Has God made the Future "Fixed" So that he Cannot Undo it?

[Tom Butler]

Scriptures that are subject to more than one interpretation may be interpreted in the light of clearer scripture dealing with the same issue.

For instance, against those passages which Crabtownboy quoted is this one:
I Samuel 15:29

He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

Others may find a way, but I can't see how this verse may be interpreted any other way than what it says. It is clear and umistakable, in my view.

If this is the case, those those verses which speak of God's "repenting" or "changing his mind" must be interpreted in a way that resolves what appears to be a conflict.

I Sam 15:29 says God is not a man, so he doesn't think like a man. When we repent or change our mind, we know what we mean.

When we say God changes His will, we more accurately mean God "wills a change." Nobody really thinks God is surprised when humans change their behavior in the face of God's threatened judgment. In fact, that threat may be the means God uses to bring about a change in us.

I think such words describing God as "repenting" or "regretting" are anthropomorphisms to some extent.

 

[freeatlast]

Scriptures that are subject to more than one interpretation may be interpreted in the light of clearer scripture dealing with the same issue.

For instance, against those passages which Crabtownboy quoted is this one:
I Samuel 15:29
Others may find a way, but I can't see how this verse may be interpreted any other way than what it says. It is clear and umistakable, in my view.

If this is the case, those those verses which speak of God's "repenting" or "changing his mind" must be interpreted in a way that resolves what appears to be a conflict.

I Sam 15:29 says God is not a man, so he doesn't think like a man. When we repent or change our mind, we know what we mean.

When we say God changes His will, we more accurately mean God "wills a change." Nobody really thinks God is surprised when humans change their behavior in the face of God's threatened judgment. In fact, that threat may be the means God uses to bring about a change in us.

I think such words describing God as "repenting" or "regretting" are anthropomorphisms to some extent.

Tom that is interesting but it does raise even more questions. If He is "willing a change" then doesn't He have to change His mind to get to that point? Otherwise wouldn't He be the One who perpetrated the event to fail in the first place?
When we read to following passages how do we say of God that He is "willing a change" without regret or a change of mind?;

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

 

[kyredneck]

.....I think such words describing God as "repenting" or "regretting" are anthropomorphisms to some extent.

Agree!

an·thro·po·mor·phism/ˌanTHrəpəˈmôrˌfizəm/Noun: The attribution of human characteristics or behavior to a god, animal, or object.
http://www.google.com/search?source...T4DKUS_enUS273US273&q=define+anthropomorphism


.......and more than just 'some' extent, God doesn't 'waffle'. He declares the end from the beginning.

 

[agedman]

Tom that is interesting but it does raise even more questions. If He is "willing a change" then doesn't He have to change His mind to get to that point? Otherwise wouldn't He be the One who perpetrated the event to fail in the first place?
When we read to following passages how do we say of God that He is "willing a change" without regret or a change of mind?;

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

Again FAL, you seem to be missing the actual meaning of the word "repent" when it is used in connection with the Lord.

It DOES NOT mean a "change of mind" as it does in the NT when it speaks of someone repenting.

Just because I determine for my child that sitting out is justice served rather than a spanking, and I extend "pity" (another translation of the word used) on his body, doesn't mean that I have in anyway changed my mind.

Another use of the original is the word "rue" - like I rue the day I broke my ankle.

Christ rue over Jerusalem - He didn't repent, He mourned.

Apply that word to the verses you posted and you will get a better view of what is meant by repent when aligned with the Lord.

 

[agedman]

Scriptures that are subject to more than one interpretation may be interpreted in the light of clearer scripture dealing with the same issue.

For instance, against those passages which Crabtownboy quoted is this one:
I Samuel 15:29
Others may find a way, but I can't see how this verse may be interpreted any other way than what it says. It is clear and umistakable, in my view.

If this is the case, those those verses which speak of God's "repenting" or "changing his mind" must be interpreted in a way that resolves what appears to be a conflict.

I Sam 15:29 says God is not a man, so he doesn't think like a man. When we repent or change our mind, we know what we mean.

When we say God changes His will, we more accurately mean God "wills a change." Nobody really thinks God is surprised when humans change their behavior in the face of God's threatened judgment. In fact, that threat may be the means God uses to bring about a change in us.

I think such words describing God as "repenting" or "regretting" are anthropomorphisms to some extent.

Tom, I think you are correct, but with this slight modification. The "change of will" indicates again some directional determination.

God is not saying He changed His direction or wills a change of direction.

Samuel is stating that God is sighing as if in pity that Saul responded the way he did.

Genesis 6 uses the same thinking when it talks of the condition of the humankind before God selected Noah.

Again, repent when it pertains to the Lord is using a word that in no way means a change of mind or regret of some action.

I find it fascinating that the God of Heaven shows emotion toward the wayward and condemned.

It is reflective of Jesus weeping, anger, joy...

 

[freeatlast]

Again FAL, you seem to be missing the actual meaning of the word "repent" when it is used in connection with the Lord.

It DOES NOT mean a "change of mind" as it does in the NT when it speaks of someone repenting.

Just because I determine for my child that sitting out is justice served rather than a spanking, and I extend "pity" (another translation of the word used) on his body, doesn't mean that I have in anyway changed my mind.

Another use of the original is the word "rue" - like I rue the day I broke my ankle.

Christ rue over Jerusalem - He didn't repent, He mourned.

Apply that word to the verses you posted and you will get a better view of what is meant by repent when aligned with the Lord.

[SIZE=+0]This is one reason why the lost word cannot believe the bible. Even many in the claimed church do not believe it means what it says. There is absolutely no reason to believe the word means what you are suggesting. There was other words that would have worked if it meant what you are trying to suggest.
No one would or could ever read those passages and get what you are trying to suggest. The entire structure of the passages would not even support such a translation of the word.
[/SIZE]

 

[Aaron]

That He has chosen to "fix" the Future, that all things will come to pass as he predestined them, som in a sense 'fixed Himself" and subject to it happening, unable to change the results?

His name is Alpha and Omega, Beginning and End. From that revelation, the only viable conclusion is that the future is established and fixed, because He is the future. It is as unchangeable as He is.

 

[agedman]

[SIZE=+0]This is one reason why the lost word cannot believe the bible. Even many in the claimed church do not believe it means what it says. There is absolutely no reason to believe the word means what you are suggesting. There was other words that would have worked if it meant what you are trying to suggest.
No one would or could ever read those passages and get what you are trying to suggest. The entire structure of the passages would not even support such a translation of the word.
[/SIZE]

Then look it up yourself.

The word is nacham in Hebrew.

Here is an online link: http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/hebrew/nas/nacham.html


A single word nor a single verse stands to render doctrine or meaning of itself, but resides in the support of the rest of the revealed Word.

The Scripture indicates that God does not change, nor does He even consider or the thought(shadow) of changing crosses His presence, then it will cause you to apply appropriately the definition that is in accord not with your view but with the total of Scriptures.

Look through the definitions.

I am certain that you will find one that suits your fancy.

The truth of the Scriptures doesn't need me to save you conscience.

However you determine to render the meaning, it is not a word devoid of showing the parental side of God in which God who has "no shadow of turning" and does not change can and does show that He "repents, rue, groans, grieves, comforts,..." all that any Godly parent and especially Christ displays.

 

[Tom Butler]

Tom that is interesting but it does raise even more questions. If He is "willing a change" then doesn't He have to change His mind to get to that point? Otherwise wouldn't He be the One who perpetrated the event to fail in the first place?
When we read to following passages how do we say of God that He is "willing a change" without regret or a change of mind?;

And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

It repenteth me that I have set up Saul [to be] king: for he is turned back from following me, and hath not performed my commandments. And it grieved Samuel; and he cried unto the LORD all night.

I frankly wish I knew more than I do about all this. Our knowledge of what's in the Lord's mind is limited. We know what he said. But we also know that no event comes as a surprise to God.

I'm thinking of when Abraham bargained with God over Sodom. God indicated a willingness to spare the city of there were 50 righteous men there. Eventually Abraham was pleading for God's mercy if there were ten righteous people there.

God told Abraham he'd spare Sodom for fifty, forty, even ten righteous folks.

Now what was the point of that conversation? God knew there were not ten righteous people there. Why didn't he just tell Abraham that?

Was God not sincere in his promise? Of course he was. It was a teachable moment. God would spare a wicked city for the righteous' sake.

I confess this is beyond my understanding. I do know that God does not change nor lie (I Sam 15:29) God knows what he intends to do, knows the future actions of men. Anything more is above my pay grade.

 

[Winman]

Jesus himself answered this question. The scribes accused Jesus of being from the devil and casting out devils by the power of Satan.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

If God intended men to be possessed by devils, then when Jesus cast them out it would be God against himself. Jesus explained this and said that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

The devil is not God's servant, but his enemy. The devil has real freedom and power to oppose God. When Jesus cast out devils he was destroying the works of Satan, they were not working together.

God did not intend men to be evil, else when he destroyed them in the flood he would be opposing his own will. If this were so, his kingdom cannot stand.

God did not intend Saul to be disobedient. He chose Saul to be king. But when Saul rebelled against God, God repented or changed his mind that he had made Saul king and removed him.

God does not fight against himself.

 

[AresMan]

Jesus himself answered this question. The scribes accused Jesus of being from the devil and casting out devils by the power of Satan.

Mark 3:22 And the scribes which came down from Jerusalem said, He hath Beelzebub, and by the prince of the devils casteth he out devils.
23 And he called them unto him, and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
24 And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
25 And if a house be divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
27 No man can enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he will first bind the strong man; and then he will spoil his house.
28 Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme:

If God intended men to be possessed by devils, then when Jesus cast them out it would be God against himself. Jesus explained this and said that a kingdom divided against itself cannot stand.

The devil is not God's servant, but his enemy. The devil has real freedom and power to oppose God. When Jesus cast out devils he was destroying the works of Satan, they were not working together.

God did not intend men to be evil, else when he destroyed them in the flood he would be opposing his own will. If this were so, his kingdom cannot stand.

God did not intend Saul to be disobedient. He chose Saul to be king. But when Saul rebelled against God, God repented or changed his mind that he had made Saul king and removed him.

God does not fight against himself.

Is God infinite?
Is the devil finite?
Can any enemy of God challenge God and make things "hard" for Him?

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Mar_10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luk_18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

God's enemies are also His servants:

Jer_27:6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Isa_44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa_45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

 

[Aaron]

The devil has real freedom and power to oppose God.

Flying hotdogs and Dualism.

 

[Winman]

Flying hotdogs and Dualism.

The devil has real power, this is confirmed by God himself.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Lots of folks think that Satan has to get permission from God to hurt anyone. This is not true, God has only promised to protect those who obey him and are "in all thy ways" (Psa 91:11). This is the part of scripture Satan left out when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. For those who are not obedient to God, there is no promise of protection and Satan can harm them at his will.

2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

That not all people have this protection is shown by the conversation Satan had with God in Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Satan recognized that Job was not like other men, but that God had put a hedge about him, his house, and all that he had. This is because Job was very obedient to God. This protection is not promised to the disobedient.

 

[agedman]

The devil has real power, this is confirmed by God himself.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Lots of folks think that Satan has to get permission from God to hurt anyone. This is not true, God has only promised to protect those who obey him and are "in all thy ways" (Psa 91:11). This is the part of scripture Satan left out when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. For those who are not obedient to God, there is no promise of protection and Satan can harm them at his will.

2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

That not all people have this protection is shown by the conversation Satan had with God in Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Satan recognized that Job was not like other men, but that God had put a hedge about him, his house, and all that he had. This is because Job was very obedient to God. This protection is not promised to the disobedient.

I would agree with your statements and posting of Scripture. There are three (or more) indicators of Satan's power being diminished after the resurrection.

It is also important to remember that before the resurrection, Satan held the keys to hell and death. Christ now holds them.

If Christ held them prior to that time, there would be no need of the Scriptures specifically stating that such authority was transferred into His realm. The calling forth of Lazarus from the tomb and other risings from the dead in the Scriptures were direct and purposed signs (miracles) but those people did eventually die in corruption, again. We shall be raised - incorruptible.

Secondly, God specifically told Satan that he could not take the life of Job, and had Satan not had that authority, God would not have placed such a restriction upon Satan.

Third, the argument over the body of Moses did not take place in the physical realm but the spiritual. It was whether or not Mosses would be sent to hell or to paradise.

Job, just as the believer, was/is "sealed" and protected by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit. Doesn't mean we won't be banged up, and even slain, but death for us has no sting.

Satan most certainly has real power, but not for much longer.

 

[kyredneck]

....before the resurrection, Satan held the keys to hell and death........

Show me that please?

....The calling forth of Lazarus from the tomb and other risings from the dead in the Scriptures were direct and purposed signs (miracles) but those people did eventually die in corruption, again. We shall be raised - incorruptible....

....The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

'And now is', there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection, that were being made alive by Christ. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on. What do you think?

Kinda like:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. Jn 4:23

'And now is' , there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection, that were worshiping the Father in spirit and truth. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on. What do you think?

Secondly, God specifically told Satan that he could not take the life of Job, and had Satan not had that authority, God would not have placed such a restriction upon Satan.

Eh, go back and reread, Satan could only observe Job until God removed His protective hedge from around him.

Third, the argument over the body of Moses did not take place in the physical realm but the spiritual. It was whether or not Mosses would be sent to hell or to paradise.

?????

Show me that one too, please.

 

[agedman]

Show me that please?



....The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. Jn 5:25

'And now is', there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection, that were being made alive by Christ. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on. What do you think?

Kinda like:

But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. Jn 4:23

'And now is' , there were those, at the time, prior to the resurrection, that were worshiping the Father in spirit and truth. I say this is in reference to all His born from above saints, from Adam on. What do you think?

Note that the verses you posted state the future and present. They do not place the authority in the past.

Like I said, God would not have specified that Satan could not take jobs life have he not had the power to do so. Satan no longer has that power for Christ specified that authority was now in His hands - that He held the keys of death and hell.

Another reference that I gave was the argument over the body of Moses. Satan would have no such authority to argue after the resurrection.

I do not dispute with the "hedge" that God placed and places around all believers. But, the hedge doesn't void that authority once held by the enemy is now in the hands of Christ.

Eh, go back and reread, Satan could only observe Job until God removed His protective hedge from around him.



?????

Show me that one too, please.

Read above.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Flying hotdogs and Dualism.

No, Win is not suggesting that Satan has the power to somehow defeat or dominate God; only the power to oppose... a little league Baseball team has the power to oppose the New York Yankees... somehow, in their efforts to obscure the plain meaning of language, Calvinists have actually forgotten that words have meaning.

If....Satan does have the power to oppose God...and that necessitates "Dualism" please explain we are all ears....

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The devil has real power, this is confirmed by God himself.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Lots of folks think that Satan has to get permission from God to hurt anyone. This is not true, God has only promised to protect those who obey him and are "in all thy ways" (Psa 91:11). This is the part of scripture Satan left out when he tempted Jesus in the wilderness. For those who are not obedient to God, there is no promise of protection and Satan can harm them at his will.

2 Tim 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

That not all people have this protection is shown by the conversation Satan had with God in Job.

Job 1:9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?
10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.
11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Satan recognized that Job was not like other men, but that God had put a hedge about him, his house, and all that he had. This is because Job was very obedient to God. This protection is not promised to the disobedient.

:thumbsup::applause: What is this???? It's like you sort of...read the Scriptures or something....(what form of Black magic is this)??

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Is God infinite?
Is the devil finite?
Can any enemy of God challenge God and make things "hard" for Him?

Jer 32:27 Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh: is there any thing too hard for me?

Mar_10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

Luk_18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.

God's enemies are also His servants:

Jer_27:6 And now have I given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, my servant; and the beasts of the field have I given him also to serve him.

Isa_44:28 That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid.
Isa_45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;

Isa 10:5 O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
Isa 10:6 I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.
Isa 10:7 Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.
Isa 10:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.

No one in their right mind suggested that

"Can any enemy of God challenge God and make things "hard" for Him?"

After anyone other than, apparently you, makes that contention....by all means...refute it, and I (for my part) will be all positive re-enforcement. Beat the Straw man... Beat it to Death!!!...Make that particular claim PAY..make it suffer all you want, no one will oppose you.

I repeat, No one...not one person on this board will oppose you on this...as.....well no one initially claimed this....no one will.....There is one person on this board that has thus far suggested that anyone can.. and I quote:

make things "hard" for Him

and That was...DING DING DING.....you. quote anyone else please.....no Arminian, for instance, is stupid enough to say such a thing, and thus implicate God's Sovereignty. We dare not. The God that us non-Cals worship is Sovereign over all things...a statement like that will never proceed from either our lips....or our keyboards.

 

[Aaron]

No, Win is not suggesting that Satan has the power to somehow defeat or dominate God; only the power to oppose... a little league Baseball team has the power to oppose the New York Yankees... somehow, in their efforts to obscure the plain meaning of language, Calvinists have actually forgotten that words have meaning.

Yes, words have meaning, and the phrase "power to oppose" means strength to oppose.

...we are all ears....

And that's why a noncalvinist can't see past the nose on his face.