preacher4truth
Active Member
Trolling so early in your short career here on BB?
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Hardened by God?
- Thread starter preacher4truth
- Start date
Trolling so early in your short career here on BB?
Yes, Moses recorded that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Yes, Moses recorded that Pharoah hardened his own heart.
Both are true. I express this truth by saying that God has declared the terms and circumstances under which hardening will take place.
So, I'm taking both sides of the argument.
This is the issue with Pharaoh.
God's hardening and Pharaoh's hardening of Pharaoh's heart is asymmetrical.
They both did it but they both did it for two very different reasons.
The two are not morally equivalent.
Pharaoh did it for evil.
God did it for the highest and greatest good in the universe- God's glory.
preacher4truth
Active Member
OK. I get PM'ed because I suggested we should open our Bibles before replying. My apologies for assuming that we can talk to one another as iron against iron, as showing we should be Berean and not babies, and could take all that heat.
:tear:
I apologize that my post was so offensive for saying we should open our Scriptures up as I thought I was dealing with ministers. My fault here.
:tear:
I apologize that my post was so offensive for saying we should open our Scriptures up as I thought I was dealing with ministers. My fault here.
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I am very much in agreement with you that PRIDE is very much a factor. Our brothers on the other side of the aisle then respond with, "from where does this pride" or "attitude of rebellion stem"?
Well, it is not so complicated as they would like it to seem. Pharaoh was simply an extremely proud and arrogant person. All you had to do to harden Pharaoh's heart was confront him. Many people are like this, Hitler was like this. He would not listen to his own counsellors many times. He thought he was superior and more intelligent than anyone around him. He believed he could defeat anyone who opposed him. And look at the ruin he brought on his people and country, not unlike Pharaoh.
I believe when the scriptures say God raised Pharaoh up, this is speaking of placing him in a position of great authority. God already knew that Pharoah was incredibly proud and obstinate, and so promoted him to be king of Egypt so he could demonstrate his power to the world.
God could not have made Pharaoh proud and arrogant, because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
When the scriptures say God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it cannot mean that God caused Pharaoh to be proud and obstinate, as God never tempts any man to sin. God simply confronted Pharaoh and knew Pharaoh would resist him.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Well, it is not so complicated as they would like it to seem. Pharaoh was simply an extremely proud and arrogant person. All you had to do to harden Pharaoh's heart was confront him. Many people are like this, Hitler was like this. He would not listen to his own counsellors many times. He thought he was superior and more intelligent than anyone around him. He believed he could defeat anyone who opposed him. And look at the ruin he brought on his people and country, not unlike Pharaoh.
I believe when the scriptures say God raised Pharaoh up, this is speaking of placing him in a position of great authority. God already knew that Pharoah was incredibly proud and obstinate, and so promoted him to be king of Egypt so he could demonstrate his power to the world.
God could not have made Pharaoh proud and arrogant, because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to sin.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
When the scriptures say God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it cannot mean that God caused Pharaoh to be proud and obstinate, as God never tempts any man to sin. God simply confronted Pharaoh and knew Pharaoh would resist him.
I find your arguments, points and logic to be well reasoned and supported. Merry Christmans Winman
Robert Snow
New Member
No. This is another error of those who oppose God's truth.
You can speak and post against God;s truth all you want but i would not recommend it.As long as these verses are in the bible, you place yourself in opposition to the truth of God.
That is the rub my friend. You know us non-Calvinists interpret these verses differently. I am not questioning God's sovereignty, I am questioning the Calvinistic interpretation.
Surely you don't think that only Calvinists have reverence toward God and God's Word!
Well, it is not so complicated as they would like it to seem. Pharaoh was simply an extremely proud and arrogant person. All you had to do to harden Pharaoh's heart was confront him.
When the scriptures say God hardened Pharaoh's heart, it cannot mean that God caused Pharaoh to be proud and obstinate, as God never tempts any man to sin. God simply confronted Pharaoh and knew Pharaoh would resist him.
What caused Pharaoh to be an extremely arrogant and proud person?
Was he born that way?
What caused him to be that way?
quantumfaith
Active Member
That is the rub my friend. You know us non-Calvinists interpret these verses differently. I am not questioning God's sovereignty, I am questioning the Calvinistic interpretation.
Surely you don't think that only Calvinists have reverence toward God and God's Word!
Robert, that is often the "feeling" I get from the calvinist brethren. That because we see God exercising his sovereignty differently, we are taking a diminished view of God himself.
Trolling? I answered a question and asked you one, sorry.Trolling so early in your short career here on BB?
What caused Pharaoh to be an extremely arrogant and proud person?
Was he born that way?
What caused him to be that way?
Well, it wasn't God, because the scriptures say God never tempts any man to evil.
James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
The scriptures say we sin when we are drawn away of our own lusts, and enticed.
I doubt Pharaoh was born stubborn and arrogant, he was born a baby just like all others. However, he was taught early on that he was divine (the Egyptians believed the Pharaohs were descended from gods) and came to believe himself superior to others. He was probably spoiled and got everything he wanted. I am sure he was educated in the best schools they had and came to believe he was far more intelligent than most people.
Do you have kids? I mean, this is not difficult to figure out. If you tell a child they are better than everyone else, give them everything they want, and tolerate tantrums, you are going to have a very spoiled, proud and arrogant child. This is not rocket science here.
Tom Butler
New Member
I'm sorta confused.
The scriptures say, more than once in Exodus, that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Does that mean he really didn't harden Pharoah's heart, because to do so would constitute tempting Pharoah to evil?
So, if God's hardening Pharoah's heart means God didn't harden Pharoah's heart, just what does it mean?
This raises another question.
Paul, in Romans 1:28 says God "gave him over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;"
My understanding is that God, by giving one over to a reprobate mind, makes it impossible for that man ever to be saved. In other words, God hardens his heart, so that he not only won't want to be saved, but also can't want to be saved.
Why is it okay for God to give one over to a reprobate mind, but not to harden Pharoah's heart?
The scriptures say, more than once in Exodus, that God hardened Pharoah's heart.
Does that mean he really didn't harden Pharoah's heart, because to do so would constitute tempting Pharoah to evil?
So, if God's hardening Pharoah's heart means God didn't harden Pharoah's heart, just what does it mean?
This raises another question.
Paul, in Romans 1:28 says God "gave him over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting;"
My understanding is that God, by giving one over to a reprobate mind, makes it impossible for that man ever to be saved. In other words, God hardens his heart, so that he not only won't want to be saved, but also can't want to be saved.
Why is it okay for God to give one over to a reprobate mind, but not to harden Pharoah's heart?
I see a gap in thoughts here. At least, from my perspective, it seems that people see the hardening of Pharoahs heart the same thing as tempting someone to be evil.
They aren't the same thing.
Saying "no" to Moses is not necessarily and evil act. It is merely a stubborn one. If being stubborn in response to someone's request is evil, then we have a real problem.
They aren't the same thing.
Saying "no" to Moses is not necessarily and evil act. It is merely a stubborn one. If being stubborn in response to someone's request is evil, then we have a real problem.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Exodus 3:19
But I know that the King of Eqypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
But I know that the King of Eqypt will not let you go unless a mighty hand compels him.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Message must go out
Sometimes we see some harsh things going on when God gives men over to their own evil desires. If hardening of the heart was a permanent thing then God would not have to over and over again harden his heart. We can change, but if we don't God will give us over to our own evil desire.
God can brings things around without going against the will of man.
God didn't change the will of Jonah, but changed the circumstances around him. Jonah changed his own will. We might of seen it horrible, but God will do what ever it takes that the message go out.
Horrible things even happen to Godly man for the will of God. Rains falls on everyone. God could not of given the men over to their own evil desires to stone Stephen.
During a time the Gospel wasn't going out it was stuck in one area. Then we have Stephen, he went through a horrible death, but because of this it made the people spread out.
This shows us how important Romans 10 is to God and it should be with us.
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
I love this story, it shows what God didn't want, but God gave His people over to their own desire.
1 Samuel 8
Israel Asks for a King
1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[Traditionally judges] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[Traditionally judge; also in verses 6 and 20] us, such as all the other nations have.”
6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[Septuagint; Hebrew young men] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”
Sometimes we see some harsh things going on when God gives men over to their own evil desires. If hardening of the heart was a permanent thing then God would not have to over and over again harden his heart. We can change, but if we don't God will give us over to our own evil desire.
God can brings things around without going against the will of man.
God didn't change the will of Jonah, but changed the circumstances around him. Jonah changed his own will. We might of seen it horrible, but God will do what ever it takes that the message go out.
Horrible things even happen to Godly man for the will of God. Rains falls on everyone. God could not of given the men over to their own evil desires to stone Stephen.
During a time the Gospel wasn't going out it was stuck in one area. Then we have Stephen, he went through a horrible death, but because of this it made the people spread out.
This shows us how important Romans 10 is to God and it should be with us.
Romans 10:
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”[Isaiah 52:7]
I love this story, it shows what God didn't want, but God gave His people over to their own desire.
1 Samuel 8
Israel Asks for a King
1 When Samuel grew old, he appointed his sons as Israel’s leaders.[Traditionally judges] 2 The name of his firstborn was Joel and the name of his second was Abijah, and they served at Beersheba. 3 But his sons did not follow his ways. They turned aside after dishonest gain and accepted bribes and perverted justice.
4 So all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah. 5 They said to him, “You are old, and your sons do not follow your ways; now appoint a king to lead[Traditionally judge; also in verses 6 and 20] us, such as all the other nations have.”
6 But when they said, “Give us a king to lead us,” this displeased Samuel; so he prayed to the LORD. 7 And the LORD told him: “Listen to all that the people are saying to you; it is not you they have rejected, but they have rejected me as their king. 8 As they have done from the day I brought them up out of Egypt until this day, forsaking me and serving other gods, so they are doing to you. 9 Now listen to them; but warn them solemnly and let them know what the king who will reign over them will claim as his rights.”
10 Samuel told all the words of the LORD to the people who were asking him for a king. 11 He said, “This is what the king who will reign over you will claim as his rights: He will take your sons and make them serve with his chariots and horses, and they will run in front of his chariots. 12 Some he will assign to be commanders of thousands and commanders of fifties, and others to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and still others to make weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. 13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers and cooks and bakers. 14 He will take the best of your fields and vineyards and olive groves and give them to his attendants. 15 He will take a tenth of your grain and of your vintage and give it to his officials and attendants. 16 Your male and female servants and the best of your cattle[Septuagint; Hebrew young men] and donkeys he will take for his own use. 17 He will take a tenth of your flocks, and you yourselves will become his slaves. 18 When that day comes, you will cry out for relief from the king you have chosen, but the LORD will not answer you in that day.”
19 But the people refused to listen to Samuel. “No!” they said. “We want a king over us. 20 Then we will be like all the other nations, with a king to lead us and to go out before us and fight our battles.”
21 When Samuel heard all that the people said, he repeated it before the LORD. 22 The LORD answered, “Listen to them and give them a king.”
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quantumfaith
Active Member
God giving a person over to a reprobate mind simply means God works with a person to bring them to repentance. But with some people it becomes obvious they will never repent, and so God ceases to any longer strive with them.
I agree with you Winman. "gives them over" sure seems to communicate that meaning to me. But rest assured, there is certain to be some "dangling participle" in the Greek that I just "refuse" to understand.