Corinthians chapter 13 that would spell the end of the spiritual gifts then, pray tell me, what was?

Don't know. The Bible is silent on that.</font>[/QUOTE]Why would the Bible be silent on such a monumental issue as the cessation of miraculous gifts? Why would the Lord inspire Paul to tell us these gifts would cease when the perfect prophecy and knowledge would come, and then be silent as to the occasion of that event?

However, from other person's experience, as well as my own, spiritual gifts are alive and well. Perhaps you just have never received one. I dunno.

So which gift do you have? The gift of tongues or the gift of snake handling? Or maybe you send out healing hankies like Oral Roberts? ;0)

As for me, I have received all three of the remaining gifts, faith, hope, and love. That's all I need and all I ever expect.

BTW, I talked to a friend of mine who happens to be black and told him your theory about his admission to college. He laughed and assured me that wasn't the case.

You must be confusing me with someone else, because I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Mark Osgatharp:
So if you wanted to write a whole additional book of prophecy, that would be OK, just so long as you didn't claim it as part of the book of Revelation?

As long as it was inspired by God, sure.

Why would the Bible be silent on such a monumental issue as the cessation of miraculous gifts? Why would the Lord inspire Paul to tell us these gifts would cease when the perfect prophecy and knowledge would come, and then be silent as to the occasion of that event?

The Bible is silent on a lot of issues. The BIble says that Christ is going to come again, but is silent on when that will be.

So which gift do you have? The gift of tongues or the gift of snake handling? Or maybe you send out healing hankies like Oral Roberts? ;0)

I have the spiritual gifts of teaching, wisdom, and knowledge.

As for me, I have received all three of the remaining gifts, faith, hope, and love. That's all I need and all I ever expect.

Every Christian receives these. You have no clue what spiritual gifts really are do you? Please do a google search on it, or read some Christian material about it so you can be more informed.

You must be confusing me with someone else, because I don't have the slightest idea what you are talking about.

Haha, sorry - got you confused with Joseph Bostwick, who made an extraordinarily inane comment, was disproven, called on it, but never answered it.

Your argument styles are similar - that's how I got confused.

 

[Brett Valentine]

Hi all, getting back to Hank Hanefraaff, I read the articles and accounts at both links given early in the posting, and was very disturbed by what I read. Listening to the Bible Answer Man broadcast helped get me through a very rough period back around 1990. To read repeated accounts of his behavior was pretty hard. Upon reading them, it was interesting to note some of the argumentative trends in his style. WHat seemed to simply be pretty confrontational now look like signs of deeper issues.

I do pray they get back on track, because there is a lot of good that ministry does. It would be a shame to see them fall completely.

Thanks for the heads up. I've passed some of the information along to my sister and brother-in-law to consider for themselves.

Brett

 

[atestring]

Originally posted by bjonson:
More on Hank. This just posted today -

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2003/008/6.19.html

Not good for Mr. Hanegraff.

I looked on this website article and wondered why Hank( The Accuser of the Brethren) has the gall to write books criticizing Prosperity preachers.
When his ministry pays 2 months dues of $3100 for him to belong to the country club.
I wonder why people support him in this and criticize prosperity preachers.

 

[Mike McK]

Many years ago, I was friends with one of the sons of Bill and Joan Cetnar, who helped Walter Martin found CRI, so I've been interested in CRI for a long time.

CRI is one of the reasons I left the WoF cult, so naturally, I'm very grateful to them for that.

They've changed over the years and not for the better. When I first started listening, they would have debates, guests and Hannegraff had a partner on the air in Elliot Miller and Ron Rhodes. Friday nights, they'd even play classic Walter Martin.

Now, it's "My new book this" and "My new book that". Everything's for sale and every other word out of HH's mouth is hawking something.


He has so many good things to say and doctrinally, he's right on but he's become the Ron Popeil of Christianity.

Don't get me wrong, I understand that even ministries need to pay the bills but he's taken CRI so far away from Martin's vision that I doubt he'd recognize it, were he to come back and see.

I haven't listened in a very long time and, until things change, I don't plan to.

 

[Don]

I like what Mike McK had to say. Maybe it's time to e-mail Hank and remind him what his show used to be like, compared to what it is now.

 

[gb93433]

In 1 Corinthians chapter 14. Paul sought to put a control on the speaking of tongues. So he said that if it is from God then there must be an interpretation. Pray that one may interpret. The effect is that it is not necessary. But I don't believe you can say biblically only rationally that tongues has ceased.

Paul also spoke about more than one person preaching as well. Anybody know of any churches that do this.

1 Cor 14:27-32, "If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets;

 

[Don]

GB, what does that have to do with Hanegraaff?

 

[Mike McK]

You know, I was posting about this on another board and I remember that, about ten years ago, similar charges were made.

CRI had a falling out with ECFA after refusing to submit to an audit.

I'm starting to feel worse and worse about this all the time.

 

[Gunther]

Mark, I am just going to jump in here to help Scott out some. It appears as though he doesn't understand all of what you are saying.

Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
1. The last verses in Revelation are speaking specifically to the words of Revelation, not the entire Bible.

2. Do you seriously believe that John is talking about the entire canon, which undoubtedly included several letters that he had never read?

1. Actually, it does refer to all of God's revelation that he had man record in the Scriptures.

At the beginning of Revelation, John said that he was writing a letter to the churches. Then at the end of this "letter", he calls it a "book". As far as I understand both greek and english definitions, a letter is not a book.

2. Even if John had not read a few of the other epistles (and it cannot be proven either way), God was through inspiring Scripture once John finalized Revelation.

 

[ScottEmerson]

Originally posted by Gunther:
1. Actually, it does refer to all of God's revelation that he had man record in the Scriptures.

At the beginning of Revelation, John said that he was writing a letter to the churches. Then at the end of this "letter", he calls it a "book". As far as I understand both greek and english definitions, a letter is not a book.

Book (or the Greek Biblos) is also used in several other NT books. Matthew calls itself a "book." Mark chronicles that Psalms is a "book." Even still, John specifies which book he is talking about - "THIS prophecy." I am also curious as to why you say that John called his book a "letter." I did a quick KJV search and "letter" is nowhere to be found in Revelation. A quick scan of the first chapter confirms this.

2. Even if John had not read a few of the other epistles (and it cannot be proven either way), God was through inspiring Scripture once John finalized Revelation.

That's a great statement, but ultimately, it lacks any proof.