Has Modern Scholarship Rendered the Local Church Passe'

[JD731]

Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (untrained hillbillies?)

There is an unholy dependence on high profile and celebrity preachers and professors and experts and the schools and Bible institutions of so-called higher learning they have established, which highlights the problem. One would think God has abandoned his idea of the local church with God called pastors whose charge is to teach the faith and godly living to their own congregations. The negative influence of these men and institutions beginning in about 1900 AD has been devastating IMO.

Maybe the introduction of the ASV about this time caused an eruption of new Bible translations and paraphrases and consequentially a shift in the understanding of the ways of God.

From the apostle to a pastor of a local church.
2 Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

It seems from a casual reading that God has always intended the local pastors to train his own charges.

Are high celebrity authors and professors and evangelists the new apostles and prophets who teach their new translations, and if so, who called and commissioned these guys?

Who will defend this modern practice as being godly?

 

[Deacon]

Are you saying that the wide dissemination of God’s word in a variety of translations is the caused churches to become ineffective?

God has gifted his people with a variety of skills that the whole body of believers can effectively utilize.

The failure to utilize, to learn, to advance, to grow, from those so gifted, leads to stagnation.

Local congregations trapped in backward, narcissistic, self-centered practices will eventually dwindle in number.

But there will always be a few who are drawn towards simplicity of practice.

Rob

 

[DaveXR650]

Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (untrained hillbillies?)

I guess if you can't find an untrained hillbilly near you you can always find one on the internet. You do what you can.

 

[MrW]

Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (untrained hillbillies?)

There is an unholy dependence on high profile and celebrity preachers and professors and experts and the schools and Bible institutions of so-called higher learning they have established, which highlights the problem. One would think God has abandoned his idea of the local church with God called pastors whose charge is to teach the faith and godly living to their own congregations. The negative influence of these men and institutions beginning in about 1900 AD has been devastating IMO.

Maybe the introduction of the ASV about this time caused an eruption of new Bible translations and paraphrases and consequentially a shift in the understanding of the ways of God.

From the apostle to a pastor of a local church.
2 Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

It seems from a casual reading that God has always intended the local pastors to train his own charges.

Are high celebrity authors and professors and evangelists the new apostles and prophets who teach their new translations, and if so, who called and commissioned these guys?

Who will defend this modern practice as being godly?

The local church is where believers meet to worship God corporately, and to fellowship, and to study and share together, and to hear the word of God preached, and pray for one another. I don’t see where that would ever become passé, except for phony Christians, who think they don’t need the church.

 

[Van]

Acts 2:7
And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? (untrained hillbillies?)

There is an unholy dependence on high profile and celebrity preachers and professors and experts and the schools and Bible institutions of so-called higher learning they have established, which highlights the problem. One would think God has abandoned his idea of the local church with God called pastors whose charge is to teach the faith and godly living to their own congregations. The negative influence of these men and institutions beginning in about 1900 AD has been devastating IMO.

Maybe the introduction of the ASV about this time caused an eruption of new Bible translations and paraphrases and consequentially a shift in the understanding of the ways of God.

From the apostle to a pastor of a local church.
2 Ti 2:1 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.
2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

It seems from a casual reading that God has always intended the local pastors to train his own charges.

Are high celebrity authors and professors and evangelists the new apostles and prophets who teach their new translations, and if so, who called and commissioned these guys?

Who will defend this modern practice as being godly?

Outstanding Opening Post!! Thanks.

1) Yes, our presuppositions may wrongly influence our assessment of the quality and quantity of a candidate's faith. And yes, our over-dependence on "name" preachers, I'm of Calvin, I'm of MacArthur, or I'm of Stanley goes in the opposite direction of "I'm of Jesus Christ, Savior and Lord.

2) I am not sure I followed your thinking with " this modern practice as being godly?" If you are referring to the modern practice of giving to much heed to celebrity, I do not think anyone will advocate for it. I am opposed to "credentialism" whereby someone is considered if they have a degree, and rejected otherwise. I'm with MLK, we are to judge by the content of their character.

3) Scripture teaches that our local churches are to "make disciples." Jesus spend about 3 years training His disciples, and Paul certainly spend two or more years with those he trained. My discipleship training was over about 3 years, but it was off and on, a six week series here, and three month survey of the OT there.

4) Final point, your citation of 2 Timothy 2:1-2 was spot on!

a) Be strong in the "grace" refers to our obligation of providing merciful kindness, i.e. training others as disciples.
b) Among many witnesses refers to filtering what is conveyed as from Paul, such that multiple sources confirm the insight.
c) Commit to faithful people refers to training those who seem committed to making disciples.
d) Shall be able refers to the heart of your Opening Post, training future evangelists to train future evangelists. This is NOT farmed out to others, it is our duty and responsibility.
​

 

[JD731]

The local church is where believers meet to worship God corporately, and to fellowship, and to study and share together, and to hear the word of God preached, and pray for one another. I don’t see where that would ever become passé, except for phony Christians, who think they don’t need the church.

My point is that the teaching of the great doctrines of the scriptures have fallen on the shoulders of a few authors and theologians and various institutions whose writings and teachings have over time infiltrated the churches and divided the congregations as students of these various interpretations rather than sound doctrines taught by the Spirit though local pastors. Take for instance, Calvinism. There was no such doctrines as they teach until the writings of John Calvin in his "institutes." John Calvin is essentially a prophet and an apostle, writing to the churches. That is what apostles do. We already have apostles and prophets who have written all that God wanted us to have. True Christians are not called Paulinists because Paul wrote 13 letters explaining the Christian faith but we are called Christians after the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ. Look at how many local churches have been drawn into this grouping and this John Calvin has much more influence on the faith of those churches with his teaching than the apostle Paul ever did. One can use John Calvin and his celebrity followers to correct the apostle Paul, but the opposite is not true. If you do not believe me try it for yourself. Calvinism was birthed by Catholocism in the 16th century and I have read where his mentor was Augustine, an African man man who is often touted to be the father of the Catholic church. You can tell a tree by the fruit it bears.

But, I do not want to pick on Calvinists. One's understanding nowadays seems to be from books and writings and big time evangelists and the Chritian book stores full of books by all kinds of authors with different doctrinal opinions and a series of new Bibles to prove them.

You probably will not accept this statement by Jesus Christ as being a prophecy of the very days we are living in just before the harvest of this age but it is true nevertheless.

Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

There has been an effort by the angels to separate the tares into bundles to prepare them to be burned since 1901, IMO.. There are several big bundles now. However, they will gather the wheat, which are not in bundles, but some of the wheat are even scattered in the different bundles, that the angels will gather out ahead of the burning. This is the rapture of the church that the tares do not believe in because their celebrities says it is not true..

Matthew is the overview of God on this whole age pictured as a growing season from the beginning of the preaching of the word of God after the resurrection until the rapture of the church and the second coming of Christ, which is the havest.

You probably do not agree with any of this , but I can't help it.

 

[Van]

A corollary to Timothy needing to filter what he hears Paul taught, through the witness of multiple people, is that our local churches should be led by a plurality of Elders (leaders) rather than just one "kingpin" who dictates doctrine.

If others have not independently come to the same understanding, a red flag should arise in our minds as to the veracity of the teaching. OTOH, the phenomena of "group think" might result in a whole slew of misguided witness.

When we make disciples, they should wary of false doctrine, no matter which direction from which it comes.

 

[JD731]

Are you saying that the wide dissemination of God’s word in a variety of translations is the caused churches to become ineffective?

God has gifted his people with a variety of skills that the whole body of believers can effectively utilize.

The failure to utilize, to learn, to advance, to grow, from those so gifted, leads to stagnation.

Local congregations trapped in backward, narcissistic, self-centered practices will eventually dwindle in number.

But there will always be a few who are drawn towards simplicity of practice.

Rob

Thank you for your question Rob, and my answer is a hearty YES.

God thinks heaping teachers together is unhealthy for the welfare the churches. Notice in this next quote that the word "heap of teachers" is plural.

2 Tim 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is instruction and warning to a pastor of a single congregation.

 

[Dave G]

There is an unholy dependence on high profile and celebrity preachers and professors and experts and the schools and Bible institutions of so-called higher learning they have established, which highlights the problem.

I agree, to a great extent.

One would think God has abandoned his idea of the local church with God called pastors whose charge is to teach the faith and godly living to their own congregations.

I know that He hasn't abandoned it, but in my 46+ years of being a believer, I've yet to experience anything like what is described in the above statement.
In other words, I've never actually been in a New Testament church with elders ( pastors, deacons and so forth )...

But I have been in many places that are modeled after it.

Are high celebrity authors and professors and evangelists the new apostles and prophets who teach their new translations, and if so, who called and commissioned these guys?

As I see it, men and their ideas about God did.

 

[JD731]

I agree, to a great extent.

I know that He hasn't abandoned it, but in my 46+ years of being a believer, I've yet to experience anything like what is described in the above statement.
In other words, I've never actually been in a New Testament church with elders ( pastors, deacons and so forth )...

But I have been in many places that are modeled after it.

As I see it, men and their ideas about God did.

Outstanding Opening Post!! Thanks.

1) Yes, our presuppositions may wrongly influence our assessment of the quality and quantity of a candidate's faith. And yes, our over-dependence on "name" preachers, I'm of Calvin, I'm of MacArthur, or I'm of Stanley goes in the opposite direction of "I'm of Jesus Christ, Savior and Lord.

2) I am not sure I followed your thinking with " this modern practice as being godly?" If you are referring to the modern practice of giving to much heed to celebrity, I do not think anyone will advocate for it. I am opposed to "credentialism" whereby someone is considered if they have a degree, and rejected otherwise. I'm with MLK, we are to judge by the content of their character.

3) Scripture teaches that our local churches are to "make disciples." Jesus spend about 3 years training His disciples, and Paul certainly spend two or more years with those he trained. My discipleship training was over about 3 years, but it was off and on, a six week series here, and three month survey of the OT there.

4) Final point, your citation of 2 Timothy 2:1-2 was spot on!

a) Be strong in the "grace" refers to our obligation of providing merciful kindness, i.e. training others as disciples.
b) Among many witnesses refers to filtering what is conveyed as from Paul, such that multiple sources confirm the insight.
c) Commit to faithful people refers to training those who seem committed to making disciples.
d) Shall be able refers to the heart of your Opening Post, training future evangelists to train future evangelists. This is NOT farmed out to others, it is our duty and responsibility.​

​

I guess if you can't find an untrained hillbilly near you you can always find one on the internet. You do what you can.

Thanks Dave G and Van and Dave for your contributions to my thread. I just think the wheel has run off and that these are dangerous times for the church of God.
and it is just as God said it will be near the end. Many things we have thought were good were really bad.

 

[MrW]

My point is that the teaching of the great doctrines of the scriptures have fallen on the shoulders of a few authors and theologians and various institutions whose writings and teachings have over time infiltrated the churches and divided the congregations as students of these various interpretations rather than sound doctrines taught by the Spirit though local pastors. Take for instance, Calvinism. There was no such doctrines as they teach until the writings of John Calvin in his "institutes." John Calvin is essentially a prophet and an apostle, writing to the churches. That is what apostles do. We already have apostles and prophets who have written all that God wanted us to have. True Christians are not called Paulinists because Paul wrote 13 letters explaining the Christian faith but we are called Christians after the founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ. Look at how many local churches have been drawn into this grouping and this John Calvin has much more influence on the faith of those churches with his teaching than the apostle Paul ever did. One can use John Calvin and his celebrity followers to correct the apostle Paul, but the opposite is not true. If you do not believe me try it for yourself. Calvinism was birthed by Catholocism in the 16th century and I have read where his mentor was Augustine, an African man man who is often touted to be the father of the Catholic church. You can tell a tree by the fruit it bears.

But, I do not want to pick on Calvinists. One's understanding nowadays seems to be from books and writings and big time evangelists and the Chritian book stores full of books by all kinds of authors with different doctrinal opinions and a series of new Bibles to prove them.

You probably will not accept this statement by Jesus Christ as being a prophecy of the very days we are living in just before the harvest of this age but it is true nevertheless.

Matt 13:24 Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

There has been an effort by the angels to separate the tares into bundles to prepare them to be burned since 1901, IMO.. There are several big bundles now. However, they will gather the wheat, which are not in bundles, but some of the wheat are even scattered in the different bundles, that the angels will gather out ahead of the burning. This is the rapture of the church that the tares do not believe in because their celebrities says it is not true..

Matthew is the overview of God on this whole age pictured as a growing season from the beginning of the preaching of the word of God after the resurrection until the rapture of the church and the second coming of Christ, which is the havest.

You probably do not agree with any of this , but I can't help it.

Excellent. I do agree, except I would have said some people think Calvin was an apostle/prophet. It seems he thought himself a Protestant Pope, even to the point of promoting the killing of those who disagreed with him, as our Lord Jesus prophesied, “They will think they do God service.” John 16:2. By killing other Christians!