SavedByGrace
Well-Known Member
and what is your problem with what I have written?
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- Thread starter Alcott
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and what is your problem with what I have written?
unprofitable
Active Member
1 John 3:11 says, "This is the message/commandment that ye have heard from the beginning, that we (the body of Christ) should love one another." vs 14) We (the body of Christ) KNOW (have faith and assurance) we have passed from death unto life because WE love the BRETHREN (one another-1Jn 13:34).
I spent almost 43 years in health care and served at least 3 generations of families. When one of them would pass away, I would often hear from one of the family the sincere and emotional statement, "They are in a better place." This happened so often that it would appear that no one had gone to hell since the time of Christ.
My brother made a profession of faith at a young age but after a while strayed, so to speak. His life spun out of control until he told me he was between and atheist and an agnostic. He was excluded from the church and to my knowledge never darkened the door of a church for the rest of his life nor served the Lord in any way. When he passed away, two pastors were asked to preach his funeral, one a Baptist, the other a methodist. I spoke to the Baptist preacher and warned him of trying to preach my brother into heaven. I used 1 Jn
3:14 as the basis of my statement. I asked him where was my brother's love of the brethren? The Baptist preacher skirted the issue when he preached his funeral. The methodist pastor asked him if he had ever made a profession of faith to which my brother replied he had as a young man. He did not reveal what had happened in his life and the methodist did not further question him. He told my brother he was ok to which my brother said, "I sure hope so." The methodist subsequently preached an entirely different sermon. If I believe the scriptures, I have absolutely NO basis to say he was "saved."
The scriptures clearly state in Matt 17::20, "Wherefore,by their fruits ye SHALL know them." Where were his fruits of righteousness? This verse gives us a standard of knowledge and discernment without which we will never be able to, as Paul, discern false brethren. (II Cor 11:26, Gal 2:4). This also applies to false prophets and false Christs. My brother loved me as his brother and I loved him likewise but he had no love for the brethren and no use for the body of Christ.
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I spent almost 43 years in health care and served at least 3 generations of families. When one of them would pass away, I would often hear from one of the family the sincere and emotional statement, "They are in a better place." This happened so often that it would appear that no one had gone to hell since the time of Christ.
My brother made a profession of faith at a young age but after a while strayed, so to speak. His life spun out of control until he told me he was between and atheist and an agnostic. He was excluded from the church and to my knowledge never darkened the door of a church for the rest of his life nor served the Lord in any way. When he passed away, two pastors were asked to preach his funeral, one a Baptist, the other a methodist. I spoke to the Baptist preacher and warned him of trying to preach my brother into heaven. I used 1 Jn
3:14 as the basis of my statement. I asked him where was my brother's love of the brethren? The Baptist preacher skirted the issue when he preached his funeral. The methodist pastor asked him if he had ever made a profession of faith to which my brother replied he had as a young man. He did not reveal what had happened in his life and the methodist did not further question him. He told my brother he was ok to which my brother said, "I sure hope so." The methodist subsequently preached an entirely different sermon. If I believe the scriptures, I have absolutely NO basis to say he was "saved."
The scriptures clearly state in Matt 17::20, "Wherefore,by their fruits ye SHALL know them." Where were his fruits of righteousness? This verse gives us a standard of knowledge and discernment without which we will never be able to, as Paul, discern false brethren. (II Cor 11:26, Gal 2:4). This also applies to false prophets and false Christs. My brother loved me as his brother and I loved him likewise but he had no love for the brethren and no use for the body of Christ.
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
Sorry for your brother. I do not want to make this personal, because emotions run high.
I will only say that unless you are with someone the moment they die and they are denying the Lord Jesus and blaspheming His name, I really don’t think you can declare them or anyone else saved or unsaved.
peace to you
unprofitable
Active Member
Bro canadyjd,
Thank you for your condolences. He was a very good brother and it broke my heart when he passed away in what I believe was an unregenerate condition.
I am not one to put much stock in deathbed confessions. It seems they are a magic parachute for those who have chosen to live their life like hell, rejected Christ and his people, and now are afraid to die. Paul says in Acts 14:22,...that we through much tribulation/persecition must enter the kingdom of God. He did not even know enough about the Bible to know what to stand for that he would be persecuted.
I will use John 3:16 to a degree as a basis for my belief.
We can say, "...whosoever believeth in him" not only shall not perish but:
1- Will abide in Him (Jn 15:4-7). He did not abide in the body of Christ but was excluded and never came back.
2- Will love him and keep his covenant/commandments. Jn 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:21, says, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and will love him and manifest myself to him. (Eph 3:10) He did not have his commandments (they are the covenant of the church) nor did he keep them. He was not covenantly positioned.
3. Will edify the body of Christ (Eph 4:12, 16, 29) among many others.
These are part of the proofs/fruits of the life of Christ being in a member of the body of Christ. They are the will and work of the Father. Isa 26:12 says," Lord, thou will ordain peace for us, for THOU HAST wrought all our works in us." They are not what gives a man life, they are result of the life of Christ enabling a member to be a functional part of the body. He showed none.
These verses, taken in unison, prevents me from accepting the doctrine of "instant salvation."
This is the grace with purpose spoken of in 2 Tim 1:9.
Thank you for your condolences. He was a very good brother and it broke my heart when he passed away in what I believe was an unregenerate condition.
I am not one to put much stock in deathbed confessions. It seems they are a magic parachute for those who have chosen to live their life like hell, rejected Christ and his people, and now are afraid to die. Paul says in Acts 14:22,...that we through much tribulation/persecition must enter the kingdom of God. He did not even know enough about the Bible to know what to stand for that he would be persecuted.
I will use John 3:16 to a degree as a basis for my belief.
We can say, "...whosoever believeth in him" not only shall not perish but:
1- Will abide in Him (Jn 15:4-7). He did not abide in the body of Christ but was excluded and never came back.
2- Will love him and keep his covenant/commandments. Jn 14:15 says, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." John 14:21, says, "He that hath my commandments and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and will love him and manifest myself to him. (Eph 3:10) He did not have his commandments (they are the covenant of the church) nor did he keep them. He was not covenantly positioned.
3. Will edify the body of Christ (Eph 4:12, 16, 29) among many others.
These are part of the proofs/fruits of the life of Christ being in a member of the body of Christ. They are the will and work of the Father. Isa 26:12 says," Lord, thou will ordain peace for us, for THOU HAST wrought all our works in us." They are not what gives a man life, they are result of the life of Christ enabling a member to be a functional part of the body. He showed none.
These verses, taken in unison, prevents me from accepting the doctrine of "instant salvation."
This is the grace with purpose spoken of in 2 Tim 1:9.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
The phrase “instant salvation” I find interesting. I always saw salvation (a right relationship with God) as instant with faith in Christ and sanctification or “maturity” as a process that follows.
Do you see it differently?
peace to you
unprofitable
Active Member
I use "instant salvation" in the context of easy believeism or a professed salvation without evidence of fruit. The examples I gave come from someone truly made alive and the resulting fruit/works that come from the life of Christ in them that enables them to be a functional member of the body of Christ. We are told by their fruits ye shall know them. (Mt 7:16,20)
If the initial profession of faith is evidence of salvation, how do we account for false brethren. Did they believe they were saved. Yes. Was it a so called false profession? Yes. What was wrong about what they were believing? Christ warned them to make sure that the light in them was not darkness.
Christ promised to gather his people from every nation where they had been scattered and bring them together into his kingdom. (Mt 16:18) The word gospel, when studied in context, is the good news of the kingdom. Christ never redeems someone then leaves them on their own to wander around. He prayed for their unity. (Jn 17:21) Simply put an individual cannot be a kingdom. Teaching salvation as a singular profession in individuality denies this work of Christ. There are simply too many things that an individual cannot do apart from being a member of a body of Christ.
In the end, we must examine what it means to believe in him/believe him.
I do believe that those who truly believe have already been given the life of Christ when they come to that realization and that we grow in grace and knowledge as we mature.
Thank you for your question so that i could attempt to clarify my statement.
This would probably best be discussed under a new thread but I will leave that up to you.
If the initial profession of faith is evidence of salvation, how do we account for false brethren. Did they believe they were saved. Yes. Was it a so called false profession? Yes. What was wrong about what they were believing? Christ warned them to make sure that the light in them was not darkness.
Christ promised to gather his people from every nation where they had been scattered and bring them together into his kingdom. (Mt 16:18) The word gospel, when studied in context, is the good news of the kingdom. Christ never redeems someone then leaves them on their own to wander around. He prayed for their unity. (Jn 17:21) Simply put an individual cannot be a kingdom. Teaching salvation as a singular profession in individuality denies this work of Christ. There are simply too many things that an individual cannot do apart from being a member of a body of Christ.
In the end, we must examine what it means to believe in him/believe him.
I do believe that those who truly believe have already been given the life of Christ when they come to that realization and that we grow in grace and knowledge as we mature.
Thank you for your question so that i could attempt to clarify my statement.
This would probably best be discussed under a new thread but I will leave that up to you.