Has anyone ever heard anything like this.

[ashleysdad]

This morning at my church we started a study on angels. During the message it was stated that Jesus was a created being that God elevated to the position of being the savior. It was actually stated that Jesus was an angel. Later in the message it was stated that when Lucifer rebelled and was cast out from Heaven that this was when Jesus stepped into the gap created by the fall of Lucifer and volunteered to humble himself and take on flesh and pay the price for our sin. Two questions. 1: has anyone ever heard anything like this before? (excluding the J.W.s) and 2: What is the correct step from here? There was absolutely no misunderstanding what was being said, it was repeated and made very clear so requesting a meeting to gain clarification for a misunderstanding is not needed as there was no misunderstanding. Obviously this is heresy and as a father and husband I cannot keep my family exposed to this. Should I request a meeting with just the pastor? Should I request a meeting with the pastor and the deacons? Short of the pastor publicly recanting this statement, leaving this church is a forgone conclusion. I just want to make sure I do things the right way. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

 

[Salty]

ad,

This sounds like heresy to me!

John 1:1 - In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Of course the Word is Jesus

Yes, I would sit down with the pastor and get this straighten out. If that is not effective continue with Matt 18:16 and go with two or three witnesses. If the pastor does not recant - it would be time to call a special business meeting. If need be, contact the Director of Missions for your Assocation.
Otherwise, you are in our prayers.

salty

 

[annsni]

Honestly, I'd run from that church but before I did, I would have a sit down with the pastor. That is absolute heresy and contradicts Jesus' own words in John 8:58. We can see clearly from verse 59 what the deep ramifications of these words were - that Jesus was claiming to be God. If your pastor truly taught and believes that Jesus was a created being - an angel - and 'stepped up' into being the Savior after Lucifer was tossed out, then I would very quickly leave that church and never look back. Also, if it were a part of an association, I'd let the higher-ups know about that as well.

 

[annsni]

Just read your post to my husband and he said that if you haven't been there long, leave but if there is a legacy of your family there (you are established at that church and stuff), write a letter laying out what you see to be the error and the Scripture to support it and then see what the response is.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I could be wrong but I believe that sounds more like Mormon theology than Baptist theology.

 

[ashleysdad]

ad,

This sounds like heresy to me!

John 1:1 - In the begining was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Of course the Word is Jesus

Yes, I would sit down with the pastor and get this straighten out. If that is not effective continue with Matt 18:16 and go with two or three witnesses. If the pastor does not recant - it would be time to call a special business meeting. If need be, contact the Director of Missions for your Assocation.
Otherwise, you are in our prayers.

salty

I agree with the church discipline route, (not real optimistic about that). Almost all of the deacons were in the sanctuary this morning. Just curious, could the DOM do anything here? I have been in this church (SBC) for about 7 years (was IFB before that).

 

[ashleysdad]

Just read your post to my husband and he said that if you haven't been there long, leave but if there is a legacy of your family there (you are established at that church and stuff), write a letter laying out what you see to be the error and the Scripture to support it and then see what the response is.

We have been in this church for seven years so are kind of established. There have been things in the past that we have disagreed with but they were relatively minor (differing views on creation and end times mainly). This though is obviously different.

 

[ashleysdad]

I could be wrong but I believe that sounds more like Mormon theology than Baptist theology.

I was thinking some kind of J.W./Mormon hybrid.

 

[Ryan.Samples]

Yes, I would sit down with the pastor and get this straighten out. If that is not effective continue with Matt 18:16 and go with two or three witnesses. If the pastor does not recant - it would be time to call a special business meeting. If need be, contact the Director of Missions for your Assocation.
Otherwise, you are in our prayers.

salty

Concur. This guy needs to explain exactly where he got this information and then he needs to understand why it is inaccurate. Then he needs to publicly recant. If he won't listen to you, call in others to rebuke him. If he still refuses, then you follow with the business meeting. I do not see any biblical precedent for your family just up and leaving the church before you try to correct this heinous error. If the pastor refuses to recant and the church refuses to expel him, I would suggest you finally have the warrant to leave the church. Until that time, I would strongly urge you to remain there and fight the good fight. Imagine what would happen to that church if everyone who knew better simply left without trying to correct this error...!

I agree that an associational leader might prove an excellent "second or third" witness to bring to bear on the problem, should the pastor refuse to hear you out or rejects your rebuke.

 

[Salty]

I agree with the church discipline route, (not real optimistic about that). Almost all of the deacons were in the sanctuary this morning. Just curious, could the DOM do anything here? I have been in this church (SBC) for about 7 years (was IFB before that).

The DOM cannot make the church do anything - he is more of an adviser. In the event you pastor leaves the DOM should be aware should he be asked to be a reference for this heretic, I mean pastor.

Since you have been there seven years, I would assume you carry some voice in the church. I believe you should do a Barney Fife - ie "Nip it in the bud". Leaving at this point, should be a last resort.

Just curious - what is the normal Sunday Morning attendance at your church.

Salty

PS - you are still a member of an independent Baptist church (notice the small "i")!

 

[Ryan.Samples]

I was thinking some kind of J.W./Mormon hybrid.

It smells like Mormon theology but if that's where he got it from, he didn't even get that right. They teach that Satan fell after Jesus agreed to assume the messianic role. There was a big meeting among all the created beings and God the Father asked who would go be the messiah for the world. Satan volunteered, but said he would do it for the glory. Jesus then volunteered and said, he would do it for God's glory. God therefore picked Jesus over Satan, which led to Satan openly warring with God. This resulted in Satan's rebellion.

So it sounds most like Mormon doctrine. It's obviously wrong either way. Didn't want to jump off topic, just wanted to drop a footnote.

Please keep us informed, as this kind of thing happens more often than many people realize and I fear we botch our responses far too often. In short, your church's problem may ultimately prove a good lesson for other churches.

 

[Salty]

Please keep us informed, as this kind of thing happens more often than many people realize and I fear we botch our responses far too often. In short, your church's problem may ultimately prove a good lesson for other churches.

Excellent advice:thumbs:

 

[Aaron]

This morning at my church we started a study on angels. During the message it was stated that Jesus was a created being that God elevated to the position of being the savior. It was actually stated that Jesus was an angel. Later in the message it was stated that when Lucifer rebelled and was cast out from Heaven that this was when Jesus stepped into the gap created by the fall of Lucifer and volunteered to humble himself and take on flesh and pay the price for our sin. Two questions. 1: has anyone ever heard anything like this before? (excluding the J.W.s) and 2: What is the correct step from here? There was absolutely no misunderstanding what was being said, it was repeated and made very clear so requesting a meeting to gain clarification for a misunderstanding is not needed as there was no misunderstanding. Obviously this is heresy and as a father and husband I cannot keep my family exposed to this. Should I request a meeting with just the pastor? Should I request a meeting with the pastor and the deacons? Short of the pastor publicly recanting this statement, leaving this church is a forgone conclusion. I just want to make sure I do things the right way. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Are you sure that was the position being espoused, or was it a position simply being described as an errant position. It's hard for me to imagine any Baptist (or any orthodox Christian church for that matter) even coming close to that. Which Scriptures were being discussed?

Do you go to church with the individual calling himself "awaken"?

 

[blackbird]

This morning at my church we started a study on angels. During the message it was stated that Jesus was a created being that God elevated to the position of being the savior. It was actually stated that Jesus was an angel. Later in the message it was stated that when Lucifer rebelled and was cast out from Heaven that this was when Jesus stepped into the gap created by the fall of Lucifer and volunteered to humble himself and take on flesh and pay the price for our sin. Two questions. 1: has anyone ever heard anything like this before? (excluding the J.W.s) and 2: What is the correct step from here? There was absolutely no misunderstanding what was being said, it was repeated and made very clear so requesting a meeting to gain clarification for a misunderstanding is not needed as there was no misunderstanding. Obviously this is heresy and as a father and husband I cannot keep my family exposed to this. Should I request a meeting with just the pastor? Should I request a meeting with the pastor and the deacons? Short of the pastor publicly recanting this statement, leaving this church is a forgone conclusion. I just want to make sure I do things the right way. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Think about this-----perhaps----perhaps---just for a second there--your mind got sidetracked some sort of way(I know mine does) and you didn't hear the preacher say----"And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe . . . that Jesus Christ was a created being . . . " Maybe it wasn't made clear to you some sort of way------

just tryin' to throw a blanket over a fire for ya before it turns into an inferno

 

[saturneptune]

Go somewhere that teaches Jesus is God, Creator, Savior and our only hope. That goes beyond theological differences on this board. You need to run from that building at a rapid speed. Even Catholics do not believe such nonsense. It sounds like Mormon.

 

[HAMel]

"Let us create man in our own image..."

Where have I run across that before..., humm?

 

[annsni]

Think about this-----perhaps----perhaps---just for a second there--your mind got sidetracked some sort of way(I know mine does) and you didn't hear the preacher say----"And the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints believe . . . that Jesus Christ was a created being . . . " Maybe it wasn't made clear to you some sort of way------

just tryin' to throw a blanket over a fire for ya before it turns into an inferno

But then doesn't a pastor say "But we know that this is error according to Scripture because Scripture tells us..."

 

[Oldtimer]

I agree with the church discipline route, (not real optimistic about that). Almost all of the deacons were in the sanctuary this morning. Just curious, could the DOM do anything here? I have been in this church (SBC) for about 7 years (was IFB before that).

A bit of clarification, please, if you don't mind?

Who made the statements referenced in your OP? Were they made by the pastor, a deacon, SS teacher, guest speaker, etc.?

Is this particular study using materials produced by a 3rd party source? If so, is it possible those statements will be refuted later in the lesson plan?

Since you mentioned being in your church for about 7 years, is this an "out of the blue" situation or have you heard similar things before, that went unchallenged or were not quietly resolved? (A person no longer teaching a SS class is an example of the latter.)

Do you know, for fact, that the deacons haven't already started taking actions if the "whole story" warrents them to be taken? Have you given them enough time to carry through on their responsibilities, first?

One of the reasons I'm asking is because of a situation that happened in our church. A young man, in study to become a pastor, wanted to teach and preach at our church. He was given the opportunity. All I can say further is that he will not be given that opportunity again at this stage of his spiritual growth.

As lay persons in a church, isn't one of our responsbilities to allow church leadership the time and opportunity to resolve, and if necessary, refute a "situation" before the congregation? If they don't, then act upon our further responsibilities in accordance with church policy, the scriptures, and with the guidance of the Holy Spirit?

 

[kyredneck]

IMO you owe it to the Church of Christ to take the matter to the pastor and/or deacons. They may not even be aware that such things are being taught or believed within the assembly.

 

[12strings]

I agree with the church discipline route, (not real optimistic about that). Almost all of the deacons were in the sanctuary this morning. Just curious, could the DOM do anything here? I have been in this church (SBC) for about 7 years (was IFB before that).

I agree it makes a difference about WHO said these things. IF it was the pastor, and he really believes it and didn't just get confused...then you should definitely plan on leaving if personal steps do not set it right...