What is the reciticism rate of tactics like that I wonder?
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Has Fundamentalism Lost the Gospel?
- Thread starter Rhetorician
- Start date
And that "not trying to deceive" seems clear to me. One can be badly mistaken without any intent to deceive; ask any weather forecaster.
IMO, the affirmative responses given at camp reflected a grave misunderstanding of salvation. Later, by God's grace, Salty received Christ as personal Savior. The "head knowledge", knowing about Christ (even Satan knows about Christ), became "heart knowledge", true faith in the finished work of the Savior. (This is based on Salty's posts, not on any real knowledge on my part.)
I think what he is saying is that he had intellectual assent to the Gospel and he did Christian things, but he never actually placed his trust and faith in that Gospel.
Faith is a triangle, 1 side is understanding the Gospel, another side is agreeing with that Gospel and the 3rd side is a decision to repent from what you are trusting in, and to place your trust and faith in that Gospel.
There is a huge difference between understanding the Gospel and placing your hope and confidence in that Gospel.
I mean what child who goes to a church from a young age doesn't believe Jesus died for their sins? Children believe everything they are told, but just because a child "believes" Jesus died for their sins doesn't mean they actually are putting their faith and trust in the fact that Jesus died for their sins.
It's the difference between believing George Washington is the first president of the United States, and believing that Your parents will feed you and take care of you. One is simple belief of facts, the other is actual dependance.
But how do belief (assent to) and trust differ? That is what I am trying to find out. He said he believed he was saved, but then believed he wasn't saved. What was it that changed?
I disagree. Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. It is the confidence one has that the Gospel (He died for our sins, was buried, and rose again on our behalf) is true.
What is the difference?
So, again, what is the difference between belief and faith?
As James asserted: 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
Saving faith is a living faith in our Lord Jesus Christ as our God & Saviour which puts that belief into practice.
Countless lost sinners believe Jesus died for them.
To whom is that a reply? Who has said "Salvation is by works?"
So are you going to say if someone believes George Washington was the first president, that it means they have faith in George Washington? There is a huge difference between those two concepts. Many sinners believe Jesus died on the cross, but they do not have faith in that for their salvation.
I'll give you a perfect example, my father says he as "accepted Jesus as my savior" and that he believes "Jesus died on the cross for me"... however he also says that he is a "good soul" and a "good person", Me and my Dad got into a heated conversation when I explained to him that all his righteousness is as filthy rags in God's eyes, he said "so your telling me I have to humble myself before God and admit I am wicked and not good? No I am not doing that I am a good soul".
Does he really believe the Gospel the bible way is he really putting his hope in Jesus Christ? There are many people that use gospel terminology and give mental assent to certain aspects of the gospel of Jesus Christ, but very few who have put their hope and trust in Christ. Just like many believe George Washington was the first president of the U.S., but I know of no-one who is putting their trust and confidence in George Washington. So many do the same with the Gospel of Jesus Christ.
Consider what Vincent's Word Studies has to say about Hebrews 12:1:
"Faith (πίστις)
Without the article, indicating that it is treated in its abstract conception, and not merely as Christian faith. It is important that the preliminary definition should be clearly understood, since the following examples illustrate it. The key is furnished by Heb 11:27, as seeing him who isinvisible. Faith apprehends as a real fact what is not revealed to the senses. It rests on that fact, acts upon it, and is upheld by it in the face of all that seems to contradict it. Faith is a real seeing. See Introduction, p. 363."
and see Gill on the passage:
" The "faith" here spoken of is not a mere moral virtue, which is a branch of the law; nor a bare assent to anything revealed, declared, and affirmed in the Gospel; nor a faith of doing miracles; nor an implicit one; nor a mere profession of faith, which sometimes is but temporary; nor the word or doctrine of faith; but that which is made mention of in the preceding chapter, by which the just man lives, and which has the salvation of the soul annexed to it: and it does not so much design any particular branch, or act of faith, but as that in general respects the various promises, and blessings of grace; and it chiefly regards the faith of Old Testament saints, though that, as to its nature, object, and acts, is the same with the faith of New Testament ones; and is a firm persuasion of the power, faithfulness, and love of God in Christ, and of interest therein, and in all special blessings: it is described as "the substance of things hoped for"; and which, in general, are things unseen, and as yet not enjoyed; future, and yet to come;"
I don't believe he is teaching James 2:26 teaches works, perhaps you could explain to use what you think the meaning of James 2:26 is? How do you reconcile James chapter 2 with Romans chapter 4?
I believe it is Martin Luther that said "faith alone saves, but the faith that saves is not alone"
Read James 2:18. It will clear up a lot of confusion.
You've misunderstood the discussion regarding Salty's experience - you are implying that despite his testimony of moving from a general belief in the Gospel truths to a living faith in Christ, that he was saved by that general belief = saving faith.
"We" are maintaining that a general belief does not give salvation. Saving faith has real spiritual evidence. Saving faith is LIFE, eternal life.
General belief leaves sinners dead in sins, with a Pharisaic testimony.
Except he never said that. I asked him what was different and he refused to answer.
Selected from the thread -
If you don't understand what Salty was saying perhaps you should question your own salvation.
John writes about deceiving ourselves - 1J1 - but worse deception is by those who give assurance based on a decision & the salvation prayer. That leaves lost sinners believing they are saved.
Many think that they were "saved", due to being water baptized, confirmed, membering in a church, pray and read the Bible, and yet have not yet be born again!
Also many who have been really saved, but have been convinced that only perfect christians are the saved ones, so they keep doubting being really saved due to still having to deal with sin issues...
There are some really saved who still have real doubts, correct?
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
Only because of walking in the flesh. If we remain in the Spirit we have confidence in God. Doubt = sin.
IF they believed that Jesus died in their place, and that God raised Him from the dead, and their only hope would be in Him, are they not saved?
I think some have doubts due to being in a church that teaches one can be lost, and so concerned that not living 'well enough" to keep saved!
1689Dave
Well-Known Member
I think you are right about the situations where people place faith in their faith, and not directly in Christ. But once they hear the truth, they will find great relief.
Do they believe the Gospel? That Christ died on the cross for their sins, was buried, and rose again for their justification?
I have never claimed otherwise. The devils also believe, and tremble.
I have never claimed otherwise. (Although I have a little different view of the cliche "Saving Faith." Faith does not save. Grace saves. Faith is merely the conduit.)
I have never claimed otherwise.
First of all I didn't accuse him of lying. I asked if, when he was lost but claiming to be saved, was he being untruthful or if something else was going on.
And I didn't question Salty's salvation. He did. He said he was lost while claiming to be saved. I tend to think what he lacked was not salvation, but assurance of salvation.
And personally I think the "head knowledge" verses "heart knowledge" dichotomy is a cop out. What exactly does that mean (which was another question I asked)?
We know things with our heads and feel things (metaphorically) with our hearts. But salvation is not based on either knowledge nor feeling. It is based on the sacrifice of Christ resulting in our being born again. I have three grandsons. None of them have ever questioned the fact they were born. It seems self evident. And to me salvation is also self evident. If we believe Christ died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again for our justification, we are saved. It seems self evident to me. What must we add to that to be "really" saved? In fact it was Salty who said (and you quoted him) "I finally realized I had not ever been truly saved." I am still looking for the difference between "truly saved" and "untruly saved" in those who believe (accept, have faith in) Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures, that He was buried, and that He rose again from the dead on the third day for our justification. So far, no takers.
