Harry Potter - Saint or Sinner?

[Marcia]

Texas Sky, it doesn't matter what JKR believes. That has nothing to do with it.

And fyi, you can practice the occult without calling on gods or spirits. I did astrology for over 8 yrs. and never called on "gods" (I believed in the New Age God, not gods) and I did not call on spirits when doing astrology or numerology or tarot.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Out of pure noseyness, how'd you meet your spirit guide if you never called on the spirits?

Did you not simply assume that it was there even while you were doing astrology and etc?

Sorry that is totally off topic and you can reply to it or not at your pleasue.

I do have a response for you about your last two or so posts, but no time this morning to present it coherently. I'll be back around with it some time much much later in the day.

 

[donnA]

I think the question should be when it comes to the witch craft being fictional,
Do Harry and his friends believe they are using witch craft? Is it being presented as witch craft?

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by TexasSky:
P S Rowling's a professed Christian and a professed Presbyterian member of the Church of Scotland.

Now - if you want to debate whether Presyterians are Christian or not - you need another board.

There is less "evil" and less darkness in the Harry Potter books than in the Tolkein books. There are no "false gods" in the Potter books.

Yet - people accept that Tolkein was "okay" because and Rowlings is not.

So shes a prefessed christian, does that make whatever she writes ok?

 

[Petrel]

Tolkien was Anglican. He was close friends with C. S. Lewis. While his religious themes are more diguised, you can definitely see a loving Creator God, the fallen "angel" opposing him, and the fall of mankind. The books have a definite morality, arguing for forgiveness, self-control, persistance, and self-sacrifice. And they definitely honor chastity, as Aragorn waited over 50 years for Arwen!

If a Christian writes a novel set in a fictional world, are we required to transplant the incarnation, crucifixion, etc. into it?

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by menageriekeeper:
Out of pure noseyness, how'd you meet your spirit guide if you never called on the spirits?

Did you not simply assume that it was there even while you were doing astrology and etc?

I was "introduced" to my spirit guide via a guided visualization/meditation in a course called Inner Light Consciousness. At that time, I had heard of spirit guides but did not know much about them.

Yes, I usually assumed he was with me when I did astrology, but I did not call on him. Also, I did not usually think of him while doing charts. When I felt guided through the charts, I just went with it and only thought of it later as coming from the guide (who was called a spiritual master), my intuition, or the "energy" of the chart drawing me in. I never knew nor cared which it was.

Also, there are many astrologers and psychics who do not claim to have guides. It is actually more common for psychics to call on guides in doing a reading. They may do this aloud or silently. But not all do this.

The occult can be easily practiced without calling on spirits or gods -- you just do it.

 

[donnA]

Originally posted by donnA:
I think the question should be when it comes to the witch craft being fictional,
Do Harry and his friends believe they are using witch craft? Is it being presented as witch craft?

 

[mioque]

Tolkien was Roman Catholic, C.S. Lewis was Anglican.

 

[Petrel]

Whatever! I always get that wrong. *hammers fact into head*

donnA, I don't think that the magic in the Harry Potter books is like the witchcraft practiced by Wiccans and pagans. In the books it is a genetic trait that gives a person the innate ability to use magic. It doesn't seem that this ability can be lost nor can someone who doesn't have it gain it. The spells that are done depend upon mechanistic details such as the proper wand technique and speaking the right pseudo-latin word. There is nothing sacred about the magic. While ghosts exist, Rowling has not included demons, and the magic that is executed doesn't involve any demonic help.

There are two New Age philosophies/religions that may involve magic. Those are Wicca and pagan belief.

From my understanding pagans believe in the existence of nature spirits, and some a variety of historical gods and demi-gods. Pagans aren't so much into spells. Some pagans may be wiccan. There's a lot of overlap between the two.

Wiccans generally believe in nature spirits, although they may acknowledge a historical god or goddess as a manifestation of that spirit. According to Wicca, a wiccan's spells rely on her ability to channel the spiritual energy of the natural world towards some end, and anyone can learn how to do this. Wicca is a religion, and during a coven meeting the meeting-place is considered consecrated.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Petrel:

I don't think that the magic in the Harry Potter books is like the witchcraft practiced by Wiccans and pagans. In the books it is a genetic trait that gives a person the innate ability to use magic. It doesn't seem that this ability can be lost nor can someone who doesn't have it gain it.

HP is not about the magic or modern religion of Witchraft or Wicca, which is an earth-based nature religion. It's more about sorcery magic, which is another form of magic. I make this point in my article on the first HP book. I've had witches and occultists tell me they are glad I am making that distinction. However, there are witches who believe they are "natural" witches, born with the power. This is what the 1996 movie "The Craft" was about. That movie was responsible for a lot of girls getting involved in witchcraft. A witch from the Covenant of the Goddess was a consultant on the set and gave the 4 main actresses books on witchcraft to read.

The spells that are done depend upon mechanistic details such as the proper wand technique and speaking the right pseudo-latin word.

Spells do generally depend on mechanistic details. Incantations must be spoken properly. Even though HP leaves out references to spiritual things, there are references to actual occult practices such as divination, using magical potions, numerology, etc. As I stated before, you do not have to believe anything to do the occult.
And since when are spells okay if no spirit is called on or mentioned? Even if Harry's spells are not like real spells, the idea of casting spells is there and it's made enticing.

There are two New Age philosophies/religions that may involve magic. Those are Wicca and pagan belief.

Wicca and Paganism are not New Age; their philosophies are different from the transcendent New Age beliefs. Neopagan beliefs are focused on the earth and the here and now. Some Wiccans may blend in New Age beliefs, but the essential Wiccan philosophy is not New Age by nature.

Pagans aren't so much into spells. Some pagans may be wiccan. There's a lot of overlap between the two.

Wiccan are very much into spells, though they may say they are not. They like to make their beliefs sound as spiritual and good as possible. Neopagans who are not Wiccans may not be into spells as much as Wiccans, but it depends. Some are, some aren't. They are all into rituals and nature.

My article on Witchcraft, Wicca, and Neopaganism, which I first wrote in 1995:
http://cana.userworld.com/cana_wicca.html

 

[Petrel]

Thanks for the clarification.

I've been wondering, do you think that demons are involved at all times in Wicca or in just certain cases and occasions, mostly letting people just muddle their way along under their own steam? And do you think you really had a spirit guide that was a demon (if that's not too personal)?

 

[Johnv]

Wicca as it exists today is has no connection to wicca of thousands of years ago. Today it's a contrived artificial religion that has no basis in reality, spiritual or otherwise. One will conjure up more spirits by eating a fortune cookie than practicing contemporary wicca.

Much of what we attribute to witches and witchcraft actually stem from medieval Christian folklore. Black hats, brooksticks, cauldrens, wands, rhyming spells, old women with warts on their noses, etc, are all contrived inventions, with no basis in the ancient religion of wicca practiced in Northern Europe long before the arrival of Christianity.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Johnv:
Wicca as it exists today is has no connection to wicca of thousands of years ago. Today it's a contrived artificial religion that has no basis in reality, spiritual or otherwise. One will conjure up more spirits by eating a fortune cookie than practicing contemporary wicca.

Much of what we attribute to witches and witchcraft actually stem from medieval Christian folklore. Black hats, brooksticks, cauldrens, wands, rhyming spells, old women with warts on their noses, etc, are all contrived inventions, with no basis in the ancient religion of wicca practiced in Northern Europe long before the arrival of Christianity.

Wicca actually was invented by Gerald Gardner in the late 1940's in England; it did not exist before then. However, he claimed to be reviving an ancient religion. It is true though that some Wiccans and Pagans are polytheistic like the ancient Pagans, and they also have sexual rites (as they did in Corinth and elsewhere). There are other parallels though a lot of differences as well.

The truth is that Wiccans do make contact with spirits, whether they intend to or not. It is quite common for them to see spirits or have them following them around. Some of them are afraid of this and others try to figure out spells to make them go away. Since Wiccans are worshiping false gods or the Goddess, they are making contact with demons, even though they don't believe in them. Some Wiccans do acknowledge evil spirits.

 

[Marcia]

Originally posted by Petrel:
Thanks for the clarification.

I've been wondering, do you think that demons are involved at all times in Wicca or in just certain cases and occasions, mostly letting people just muddle their way along under their own steam? And do you think you really had a spirit guide that was a demon (if that's not too personal)?

See my post above responding to JohnV.

Yes, I had a spirit guide. I always felt his presence and felt protected by him. I did not realize he was evil until the day I went forward to publicly proclaim my faith in Christ, about 3 mos. after being saved. He was very angry that day and I told him to go away. When I was saved, I didn't think about him nor did I realize the kind of evil I had been involved in. It took over a year for me to realize all I had been doing and why it was wrong. I knew it was wrong, just didn't understand what evil was since I had not believed in evil for so long. God was very patient with me.

 

[Petrel]

That's frightening. A friend once told me of a woman he knew who was wiccan and got saved. She began having these horrible nightmares that lasted until she went through her house and threw out every last Wicca-related object. Then I guess either God said Enough! or they decided it was a waste of time, and the nightmares stopped.

I wonder sometimes whether our minds are open books to demons or whether they're limited in what they can find out about us. It's frightening to think how close we are to the supernatural, protected only by God and the demons' apparent current goal in developed nations of trying to hide their existance.

 

[Marcia]

I don't think our minds are open books to demons. However, demons can observe us to the extent God allows them. But unbelievers are more vulnerable.

This is a good site -- it's the site of a friend, ex-witch Kathi Sharpe:
http://www.exwitch.org/cms/